The great Kadri vs Kerfoot debate thread.

[4thline]

They don't post their data online, for Leafs fans to prop up their team/favorite players.

Close!

But the actual answer is that all of their stats departments are either founded by/lead by/ heavily contributed to by ... gasp... former bloggers!

 

[Bomber0104]

Close!

But the actual answer is that all of their stats departments are either founded by/lead by/ heavily contributed to by ... gasp... former bloggers!

So rather than looking at the stats themselves, their significance/validity/confidence/etc...

You focus your attention on how many bloggers got hired to an internship?

Does this give the NHL.com data-scraped blogger statistics credibility to you?

 

[Dekes For Days]

He explicitly stated that the public domain stats tell about one-fifth of the picture.

Compared to in-house stats, not compared to traditional stats or the eye test.

 

[Bomber0104]

Compared to in-house stats, not compared to traditional stats or the eye test.

And again, the eye-test is what drives NHL teams' data collation.

You're clearly getting lost somewhere.

 

[Dekes For Days]

And again, the eye-test is what drives in-house stats.

No, recording data is not the same thing as attempting qualitative evaluations/comparisons based on your eyes, especially as a casual fan.

 

[Bomber0104]

No, recording data is not the same thing as attempting qualitative evaluations/comparisons based on your eyes.

Teams' in-house data was recorded by someone watching the game. Do you think this stuff just magically appears out of no-where?

In-house stats are recording magnitudes more data than the bare-bones amount the NHL.com (inaccurately and incompletely) records on a nightly basis, which make their own models orders of magnitude more accurate than the freeblogstats.com's

What are you even arguing at this point?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Teams' in-house data was recorded by someone watching the game.

Yes, recording specific data, which is not what people here are doing when they talk about the "eye test", especially as a casual fan. It's a completely different thing.

In-house stats are recording magnitudes more data

Than publicly available statistics, which are recording magnitudes more data than traditional statistics and the eye test.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Like I've always said, there's people that know how to watch a game and there's people that know how to utilize stats.

On the flip side of that, there's people that don't know how to watch a game and there's people that don't know how to utilize stats.

More accurately, there are people who know how to watch the games, and know how to utilize statistics to better inform their observations, evaluations, and conclusions. On the flip side of that, there are some people who believe that contrary to the realities of human observation, their eyes are infallible and they are able to do things in isolation, as a casual fan no less, that are literally impossible, so they obnoxiously dismiss all effective tools at their disposal, leading them to incorrect evaluations and conclusions.

 

[Bomber0104]

More accurately, there are people who know how to watch the games, and know how to utilize statistics to better inform their observations, evaluations, and conclusions. On the flip side of that, there are some people who believe that contrary to the realities of human observation, their eyes are infallible and they are able to do things in isolation, as a casual fan no less, that are literally impossible, so they obnoxiously dismiss all effective tools at their disposal, leading them to incorrect evaluations and conclusions.

{REPEATED FROM THE LAST POST THAT YOU SELECTIVELY DELETED}

Your problem (and it's a big one) is that you assume literally no person on Earth can watch a game of hockey and understand it better than what the NHL.com can (inaccurately and incompletely) scrape onto a blog stat database.

{REPEATED FROM THE LAST POST THAT YOU SELECTIVELY DELETED}

 

[Dekes For Days]

Your problem (and it's a big one) is that you assume literally no person on Earth can watch a game of hockey and understand it better than what the NHL.com can (inaccurately and incompletely) scrape onto a blog stat database.

I deleted it for a reason. Not only is that a strawman, but the way you phrased it is inherently dishonest and inaccurate. See my previous reply.

 

[Bomber0104]

I deleted it for a reason. Not only is that a strawman, the way you phrased it is inherently dishonest and inaccurate. See my previous reply.

You deleted it because you can't answer it.

You've copped out completely.

I'm sorry you have no answer

 

[Dekes For Days]

You deleted it because you can't answer it.

I deleted it because it was a strawman based on inaccurate statements, used as a deflection from the actual point. See post #284 for my answer.

 

[Bomber0104]

I deleted it because it was a strawman based on inaccurate statements, used as a deflection from the actual point. See post #284 for my answer.

