Hawkaholic
Registered User
I'm just going to agree to disagree that a coach can always turn a player into an elite defensive player if the player puts in the work.
It's just not a reality, at least not in my eyes.
The Great Michal Kempny Debate (& other ex-Hawks) Volume 4
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It's just not a reality, at least not in my eyes.
ChiHawks10
Registered User
I don't think this was said. It was just stated that good defense is not necessarily all talent. That a lot of defense is effort. Which is true. Laziness accounts for a big reason why players aren't good defensively. When Kane wants to play solid defense, he can. He doesn't because he's lazy the vast majority of the time. Flying the zone early, back-checking slowly, not hustling in his own zone or neutral zone to loose pucks, etc.
Then you see every once in a while, he's the first guy back, he's down low helping out, and he's generally in good position. Particularly in the playoffs more than anything.
Do you think that Kane isn't good defensively because he can't be? Sorry, but a player that talented can be amazing on both sides of the puck. The fact that he's not is because he chooses not to be, and when you're one of the top 5 players in the NHL, you're afforded that choice. A player with that kind of hockey IQ and vision can be an amazing defender, also, as he'll be just as good at reading the plays/seeing the ice on the defensive side as he is on the offensive side. Again, he chooses not to be.
Who the f*** is talking about "an elite defensive player" here? We are talking about guys playing two-way, fundamental hockey. Which is all that is required for good TEAM DEFENSE. This is why teams that play for certain coaches pretty much always have a top 10 GAA... Their defensive roles are emphasized in PRACTICE and they are accountable for those responsibilities.
The point was made that the Hawks have a team full of one-dimensional players, and that's why their team defense sucks. I call bullshit. The wingers, to a man, all collapse too low in the defensive zone, and are nowhere near the opposing point men. Their zone defense is atrocious, and it certainly looks like they are being TOLD to do what they do. Unless every winger on the Hawks just happens to be making the same mistakes in defensive zone coverage? I find that absolutely unbelievable.
In the offensive zone, the Hawks DO NOT ROTATE properly when a defenseman activates. They also fail to keep a forward high the large majority of the time.... So they are getting burned 3 on 2 and 4 on 2 constantly. These are not problems with the players, and these are not difficult defensive concepts to grasp.... These are ACCOUNTABILITY issues. These are things the coaching staff is quite obviously not emphasizing to the forwards, or holding them accountable for. Players don't make it to the NHL without knowing these basic f***ing concepts of team defense... These are responsibilities and positioning that even beer league players comprehend. The Hawks are making FUNDAMENTAL MISTAKES on a nightly basis. That's 100% on the coaching staff.
ChiHawks10
Registered User
I've yelled at my TV way too many times already this year: "A forward needs to cover for the f***ing D jumping in!" and every time, it turns into a 2 on 1, or a 3-1, or 3-2. This should not happen at the pro level, because as you said, it rarely happens in our men's league games.
It's like our D got more active, and/or got a longer leash with activating in the O zone... but the forwards just don't pay attention to it, and odd-man breaks are the result. It has happened with Seabs numerous times. He's up on the rush in like a 3-2 with two forwards, and the late forward keeps breaking down into the zone down low... leaving one D sitting back by himself. Pick your head up and look around. If a D and two forwards are in an odd-man rush... you have to stay back, as the third forward. This all depends on the personnel, also, obviously.
Marotte Marauder
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- Aug 10, 2008
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And then construct an effective PP scheme to sprinkle in more offense. That isn't rocket science either. But I digress.
BobbyJet
watch the game, everything else is noise
Wow indeed. Just what do you think a good coach does? Open the gate and scramble the lines and hope something works? If so, you should be happy then, 'cause that pretty much describes coach Q; you can also add, he insists on "active sticks" of course.
BobbyJet
watch the game, everything else is noise
At ES at aleast the above describes the current Hawks team to a tee. Fundamentals that are taught at the peewee level are not taking place. It's unacceptable.
ChiHawk21
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- Jan 15, 2011
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selke winners norris winners...but must have just forgot to teach the others how to play defense. cmon this is the NHL.
adam oats has carved out a job because teaching individual skills and things like learning to be a better defensive player is not what happens in the nhl.
BobbyJet
watch the game, everything else is noise
ChiHawk21
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im not even sure what u are saying. its Qs fault that some players arent good defensively?
BobbyJet
watch the game, everything else is noise
They're not executing defensively and that's why they are not good. There is a big difference. I see a bunch of individuals on the ice much of the time, not a team. Again Hawks are defying the fundamentals of team (defensive) play and it is killing them.
ChiHawk21
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"Two-way play is mostly about effort. You aren't born poor defensively as a forward. You are ALLOWED to play that way by the coaching staff and the system"
And im responding to this comment about individual players defensive play. Q is very much in charge of the teams defensive approach to the game. So we are talking about two different things.
So what is the job of the coaching staff, if not making sure that all of the players know their responsibilities in the system, and are executing them?
Here's what it ultimately comes down to. There can only be so many causes of the dysfunctional team defense we are witnessing. Either...
