The Goalie Discussion

[Honour Over Glory]

??? I haven't read anything like this in the thread.

The whole topic which spans like 3 threads that is now this new one.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I should also add that I don't really care either way which goalie starts in the playoffs, because neither of these guys are going to steal a series and the Penguins won't lose because of goaltending. If the Penguins lose in the playoffs, it's going to be a lack of goal scoring. That's what happened in 2019, 2018, 2015, 2014 and 2013. Based on Guentzel's injury with the trend their offense has shown (see below) makes me even more sure that a loss this year would be a result of not being able to score. It doesn't matter if your goalie is putting up a .930 save% or a .910 save% if you're not averaging even 2 goals a game in a series.

 

[cheesedanish87]

If you wanna know who Sully views as his number 1 goalie right now wait till Sunday and see who he starts against the Caps, he's going to start the goalie he feels the best about for that game.

I have all the faith in the world Sully will start the right goalie, one of his strength's since he's been coach is plays the best goalie.

He benched a fan favorite HOF goalie for a rookie in 2015.

He benched a 2 time cup champion last year for CDS.

He benched Murray again this year for a rookie in Jarry.

Sully will play the best goalie.

 

[Empoleon8771]

No, that’s saying Lehner was able to stifle our scorers more than Murray was able to stifle the Isles’ scorers...there’s two sides playing here...since goaltending is the prime reason teams WIN (not lose) in the POs, it’s completely fair to say Murray didn’t win them those series the way he won them series in 2016-17

It's downright asinine to blame the goalie for not being good enough when your top scorers can't score. Sorry, I don't know of another way to put it. That's putting absurd expectations on your goalie if he needs to compensate for failures in the rest of your lineup. That's not even something Lundqvist is capable of doing.

Murray is neither good enough to do that or paid enough where you should expect him to do that. It's a totally unfair way to evaluate him with that.

 

[cheesedanish87]

I find it odd that JR(unless I missed it) hasn't really said much about the goalies.

The Pens goalies is probably the biggest talking point in the media right now along with the trade deadline.

Not sure if the media isn't asking him about them or he just doesn't want to comment on it.

 

[kladorf2005]

I'm going to be really blunt here, I don't know why people think this should be a "fair competition" between Murray and Jarry for who the starter is. Matt Murray is this team's starting goalie, that's just a fact. Jarry being great and Murray struggling for 20-25 games shouldn't put that into doubt. Jarry does not have the NHL resume where he should be viewed as an equal to Murray.

Sullivan should be playing the hot hand in the regular season, that's fine. I don't see an issue with that. But let's not kid anyone here, Murray is the starting goalie as long as he's not playing like crap. If Murray is playing well at the end of the year, he's starting in the playoffs, even if Jarry is better. Fans are so trigger happy to anoint a new starting goalie but teams just don't operate like that. It's the same way that Fleury wasn't made the starting goalie by Sullivan in the 2017 run. As soon as Murray was healthy and Fleury slipped up, Murray regained the net and never gave it up.

You're out to lunch if you honestly believe MM is hands down this team's starting goalie. If Jarry is playing better, it's Jarry's net. It really is that simple. If they are playing equally, I'll give you Murray based on his experience. But right now, as of this moment, they aren't playing equally.

Your 2017 Murray/Fleury example is a bad one. That had so much to do with the expansion draft. Everyone knew Fleury was gone. Murray was the future of the franchise (at the time), and to not put him back in net when it was reasonable to do so, could have been a career killer. Especially with how fragile goalies tend to be (mentally) compared to other positions.

 

[Empoleon8771]

You're out to lunch if you honestly believe MM is hands down this team's starting goalie. If Jarry is playing better, it's Jarry's net. It really is that simple. If they are playing equally, I'll give you Murray based on his experience. But right now, as of this moment, they aren't playing equally.

Your 2017 Murray/Fleury example is a bad one. That had so much to do with the expansion draft. Everyone knew Fleury was gone. Murray was the future of the franchise (at the time), and to not put him back in net when it was reasonable to do so, could have been a career killer. Especially how fragile goalies tend to be compared to other positions.

Are you joking me right now? How can you say this with a straight face?

