The GM Jim Benning & Team Management Discussion Part VI (MOD Warning post #166)

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dave babych returns

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Dec 2, 2011
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Higgins NTC makes it hard to trade an aging 3rd liner. There is no justification for an NTC to a 30+ 3rd liner

How hard is it to trade him? I'm honestly curious to hear your thoughts on how it's 'hard' to deal a good role player with a sensible salary to one of 20+ possible teams (that aren't on his no trade list).

I think it's far more likely, particularly now that we have guys like Dorsett making similar money, that a team that wants to be in the playoffs has simply never entertained the thought of dumping Chris Higgins.
 

tantalum

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How do you know? That is the problem with many fans who still like watching this stale old core. You over rate the players Gillis saddled this team with long term NTCs. When was the last time these players that you say are so good looked even competitive in a playoff series?

Who cares if we ship some out? And no replacing them with comparable vets is not the answer. Stocking up on draft picks and rebuilding properly is.

How do I know? Because unless you are very lucky you are not going to replace multiple QUALITY NHL players for league minimum and rookies and still be as good. And this year they weren't good enough (clearly).

I also never said they were sooooo good. They are in many cases quality players though. Playing a guy out of position or where he maybe shouldn't be doesn't change the fact that higgins for example, is better than every other winger behind him in the depth chart this year. Same for Hansen. You can not expect a rookie or cast off to replace these guys with similar overall play.

To replace them requires spending the same amount of money because they are earning the pay they get.

The problem with the stocking up on draft picks is that it isn't a philosophy or strategy that takes place in a vacuum unless you are the Oilers. I don't subscribe to the intentional tank and just collect draft picks philosophy. I don't believe this management group does either. So you need to balance that with remaining competitive. You have to be judicious in who is shipped out and maximize returns when you do. As well as smart in who you bring in and hand over money to. Thus far in his first 12 months Benning has not maximized asset value and he has not been that smart in who he has handed money out to.

Very very few people have a definitive "will not move him ever" attitude. I'd move Higgins. I have no issue with that. The problem is with all those other things and how things need to piece together. I don't think the canucks have a guy that is equal to him in the system (where he should be playing). Instead what will happen is Baertschi will get moved in...fine on the surface but it'll be coupled with Dorsett remaining in a position or being elevated in the lineup. For more money than Higgins.

Despite the hate it is very hard to replace the contributions of a Higgins or Hansen for the money they make. It also, in the end, doesn't really save a bunch of money so it doesn't help the cap situation that much. And that is a big obstacle this summer in the effort to get better.

Bieksa yes you can replace his contribution for cheaper. Unfortunately, they have already decided who will replace that contribution and he's worse. But I guess it wil be a 900k cap savings so yay?

In short...yes to draft picks but you still need to improve the team.
 

opendoor

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I've never seen less understanding of how successful teams are run than I have in this thread :shakehead:shakehead

Trivia - Which team has the most NTC/NMC's in the league.

Yeah, a team that hands out NTCs to guys like Bryan Bickell, Johnny Oduya, Michal Roszival, and Brad Richards will never be successful.
 

Jay Cee

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Who cares? The core is stale, ship the multiple quality NHL vets and see what happens. Making the playoffs is not everything. I wish we wouldn't have even bothered to make the playoffs this year with the type of soft pathetic effort this core gave.
 

tantalum

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Who cares? The core is stale, ship the multiple quality NHL vets and see what happens. Making the playoffs is not everything. I wish we wouldn't have even bothered to make the playoffs this year with the type of soft pathetic effort this core gave.

The core was fine. The best canuck players were Henrik, Daniel, Tanev, Edler and Horvat. That IS the core right now.

Beyond those 5 (and Kenins) the efforts were questionable.
 

y2kcanucks

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The core was fine. The best canuck players were Henrik, Daniel, Tanev, Edler and Horvat. That IS the core right now.

Beyond those 5 (and Kenins) the efforts were questionable.

The core was/is not fine. The same old core has proven year after year that they aren't good enough to win in the playoffs. That is, Henrik, Daniel, Edler, Bieksa, Hamhuis, Burrows, and Higgins.
 

tantalum

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The core was/is not fine. The same old core has proven year after year that they aren't good enough to win in the playoffs. That is, Henrik, Daniel, Edler, Bieksa, Hamhuis, Burrows, and Higgins.

