The GM Jim Benning & Team Management Discussion Part VI (MOD Warning post #166)

[Domecile]

We've slightly moved on from the topic, but...


How come we never talk about the Sedins and how they'll be making $56 million with a $14 million cap hit for the next 4 years until they retire at 39?

Too long of a term? - Check
Slightly overpaid? - Check
On the downswing of their careers? - Check
Likely unmovable? - Check

These same points are rattled off when referencing Millers contract... But why not the Sedins?

I love them and have enjoyed watching them throughout their careers, but those contracts are terrible. Somebody has to say it.

 

[StrictlyCommercial]

Can we stop acting like Lack is a top goalie in the NHL. I get it he is likable, nice guy who has had some good moments but if you listen around the nhl he is down the list after Talbot and others on the trade market priority. A goalie has to move. if he brings the best return so be it. Markstrom is 2 years younger and could end up being better and Demko probably the best of them all long term.

Losing Lack is not the end of the world. None of our 3 goalies are going to win the Vezina. Lets keep some perspective.

Lack is better than Miller AND cheaper by a lot. Bad asset management deserves to be called out.

 

[Domecile]

Lack is better than Miller AND cheaper by a lot. Bad asset management deserves to be called out.

He's been in the league for 2 seasons. How can you or anybody say that with confidence?

 

[Nuckles]

He's been in the league for 2 seasons. How can you or anybody say that with confidence?

Young player trending upwards vs old player trending downwards. It's not hard to figure out.

 

[opendoor]

We've slightly moved on from the topic, but...


How come we never talk about the Sedins and how they'll be making $56 million with a $14 million cap hit for the next 4 years until they retire at 39?

Too long of a term? - Check
Slightly overpaid? - Check
On the downswing of their careers? - Check
Likely unmovable? - Check

These same points are rattled off when referencing Millers contract... But why not the Sedins?

I love them and have enjoyed watching them throughout their careers, but those contracts are terrible. Somebody has to say it.

For the bolded, it's because the Sedins are among the best at their position and Miller is among the worst at his.

And of course your facts are incorrect. They're only signed for 3 more years and their contracts are over when they're 37 years old.

 

[Samzilla]

We've slightly moved on from the topic, but...


How come we never talk about the Sedins and how they'll be making $56 million with a $14 million cap hit for the next 4 years until they retire at 39?

Too long of a term? - Check
Slightly overpaid? - Check
On the downswing of their careers? - Check
Likely unmovable? - Check

These same points are rattled off when referencing Millers contract... But why not the Sedins?

I love them and have enjoyed watching them throughout their careers, but those contracts are terrible. Somebody has to say it.

because one sedin was top 10 in scoring and the other just outside...whereas miller wishes he was top 10 in something

 

[Domecile]

Young player trending upwards vs old player trending downwards. It's not hard to figure out.

He's 27. He's not young.

 

[HankNDank]

I'm talking strategy-wise.

Instead of trying to make the playoffs every year regardless, the focus should be on winning a Cup.

That's the mentality in Junior.

That's what the Canucks mentality should be but it's not.

The Lightning won a Cup in '04, then **** the bed for a number of years and are back.

Meanwhile, we are stuck in never-ending mediocrity.

The major difference is that the player turnover rate in major junior happens every 3-4 years. That's why you see teams go up and down in the standings so fast, not as a sly conscious effort from their management staff, but because their star players left for another league before becoming a journeyman.

 

[Nuckles]

He's 27. He's not young.

For starting goalies that is young.


In July Miller will be 35, an 8 year difference between him and Lack. I'll give you a moment to let that sink in.

 

[The Stig]

For starting goalies that is young.


In July Miller will be 35, an 8 year difference between him and Lack. I'll give you a moment to let that sink in.

Ok it sank in....now what?

 

[Domecile]

Ok it sank in....now what?

You see he's been in the league 2 seasons, posted average numbers, and then realize you have people claiming him as an undisputed #1.