Instead of Murray/Fleury, why don't I point out Holtby/Grubauer in 2018? Holtby was actually bad enough at the end of the year in 2018 that Grubauer actually started in the playoffs. It lasted 2 games before Holtby got his net back. The only people who are "out to lunch" here are people that think that any team in the NHL would take away the starting goalie title from their established starting goalie because of a 25 game sample size from October to January. Give me a single example of a team who made an unproven young goalie their new starter over their established starter because of play during the first half of the year. Hell, we can point to DeSmith last year as more proof that teams don't do that.

 

[Khelandros]

Are you joking me right now? How can you say this with a straight face?

Instead of Murray/Fleury, why don't I point out Holtby/Grubauer in 2018? Holtby was actually bad enough at the end of the year in 2018 that Grubauer actually started in the playoffs. It lasted 2 games before Holtby got his net back. The only people who are "out to lunch" here are people that think that any team in the NHL would take away the starting goalie title from their established starting goalie because of a 25 game sample size from October to January. Give me a single example of a team who made an unproven young goalie their new starter over their established starter because of play during the first half of the year. Hell, we can point to DeSmith last year as more proof that teams don't do that.

St. Louis. Last year.

 

[kladorf2005]

Are you joking me right now? How can you say this with a straight face?

Instead of Murray/Fleury, why don't I point out Holtby/Grubauer in 2018? Holtby was actually bad enough at the end of the year in 2018 that Grubauer actually started in the playoffs. It lasted 2 games before Holtby got his net back. The only people who are "out to lunch" here are people that think that any team in the NHL would take away the starting goalie title from their established starting goalie because of a 25 game sample size from October to January. Give me a single example of a team who made an unproven young goalie their new starter over their established starter because of play during the first half of the year. Hell, we can point to DeSmith last year as more proof that teams don't do that.

Not joking you. IF Jarry is playing better, Jarry will start. Simple as that.

If the Pens come out flat and lose the first two games of the playoffs, I can see Murray getting his net back. Fine. But that's not the point.

The reverse is also true though. If Murray rebounds the second half and earns his net back, but then the team puts up stinkers in the first two games, Murray is out and it's Jarry's turn. One thing I'm confident is the Pens will not get swept in the first around again with Murray playing all 4 games. Nor with Jarry playing all 4 games.

You painting this picture of the Pens having a clear #1 in Murray though is just flat out wrong. It's definitely a 1a/1b situation with Jarry sitting in the 1a position at this very moment.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Not joking you. IF Jarry is playing better, Jarry will start. Simple as that.

If the Pens come out flat and lose the first two games of the playoffs, I can see Murray getting his net back. Fine. But that's not the point.

The reverse is also true though. If Murray rebounds the second half and earns his net back, but then the team puts up stinkers in the first two games, Murray is out and it's Jarry's turn. One thing I'm confident is the Pens will not get swept in the first around again with Murray playing all 4 games. Nor with Jarry playing all 4 games.

You painting this picture of the Pens have a clear #1 though is just flat out wrong.

Give me a single example of a team actually operating like that. If it's that simple, you should be able to provide examples of teams who have done that. Give me a single example of a team who had an established #1 goalie, which Murray was coming into this year (and you'd have to be insane to argue otherwise), because of a 25 game sample size to start the year.

Based on how NHL teams actually act, Murray is still their #1 goalie. Teams don't push aside their established starters for the hot new kid coming out of the AHL. They just don't do that. Provide examples of teams doing that, because I have a bunch that show they didn't do that. Murray/DeSmith last year, Holtby/Grubauer in 2018, Howard/Mrazek in 2016, Lundqvist/Raanta in 2017, Lundqvist/Talbot in 2015, Allen/Hutton in 2018...the list goes on. We have a bunch of examples of backup goalies outperforming starters over entire seasons, yet those starters never lose their starting status. The backup may play more games, but the starter is starting in the playoffs or a majority of the games every single time. You need to have 2016 Murray levels of success to upend a seasoned starter. Had Murray not won the 2016 cup, they would have traded him and kept Fleury.

 

[kladorf2005]

Give me a single example of a team actually operating like that. If it's that simple, you should be able to provide examples of teams who have done that. Give me a single example of a team who had an established #1 goalie, which Murray was coming into this year (and you'd have to be insane to argue otherwise), because of a 25 game sample size to start the year.