That isn't the core anymore.

Tanev is most definitely part of the core right now and an important one. Higgins, Burrows, and Bieksa I would no longer consider core players.

It's evolving. And the right now moving forward into the next couple of years what I listed seems to be clearly the core (IMO). And IMO a core doesn't involve 10 players. It's 2-3 forwards, a couple of D-men and maybe a goaltender.

For core players everyone seems convinced the canucks will move Bieksa and Higgins and maybe Burrows do clearly the organization doesn't even consider them a part of the core. And that is the correct view. The problems come from the introduction of guys like Sbisa and Miller as guys they view as core or important moving forward....
 

y2kcanucks

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That isn't the core anymore.

Tanev is most definitely part of the core. Higgins, Burrows, and Bieksa I would no longer consider core players.

It's evolving. And the right now moving forward into the next couple of years what I listed seems to be clearly the core (IMO).

For core players everyone seems convinced the canucks will move Bieksa and Higgins and maybe Burrows do clearly the organization doesn't even consider them a part of the core. And that is the correct view. The problems come from the introduction of guys like Sbisa and Miller as guys they view as core or important moving forward....

It doesn't really matter who you consider to be the core. These guys are getting paid top dollar, and are the veteran leadership group on the team. An argument can be made that guys like Tanev and Horvat are forming part of the new core, but these aren't the leaders on the team quite yet.
 

VanillaCoke

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Will find out who the new core players are in the next few months. If bieksa and burrows are shipped out theyre not core players anymore...
 

Ho Borvat

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Yeah, a team that hands out NTCs to guys like Bryan Bickell, Johnny Oduya, Michal Roszival, and Brad Richards will never be successful.

The argument is, most of the teams with lots of NTC's are teams that look to be competitive. Chicago, Vancouver (in their peak), Pittsburgh, Minny, etc.

You know who doesn't have a lot of NTC's? Buffao, Arizona and Edmonton.
 

MS

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Man, what a complete show of buffoonery from these guys. It's becoming more and more clear that Benning has an incredibly simple understanding of a complex league. Literally every idea this guy has seems to drive from some core concept he has written down on a whiteboard.

The Miller contract length: he wanted more years so 3 years is a good deal because he got less than he wanted. Huh?

Miller dollar value: starters cost 5.5 to 8 million a year, so 6 million is on the low end! Does it matter that he could have had a starter at 1.15 million, or that Miller is a below average starter, or that he's buying up bad goaltending years (34-36)? Nope. Just has a concept of what a starter costs.

Miller not being a good starter: team is real confidence when he's in net. He actually believes this complete and utter tripe. This is just dumb hockey analysis being paraded around as executive decision making. He's either incapable of admitting a mistake or too myopic to even realize he's made a series of them. Unbelievable.

Sbisa contract: didn't have the prospects to fill that specific slot and D are expensive. Doesn't matter that he traded Garrison (lol) or that he could have acquired a better guy on waivers. He had a spot on his whiteboard depth chart for a 20-something left side physical D, regardless of skill level.

Sbia not being good: nice guy who tries hard and wants to be better so he'll be better. Lines up with his simplistic view of "prospects" like Stewart who will make it because they really want it and guys that really want it find a way.

Dorsett extension: brought us the heinous term "culture carrier", which sounds like something from the expository paragraph at the beginning of a post-apocalyptic novel. It's all "rubbing shoulders" and rah rah nonsense. It's fine to believe in leadership/intangibles, but overpaying for it and lauding it as an actual honest-to-god important component of Bo Horvat's development (and not like a < 1% factor) is crazy. How many million do you spend on shoulder rubbing?

I guess the upshot of all this is that they'll be an easy group to hate over the next little while. These guys are going down with Stan McCammon in Canucks lore.

It's so painful. The guy just doesn't have a clue.

On the Miller signing, jeez. No, Jim. You don't have to pay the guy that much just because he asked for a bit more and some other goalies make it.

You look around and gauge the market. 28 out of 30 teams were COMPLETELY SET in goal and not looking to make any change on July 1. There were 2 teams looking for goalies (Calgary and Vancouver) and 2 goalies (Hiller and Miller) available. Just by being patient, we were in a position to get one for a steal.