 

[MS]

Two words: David Clarkson.

Toronto had to essentially give Columbus a $28 million cash payment to get out of that contract.

Yeah, Sbisa isn't as bad as that. And yeah, I'm sure if we paid someone $10 million cash they'd take his contract. But if this is what the comparisons are, how freaking bad is that deal?

Whatever you think of the "mess" that was left here for Benning, he went and actually made this team's short- and long-term prospects even worse.

This seems to be literally the only defense going for Benning right now.

"Well, Gillis didn't draft well so he left a mess."

So what?

The two things are completely separate issues. Benning can make good moves or bad moves with what he's given. So far, his moves and direction look awful.

Gillis not drafting well didn't mean Benning had to spend $6 million on a goalie he didn't need. Gillis not drafting well didn't mean that Benning had to target Sbisa in the Kesler deal and then give him an absurd extension.

 

[Nuckles]

Ok it sank in....now what?

Now you must admire the brilliance that is Jim Benning.

 

[Jay Cee]

JB to Lack:

 

[MS]

He's 27. He's not young.

He's one of the youngest starting goalies in the NHL. 27 for goalies is not the same as for forwards. There were 0 starters under 25 in the league last year.

You see he's been in the league 2 seasons, posted average numbers, and then realize you have people claiming him as an undisputed #1.

Well, yeah.

And he posted well above-average numbers last year.

Given where this team is at and given that nobody thinks we'll win a Cup in the next 2 years (the Miller timeframe), why on earth would you not give the reins to the younger, cheaper guy who out-performed him?

 

[vanuck]

You talk like drafting a 35 ES point player is something that happens every year for every team. Over his 4 full seasons as a Canuck Higgins has averaged 35 ES points per 82 games; here's a list of Blackhawk drafted players who've put up 35 ES points even just once in the last 6 years where they've won 3 cups:

Toews
Kane
Saad

So 2 franchise players and one great 2nd round pick. In the last 6-7 drafts they've drafted 1 guy who can produce like Higgins at ES, and we're talking about probably the best run team in the NHL.

Nothing wrong with moving Higgins for a pick or something (though I'm struggling to think why anyone would give up an asset for someone who's apparently so easily replaced), but to pretend like any random player is going to do what he does is ridiculous.

This so much. NTCs are only a problem when you want to trade away someone you don't want anyway - why wouldn't you want a good player?

This seems to be literally the only defense going for Benning right now.

"Well, Gillis didn't draft well so he left a mess."

So what?

The two things are completely separate issues. Benning can make good moves or bad moves with what he's given. So far, his moves and direction look awful.

Gillis not drafting well didn't mean Benning had to spend $6 million on a goalie he didn't need. Gillis not drafting well didn't mean that Benning had to target Sbisa in the Kesler deal and then give him an absurd extension.

"Gillis not drafting well" is basically a free pass for Benning to make stupid moves. To think that it makes everything he does okay and justified is just insane.

 

[Cupless44]

Lack is better than Miller AND cheaper by a lot. Bad asset management deserves to be called out.

Conveniently leaving out that Lack was a major question mark when Miller was signed.

 

[Free Edler]

Toronto had to essentially give Columbus a $28 million cash payment to get out of that contract.

Yeah, Sbisa isn't as bad as that. And yeah, I'm sure if we paid someone $10 million cash they'd take his contract. But if this is what the comparisons are, how freaking bad is that deal?

You don't need me to tell you Sbisa's contract is a very, very bad deal. But if Clarkson - who by almost any objective estimation had the worst contract in the league - could be moved, so could Sbisa. That said, the only comparable I could find is the worst contract in the league that it took Toronto the GDP of a small island nation to get out from under, so in sum.. YMMV.

A year into the deal, I'd shudder to think what it would cost Benning to divest himself of that mistake, but I'd wager we're going to see some stubbornness on the level of Mike Gillis/Keith Ballard with Sbisa. He's here until the end of that deal. Luca Sbisa is going to be Jim Benning's project. For better or (much) worse.