Based on how NHL teams actually act, Murray is still their #1 goalie. Teams don't push aside their established starters for the hot new kid coming out of the AHL. They just don't do that. Provide examples of teams doing that, because I have a bunch that show they didn't do that. Murray/DeSmith last year, Holtby/Grubauer in 2018, Howard/Mrazek in 2016, Lundqvist/Raanta in 2017, Lundqvist/Talbot in 2015, Allen/Hutton in 2018...the list goes on.

You already said it. Holtby/Grubauer in 2018. Caps needed a shakeup and went back to Holtby AFTER Grubby started the first two games. I'm not understanding how that wasn't a 1a/1b situation?

If the Caps had so much as gotten a split in those first two games, we wouldn't even be talking about this. Stop being results oriented. Caps gave Grubby the nod in the playoffs because he was playing better. This situation we have in Pittsburgh this year is almost EXACTLY the same.

 

[PensandCaps]

St. Louis. Last year.

except jake allen is a scrub.

not a comparable situation

 

[Empoleon8771]

You already said it. Holtby/Grubauer in 2018. Caps needed a shakeup and went back to Holtby AFTER Grubby started the first two games. I'm not understanding how that wasn't a 1a/1b situation?

If the Caps had so much as gotten a split in those first two games, we wouldn't even be talking about this. Stop being results oriented. Caps gave Grubby the nod in the playoffs because he was playing better. This situation we have in Pittsburgh this year is almost EXACTLY the same.

That happened because Holtby sucked to end the 2017-2018 season. And seeing how they pulled the plug on that real fast and never went back to Grubauer, I'm willing to bet that Holtby was the starter all along and they felt they had to go to Grubauer because Hotlyb wasn't good. And seeing how Grubauer was traded after the year, I'm pretty willing to say that's what happened.

Stop being results oriented? I'm looking at how teams have actually treated goalies to get an idea for how teams treat goalies. You're just arbitrarily saying "Jarry starts if he's better" because you're not paying attention to how teams actually treat their starters. Again, the only way Jarry starts in the playoffs is if Murray plays himself out of the net. That's the requirement.

 

[PensandCaps]

whats funny to me is that Murray outplayed MAF last season and is going to again this year.

 

[kladorf2005]

That happened because Holtby sucked to end the 2017-2018 season. And seeing how they pulled the plug on that real fast and never went back to Grubauer, I'm willing to bet that Holtby was the starter all along and they felt they had to go to Grubauer because Hotlyb wasn't good. And seeing how Grubauer was traded after the year, I'm pretty willing to say that's what happened.

Stop being results oriented? I'm looking at how teams have actually treated goalies to get an idea for how teams treat goalies. You're just arbitrarily saying "Jarry starts if he's better" because you're not paying attention to how teams actually treat their starters. Again, the only way Jarry starts in the playoffs is if Murray plays himself out of the net. That's the requirement.

I'm not paying attention to how teams actually treat their starters? Yet you brush off the fact that Grubby started the playoffs for the Caps. He only got yanked due to the fact that they went down 0-2 at home as a heavy favorite.

Why don't you think the Pens could approach it the exact same way? If the playoffs started tomorrow, Jarry would start. If the Pens go down 0-2, time to go get Murray out of the bullpen. That is literally the definition of 1a/1b. That is literally what happened with Grubby/Holtby

I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall here.

 

[Empoleon8771]

except jake allen is a scrub.

not a comparable situation

To be fair, I think Allen is one of the best examples you can use. You can pretty fairly point out that he was a bad starting goalie, which Murray certainly isn't, but he does fit that. Allen is an example of a team's starter sucking to start the year (.897 save% through 36 games), losing his starter's position to a young goalie and not getting it back despite playing well to end the year (.930 save% in 10 games). The big differences? Allen doesn't have 2 cups, he had been kinda **** for the previous 2 years and the Blues were dead last in the NHL.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Are you joking me right now? How can you say this with a straight face?

Instead of Murray/Fleury, why don't I point out Holtby/Grubauer in 2018? Holtby was actually bad enough at the end of the year in 2018 that Grubauer actually started in the playoffs. It lasted 2 games before Holtby got his net back. The only people who are "out to lunch" here are people that think that any team in the NHL would take away the starting goalie title from their established starting goalie because of a 25 game sample size from October to January. Give me a single example of a team who made an unproven young goalie their new starter over their established starter because of play during the first half of the year. Hell, we can point to DeSmith last year as more proof that teams don't do that.