People talk about him having no leverage on Kesler because of the 'one team list'. But on Miller, he had every bit of leverage imaginable. The guy had no other interest (and pretty much admitted it) and wanted to be on the West Coast. We had him over a barrel.

And as someone else mentioned, a decade after the fanbase clued in that 'three 30-win seasons!' is a bad way to evaluate a goalie, you have the bloody GM of the team trotting out the same level of analysis.

For all the heat on Benning's new contracts for Dorsett and Sbisa at least neither came with NTC's. Gillis handed them out like candy. No reason why role players like Hansen and Higgins should have been getting NTCs.

Sbisa's contract is more of an NTC than Higgins'.

It's a hell of a lot easier to move a good player on a good contract with an NTC (although why would you want to?) than it is to move a bad player on an awful contract without one.

Sbisa would clear waivers at $2 million. He's getting nearly double that.


Higgins NTC makes it hard to trade an aging 3rd liner. There is no justification for an NTC to a 30+ 3rd liner

It's a great deal.

The fact that we have a quality top-9 two-way forward who scores 30-35 ES points every year signed for $2.5 million is NOT A PROBLEM in any way.

The core was fine. The best canuck players were Henrik, Daniel, Tanev, Edler and Horvat. That IS the core right now.

Beyond those 5 (and Kenins) the efforts were questionable.

Exactly.

The core was fine. The depth was terrible, and horribly managed by the coach.

We didn't get eliminated from the playoffs because the core was stale. We were eliminated because we had 3 capable defenders and the coach insisted on playing an atrocious 3rd pairing as much at ES as our standout shutdown pairing.
 

Zaddy91

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6 mil miller is definitely a bit of a splash to increase ticket sales.

hopefully they realize we aren't rich or stupid

But it doesn't handcuff this franchise even 1% and suggesting it is simply wrong, other guy's are getting moved. with ELC coming in
 

y2kcanucks

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You know who else has a core group of players who haven't been winners the last 6 years? 27 other teams.

What's your point? That we should be content with a group of losers because a lot of other teams have cores that didn't win?

6 mil miller is definitely a bit of a splash to increase ticket sales.

hopefully they realize we aren't rich or stupid

But it doesn't handcuff this franchise even 1% and suggesting it is simply wrong, other guy's are getting moved. with ELC coming in

It does handcuff the team. It hurts our overall depth, and in terms of Value Over Replacement Player it's absolutely horrendous.
 

Jimson Hogarth*

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Nov 21, 2013
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Chris Higgins and his NTC does not guarantee that he gets top 6 minutes and it does not mean he won't get traded. All it means is that Chris will have a say as to where he wants to get traded to if Benning decides to approach him ...i believe that means alot to players which is why so many players now have NTC or limited NTC's.

What's your point? That we should be content with a group of losers because a lot of other teams have cores that didn't win?



It does handcuff the team. It hurts our overall depth, and in terms of Value Over Replacement Player it's absolutely horrendous.

Depth should come from
Cheap youth not aging 3rd line vets with NTCs
 

Cupless44

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Jun 25, 2014
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Who cares? The core is stale, ship the multiple quality NHL vets and see what happens. Making the playoffs is not everything. I wish we wouldn't have even bothered to make the playoffs this year with the type of soft pathetic effort this core gave.


There you have it. If you don't ship out a Higgins or two then you are trotting out the same stale core that hasn't won a playoff round in 4 years.

How many fans honestly want to watch this same team AGAIN? I could almost scream I am so tired of the same players and the same soft team. Last year watching Horvat and Kenins was what kept me going.
 

Ho Borvat

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What's your point? That we should be content with a group of losers because a lot of other teams have cores that didn't win?

It does handcuff the team. It hurts our overall depth, and in terms of Value Over Replacement Player it's absolutely horrendous.

Take the Sedins off of the Canucks, and take Toews and Kane off of the Blackhawks.
The Blackhawks are going to destroy that Canucks team every single time.

We've never been able to surround the Sedins with the talent that Toews/Kane has.

But thats an entirely different discussion.
 

thepuckmonster

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Oct 25, 2011
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Take the Sedins off of the Canucks, and take Toews and Kane off of the Blackhawks.
The Blackhawks are going to destroy that Canucks team every single time.

We've never been able to surround the Sedins with the talent that Toews/Kane has.

But thats an entirely different discussion.

Thank you.
 
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