 

[Cupless44]

You see he's been in the league 2 seasons, posted average numbers, and then realize you have people claiming him as an undisputed #1.

I know. His stock around the NHL is not as high as his fans here think. When looking at the trade market, teams like Sharks have 4 or 5 targets they like better than Lack. Benning will have done very well if he gets a 2nd for Lack. Cam Talbot for one is much more highly regarded.

Lack does not have a foolproof resume and did not get the job done against the Flames in the playoffs either.

 

[Domecile]

Just wondering where the confidence in Lack was coming from, not advocating who should play and who should go.

And it appears the answer is the dislike for Miller and his season with the Canucks supersedes Lacks unproven abilities.

 

[Tinhorn1]

Originally Posted by Proto
The Miller contract length: he wanted more years so 3 years is a good deal because he got less than he wanted. Huh?

Miller dollar value: starters cost 5.5 to 8 million a year, so 6 million is on the low end! Does it matter that he could have had a starter at 1.15 million, or that Miller is a below average starter, or that he's buying up bad goaltending years (34-36)? Nope. Just has a concept of what a starter costs.

Miller not being a good starter: team is real confidence when he's in net. He actually believes this complete and utter tripe. This is just dumb hockey analysis being paraded around as executive decision making. He's either incapable of admitting a mistake or too myopic to even realize he's made a series of them. Unbelievable.

Well, they do give him a lot more goal support than Lack, if I recall correctly. Maybe they do play looser in every sense of the word (also looser defensively, of course). No denying Miller was quite inconsistent, however-- sometimes great, sometimes very poor. Seems to be a "zone" type of goalie.

Dorsett extension: brought us the heinous term "culture carrier", which sounds like something from the expository paragraph at the beginning of a post-apocalyptic novel. It's all "rubbing shoulders" and rah rah nonsense. It's fine to believe in leadership/intangibles, but overpaying for it and lauding it as an actual honest-to-god important component of Bo Horvat's development (and not like a < 1% factor) is crazy. How many million do you spend on shoulder rubbing?

You don't know this. You have no idea how important or not important Dorsett was as a mentor to the young players, nor how important he will be to the next group. All you know is that you don't like Dorsett the player and, presumably, you do like the progress Horvat made over the course of the year.

 

[Cupless44]

Just wondering where the confidence in Lack was coming from, not advocating who should play and who should go.

And it appears the answer is the dislike for Miller and his season with the Canucks supersedes Lacks unproven abilities.

Lack very unproven as a playoff goaltender as he did not stack up in the Calgary series with 886 save% and outplayed by Flames goalies.

The Miller hate has skewed Lack's real stature and worth in the NHL.

 

[Ho Borvat]

Conveniently leaving out that Lack was a major question mark when Miller was signed.

Do you think signing Miller was the correct choice at the time?

 

[Ho Borvat]

Lack very unproven as a playoff goaltender as he did not stack up in the Calgary series with 886 save% and outplayed by Flames goalies.

The Miller hate has skewed Lack's real stature and worth in the NHL.

I agree, using a 4 game sample is the best way to evaluate talent.

 

[Nuckles]

Just wondering where the confidence in Lack was coming from, not advocating who should play and who should go.

And it appears the answer is the dislike for Miller and his season with the Canucks supersedes Lacks unproven abilities.

Lack was posting good numbers even though he was playing once every two to three weeks (and on many occasions getting thrown under the bus by Miller in back-to-back situations), but when Miller went down he elevated his game and just got better with a more consistent workload.

Last year he posted very good numbers as well, until Luongo got traded and as a rookie had to start 17 games in a row playing behind a team that basically gave up.

There is no way to argue that Lack didn't have a better season than Miller. The difference between a .921SV% and a .911SV% is quite large. It doesn't help that Miller is only going to get worse with age (and who knows how his latest injury/surgery will affect him).