I think the bigger joke is your analogy. Holtby has cemented himself as one of the leagues consistent #1 goalies, Murray hasn't and there's been questions about it for a couple of years now. When DeSmith took over and had to carry the load while he "figured stuff out" with his game, then this year while Jarry has taken over the position of starting goalie. It's weird to keep saying it's Murray's net when he's lost it twice and the only reason he didn't 3yrs in a row was because this team sort of shafted Niemi (I said Vokoun last time, I mixed names up) and also Niemi was also crap until he got to the Habs and got to rebound. But even that year, the Pens were throwing Murray all of these "winnable" games and he was absolutely garbage in those, sure he rebounded but consistency is incredibly important. Holtby was already one of the better goalies in the league, 6th year as a #1 goalie for the caps, not having 20-25 forgettable games a season.

Murray hasn't had a full consistent season in his entire NHL career upto this point. Hell, Jarry has been the most consistent goalie so far, he has 2 forgettable games, then bounces back. But people are basically just waiting to see Murray get the job back when really, why is it weird to think...what if Jarry takes the job and is the right man for it? That, that part right there, seems to bother people.

I'm glad Murray helped this team as much as he has with winning the cups, etc. But looking forward, cap implications, quality of overall game right now, it's not as clear cut as people assume it to be with Murray being a guy that will take his crease back. I mean going by purely performance this season.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm not paying attention to how teams actually treat their starters? Yet you brush off the fact that Grubby started the playoffs for the Caps. He only got yanked due to the fact that they went down 0-2 at home as a heavy favorite.

Why don't you think the Pens could approach it the exact same way? If the playoffs started tomorrow, Jarry would start. If the Pens go down 0-2, time to go get Murray out of the bullpen. That is literally the definition of 1a/1b. That is literally what happened with Grubby/Holtby

I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall here.

The initial comment was that Murray was the Penguins clear #1 goalie coming into the year, and unless he plays himself out of the net, it's his net. In 2018, Holtby was horrendous down the stretch. That's why Grubauer started in the playoffs. That wasn't "Holtby playing well but Grubauer playing better", that was Holtby playing bad. If Murray finishes the year with a .894 save% in his last 20 games, he's not going to start in the playoffs. But that's because he's playing bad, not because Jarry is better.

It's really not a hard concept to grasp. If your established starting goalie is playing well down the stretch, he's going to start in the playoffs. For your backup to play, your starting goalie has to be bad, not that the backup goalie has to be better than the starter. Binnington is an actual rebuttal to that, Grubauer isn't.

I think the bigger joke is your analogy. Holtby has cemented himself as one of the leagues consistent #1 goalies, Murray hasn't and there's been questions about it for a couple of years now. When DeSmith took over and had to carry the load while he "figured stuff out" with his game, then this year while Jarry has taken over the position of starting goalie. It's weird to keep saying it's Murray's net when he's lost it twice and the only reason he didn't 3yrs in a row was because this team sort of shafted Niemi (I said Vokoun last time, I mixed names up) and also Niemi was also crap until he got to the Habs and got to rebound. But even that year, the Pens were throwing Murray all of these "winnable" games and he was absolutely garbage in those, sure he rebounded but consistency is incredibly important. Holtby was already one of the better goalies in the league, 6th year as a #1 goalie for the caps, not having 20-25 forgettable games a season.

Murray hasn't had a full consistent season in his entire NHL career upto this point. Hell, Jarry has been the most consistent goalie so far, he has 2 forgettable games, then bounces back. But people are basically just waiting to see Murray get the job back when really, why is it weird to think...what if Jarry takes the job and is the right man for it? That, that part right there, seems to bother people.

I'm glad Murray helped this team as much as he has with winning the cups, etc. But looking forward, cap implications, quality of overall game right now, it's not as clear cut as people assume it to be with Murray being a guy that will take his crease back. I mean going by purely performance this season.

Your opinion on Murray's consistent counts for nothing here, because the discussion is on how Murray is viewed by JR and other NHL executives. What indications were there that Murray's place as the Penguins established starting goalie were threatened going into this season? Murray was clearly an established starting goalie going into this year, I don't even know what you can possibly mention as proof that he wasn't.