Blog stats like Expected Goals / Corsi are made from poorly-devised models which are scraped from the incomplete and inaccurate data publicized by the NHL.com.

Yes or No?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Blog stats like Expected Goals / Corsi are made from poorly-devised models which are scraped from the incomplete and inaccurate data publicized by the NHL.com.
Yes or No?

Your statement is inaccurate, and says nothing about their effectiveness in informing conclusions relative to traditional stats or the "eye test", especially when used in conjunction with other statistics.

 

[Bomber0104]

Your statement is inaccurate,

I asked you a yes or no question, and not only do you not respond but you say it's "inaccurate" without a shred of evidence/support/backup...

Is this how your high school teacher taught you how to debate?

Come on. Back up what you say!

What specifically is "inaccurate"?

 

[zeke]

What are we even debating here?

Which of these stats is misleading, exactly?

Under Keefe:

#16 ca/60
#17 ca/60
#17 fa/60
#17 sa/60
#16 sca/60
#17 hdca/60
#10 xga/60
#17 ga/60
#20 sv%

#7 cf/60
#6 ff/60
#5 sf/60
#2 scf/60
#8 hdcf/60
#3 xgf/60
#1 gf/60
#5 sh%


#9 cf%
#10 ff%
#11 sf%
#6 scf%
#8 hdcf%
#4 xgf%
#6 gf%
#9 pdo

#8 pts%
#4 row%

 

[Bomber0104]

What are we even debating here?

Which of these stats is misleading, exactly?

Under Keefe:

#16 ca/60
#17 ca/60
#17 fa/60
#17 sa/60
#16 sca/60
#17 hdca/60
#10 xga/60
#17 ga/60
#20 sv%

#7 cf/60
#6 ff/60
#5 sf/60
#2 scf/60
#8 hdcf/60
#3 xgf/60
#1 gf/60
#5 sh%


#9 cf%
#10 ff%
#11 sf%
#6 scf%
#8 hdcf%
#4 xgf%
#6 gf%
#9 pdo

#8 pts%
#4 row%

Barely made the playoffs.

 

[zeke]

Barely made the playoffs.

Took the 25th place team after 1/3 of the season all the way to 13th at the end of the year, by helping them to the 8th best record over those last 2/3.

Even with plain bad goaltending, and an injury ravaged dcorps.

 

[Bomber0104]

Took the 25th place team after 1/3 of the season all the way to 13th at the end of the year, by helping them to the 8th best record over those last 2/3.

Even with plain bad goaltending, and an injury ravaged dcorps.

And barely even made the playoffs.

They could have used a top-pairing defenceman like Nikita Zaitsev eh? lol

 

[zeke]

And barely even made the playoffs.

They could have used a top-pairing defenceman like Nikita Zaitsev eh? lol

Taking a 25th place team after 23gms to 13th after 70gms is fantastic. Full stop.

 

[LeafsNation75]

And barely even made the playoffs.

They could have used a top-pairing defenceman like Nikita Zaitsev eh? lol

You do remember that Nikita Zaitsev asked for a trade and Kyle Dubas was more than happy to get rid of his $4.5 million AAV with 5 years left.

 

[Bomber0104]

Taking a 25th place team after 23gms to 13th after 70gms is fantastic. Full stop.

Having JT, Mitch, and Hyman back probably helped.

Woulda been great with a top-pairing defenceman like Zaitsev too

 

[Dekes For Days]

Having JT, Mitch, and Hyman back probably helped.

They were more injured under Keefe.

 

[LeafsNation75]

They were more injured under Keefe.

At one point with Keefe they lost both Morgan Rielly and Jake Muzzin to injuries at the same time. Plus there was also injuries to Andreas Johnsson and Ilya Mikheyev.

Let's not forget when Mitch Marner got injured in the first game of their six game losing streak that got Mike Babcock fired and that was originally on November 9, 2019 against Philadelphia and he didn't return until December 4, 2019 against Colorado when Keefe was the coach.

 

[Bomber0104]

They were more injured under Keefe.

All three players were injured when Babcock was the coach of the team.

You're not only just cutting and pasting posts, deleting sections, ignoring others, but bow you're resorting to lying?

What a sad situation.