The coaching staff is instructing the players on their defensive scheme and their responsibilities, and pretty much every player on the team is failing to execute as instructed...(no player buy in, bad communication, the defensive scheme makes no sense?)
or
The coaching staff is instructing the players on their defensive scheme and their responsibilities, and the majority of the players ARE executing as instructed....(the scheme is inherently flawed?)
or
The coaching staff isn't properly instructing the players on their defensive scheme and their responsibilities....(total failure of the coaching staff)
Which of these is NOT on the coaching staff? Or should we believe that almost every player on the Hawks simply doesn't understand fundamental team defense?? Because if you believe that, I have some swampland to sell you.
The coaching staff is instructing the players on their defensive scheme and their responsibilities, and pretty much every player on the team is failing to execute as instructed...(no player buy in, bad communication, the defensive scheme makes no sense?)
or
The coaching staff is instructing the players on their defensive scheme and their responsibilities, and the majority of the players ARE executing as instructed....(the scheme is inherently flawed?)
or
The coaching staff isn't properly instructing the players on their defensive scheme and their responsibilities....(total failure of the coaching staff)
Which of these is NOT on the coaching staff? Or should we believe that almost every player on the Hawks simply doesn't understand fundamental team defense?? Because if you believe that, I have some swampland to sell you.
BobbyJet
watch the game, everything else is noise
I think all of the above is taking place at certain points in every game to date. Some games worse than others but Hawks look like a disorganized bunch without the puck and it seems to be magnified by the speedier teams. With the inexperience on the roster, you expect a learning curve where things will be rough but when we witness things like the second period against TB one can see how bad it really is.
Hawkaholic
Registered User
My bad, you said its up to the player to put in the effort (and coaching), and he can become a good defensive player. And I don't entirely agree that every player can, regardless of the effort they put in. I'm don't know why you want on that big ramble, but it really has nothing to do with what I was arguing, so maybe it was a misunderstanding. It's pretty obvious with proper coaching that a team can improve their defense as a team. But not every NHL player gets better defensively on their own. Kane still sucks defensively, and how many times have we heard him say he wants to get better? I'm not talking about improving in small increments, like maybe he has.
All I was saying was that great defensive players aren't great because they try harder and have better coaching. They are naturally talented at it, just like Kane is naturally talented offensive player, and it takes a special player with a high hockey IQ for every aspect, and a built in recognition of where to be on the ice that not every player has, or learns. It seemed you and others were disagreeing and saying that it's only effort and coaching that separate the two.
You know why Kane sucks defensively? Because he puts in very little effort on the defensive side of the puck. He is just flat out lazy without the puck, unless he chooses not to be... It is clear as day. He gets away with it because he is so damn talented offensively.
There is no such thing as a "naturally talented" defensive forward, because you cannot be good defensively without working your ass off on both sides of the ice.
There is no such thing as a "naturally talented" defensive forward, because you cannot be good defensively without working your ass off on both sides of the ice.
Hawkaholic
Registered User
Even when he skates his ass off defensively he still hasn't a clue what to do in his own end. There are many players that skate their ass off and aren't very good defensively. There is absolutely a natural talent to being able to be a very good defensive player. It's not just about skating your ass off and proper coaching.
Was Keith a Norris winner because he skated his ass off and had proper coaching?
When does Kane skate his ass off defensively? Point it out for me next time you see it, because it happens once every 10-15 games.
Hawkaholic
Registered User
Let's not forget Q's defensive philosophy, according to Brian Campbell, who spent plenty of time in their system.
-only let goalie be screened by opposing player (don’t create a double screen by battling the opposing player in front of the goalie)
-block wristers (if attempting a block, you better make sure you block it rather than interfering with the goalie’s vision of the shot)
-if not blocking wristers, stand to the side to let goalie have clean look
-tie up sticks
Campbell said, “getting sticks and lifting them to the rafters and making sure they’re up in the air so they don’t have a opportunity to tip it is the best way of going about the business in front of your net.”
Recipe for success.
-only let goalie be screened by opposing player (don’t create a double screen by battling the opposing player in front of the goalie)
-block wristers (if attempting a block, you better make sure you block it rather than interfering with the goalie’s vision of the shot)
-if not blocking wristers, stand to the side to let goalie have clean look
-tie up sticks
Campbell said, “getting sticks and lifting them to the rafters and making sure they’re up in the air so they don’t have a opportunity to tip it is the best way of going about the business in front of your net.”
Recipe for success.
Finally a hawk fan on here that says something about Kane that isn’t Man love.
Let’s also talk about how Saad and nick were demoted and benched for being lazy (while playing with Kane) and now Saad looks like a different player with effort after wearing the white jersey.
q never ever seems to hold Kane accountable for lazy no effort fly out of the zone, hoping for the leak out stretch pass, selfish play.
ChiHawks10
Registered User
He's a top 5-10 player in the NHL... those guys don't get benched often, no matter what.
DisgruntledHawkFan
Blackhawk Down
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