 

[heysmilinstrange]

Holtby has cemented himself as one of the leagues consistent #1 goalies, Murray hasn't and there's been questions about it for a couple of years now.

Murray hasn't had a full consistent season in his entire NHL career upto this point. Hell, Jarry has been the most consistent goalie so far, he has 2 forgettable games, then bounces back. But people are basically just waiting to see Murray get the job back when really, why is it weird to think...what if Jarry takes the job and is the right man for it? That, that part right there, seems to bother people.

I'm glad Murray helped this team as much as he has with winning the cups, etc. But looking forward, cap implications, quality of overall game right now, it's not as clear cut as people assume it to be with Murray being a guy that will take his crease back. I mean going by purely performance this season.

Ask Caps fans how they feel about Holtby's consistency these past few years.

Jarry has never played a full NHL season, so comparing his consistency to Murray's doesn't make sense. You could easily find a 25-30 game sample from Murray's career that would be comparable to what Jarry has shown this season.

 

[kladorf2005]

I think the bigger joke is your analogy. Holtby has cemented himself as one of the leagues consistent #1 goalies, Murray hasn't and there's been questions about it for a couple of years now. When DeSmith took over and had to carry the load while he "figured stuff out" with his game, then this year while Jarry has taken over the position of starting goalie. It's weird to keep saying it's Murray's net when he's lost it twice and the only reason he didn't 3yrs in a row was because this team sort of shafted Niemi (I said Vokoun last time, I mixed names up) and also Niemi was also crap until he got to the Habs and got to rebound. But even that year, the Pens were throwing Murray all of these "winnable" games and he was absolutely garbage in those, sure he rebounded but consistency is incredibly important. Holtby was already one of the better goalies in the league, 6th year as a #1 goalie for the caps, not having 20-25 forgettable games a season.

Murray hasn't had a full consistent season in his entire NHL career upto this point. Hell, Jarry has been the most consistent goalie so far, he has 2 forgettable games, then bounces back. But people are basically just waiting to see Murray get the job back when really, why is it weird to think...what if Jarry takes the job and is the right man for it? That, that part right there, seems to bother people.

I'm glad Murray helped this team as much as he has with winning the cups, etc. But looking forward, cap implications, quality of overall game right now, it's not as clear cut as people assume it to be with Murray being a guy that will take his crease back. I mean going by purely performance this season.

I actually thought about making this exact same point, but decided not to because I expected to get roasted for saying Holtby was more established than Murray given the 2 cups to 0 cups at the time.

But I completely agree. IMO, Holtby was more entrenched as the team's #1 in 2018 than Murray is now. Even having said that, Holtby/Grubby was essentially a 1a/1b situation that year. Just more proof that Murray is not our clear cut #1 right now.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I actually thought about making this exact same point, but decided not to because I expected to get roasted for saying Holtby was more established than Murray given the 2 cups to 0 cups at the time.

But I completely agree. IMO, Holtby was more entrenched as the team's #1 in 2018 than Murray is now. Even having said that, Holtby/Grubby was essentially a 1a/1b situation that year. Just more proof that Murray is not our clear cut #1 right now.

In the last 3 seasons...

Murray had to fight to take the crease back from a terrible Niemi while also tanking lobs this team gave him to bounce back but really couldn't, Jarry and DeSmith step up. Murray eventually wakes back up again. Sort of.

Murray has tragedy, but also again, another poor start to the season, DeSmith bails him out again, but is a back-up that has back-up issues, being that he is not able to handle the bulk of the games and is just a solid back-up at best.

Murray has a decent start, then falls into a struggle early in the season, this time a guy that full on has the potential to be a #1, is playing like one and it's not ok that people question him?

Holtby was one of the better goalies for 6yrs when Grubby got those 2 games in the playoffs before Holtby took his crease back. 6yrs worth of damn good consistent goaltending, not 3yrs of inconsistent goaltending.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Jarry was available for a 2nd round pick last off-season and JR was completely ready to go into this year with Murray-DeSmith as his tandem. To me, that pretty clearly indicates that Murray was fully established as the starting goalie in the eyes of JR.

In the last 3 seasons...

Murray had to fight to take the crease back from a terrible Niemi while also tanking lobs this team gave him to bounce back but really couldn't, Jarry and DeSmith step up. Murray eventually wakes back up again. Sort of.

Murray has tragedy, but also again, another poor start to the season, DeSmith bails him out again, but is a back-up that has back-up issues, being that he is not able to handle the bulk of the games and is just a solid back-up at best.

Murray has a decent start, then falls into a struggle early in the season, this time a guy that full on has the potential to be a #1, is playing like one and it's not ok that people question him?

Holtby was one of the better goalies for 6yrs when Grubby got those 2 games in the playoffs before Holtby took his crease back. 6yrs worth of damn good consistent goaltending, not 3yrs of inconsistent goaltending.

People would take you more seriously if you wouldn't be saying blatant lies like this.

 

[kladorf2005]

The initial comment was that Murray was the Penguins clear #1 goalie coming into the year, and unless he plays himself out of the net, it's his net. In 2018, Holtby was horrendous down the stretch. That's why Grubauer started in the playoffs. That wasn't "Holtby playing well but Grubauer playing better", that was Holtby playing bad. If Murray finishes the year with a .894 save% in his last 20 games, he's not going to start in the playoffs. But that's because he's playing bad, not because Jarry is better.

It's really not a hard concept to grasp. If your established starting goalie is playing well down the stretch, he's going to start in the playoffs. For your backup to play, your starting goalie has to be bad, not that the backup goalie has to be better than the starter. Binnington is an actual rebuttal to that, Grubauer isn't.



Your opinion on Murray's consistent counts for nothing here, because the discussion is on how Murray is viewed by JR and other NHL executives. What indications were there that Murray's place as the Penguins established starting goalie were threatened going into this season? Murray was clearly an established starting goalie going into this year, I don't even know what you can possibly mention as proof that he wasn't.

I dunno man. You say you're not a Murray fanboy, but your posts ITT say otherwise.

To be clear. I'm not saying Jarry is our #1. I'm just not saying Murray is either. This is what, his 4th year as the "starter"? And that's probably generous given how he's played the past two years. To make these outlandish claims portraying him to be like our franchise goalie that deserves the net until he posts sub .900 SV% is just asinine.

An argument could be made that Jarry has been the best goalie in the entire NHL this season. Why on earth would you still believe that Murray is hands down the starter? I just don't get it.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Your opinion on Murray's consistent counts for nothing here, because the discussion is on how Murray is viewed by JR and other NHL executives. What indications were there that Murray's place as the Penguins established starting goalie were threatened going into this season? Murray was clearly an established starting goalie going into this year, I don't even know what you can possibly mention as proof that he wasn't.

And I haven't touched on that, because it would be conjecture to assume JR thinks anything but what he's already stated - That he didn't move him in the end because of the time and money invested in Jarry and his pedigree, when people made an uproar for him being up over DeSmith and not being moved.

At this point, JR looks like a genius to keep the kid instead of losing him for nothing but scraps.

Murray's #1 status was never threatened by anyone but his own inconsistent play. Opportunities present themselves, but it means nothing if no one takes advantage, Jarry did and has earned his place in this conversation of "#1 goalie" for the team. He's shown flashes of it and has worked on his game and has been consistent this season while starting the bulk of the games.

You're f***ing hilarious mate, jesus christ. It really f***ing burns you to see Murray in this light for some reason.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I dunno man. You say you're not a Murray fanboy, but your posts ITT say otherwise.

To be clear. I'm not saying Jarry is our #1. I'm just not saying Murray is either. This is what, his 4th year as the "starter"? And that's probably generous given how he's played the past two years. To make these outlandish claims portraying him to be like our franchise goalie that deserves the net until he posts sub .900 SV% is just asinine.

An argument could be made that Jarry has been the best goalie in the entire NHL this season. Why on earth would you still believe that Murray is hands down the starter? I just don't get it.

Okay, despite the fact that the Penguins are treating him literally exactly like he is a franchise goalie, he's not their starter and it's generous to call him a "starter". Gotcha.

This is funny to be, because if someone would have tried to make these claims last off-season, they would have been laughed off this website. Put yourself in August of 2019 and imagine if you would have argued that Murray wasn't their starting goalie and wasn't their franchise goalie. The only "fanboys" in here are Jarry fanboys, who I presume are also Fleury fanboys who resent Murray for taking Fleury's spot.