The GM Jim Benning & Team Management Discussion Part VI (MOD Warning post #166)

[castanza]

Man, what a complete show of buffoonery from these guys. It's becoming more and more clear that Benning has an incredibly simple understanding of a complex league. Literally every idea this guy has seems to drive from some core concept he has written down on a whiteboard.

The Miller contract length: he wanted more years so 3 years is a good deal because he got less than he wanted. Huh?

Benning is obviously not going to explain the entire negotiation process with Miller in the public. All he's done is to provide a simplified response to a fan question about the negotiation that took place and you've jumped all over it. Imo, all he is saying (in a very simplified response) is that Miller wanted more, Benning wanted less and they settled for 3 years.

Miller dollar value: starters cost 5.5 to 8 million a year, so 6 million is on the low end! Does it matter that he could have had a starter at 1.15 million, or that Miller is a below average starter, or that he's buying up bad goaltending years (34-36)? Nope. Just has a concept of what a starter costs.

Hindsight is 20/20. Not many Canuck fans I knew thought that Lack had what it took to be a #1 goalie after he faltered under Torts. Goaltending being such an important position, Benning wanted to solidify that by signing Miller at the time. Miller had an up and down season with a new team, coaching staff, playing out west and injuries. After watching him play last year, there were games we wouldn't have won if it were not for Miller.

Now that Lack was able to give us the season he did this year, its very easy for you to go back and say that he should never have signed Miller.

Miller not being a good starter: team is real confidence when he's in net. He actually believes this complete and utter tripe. This is just dumb hockey analysis being paraded around as executive decision making. He's either incapable of admitting a mistake or too myopic to even realize he's made a series of them. Unbelievable.

Miller is a highly regarded goalie in the league. How a player effects the rest of the hockey team or backup goalie can only be stated by the players around him. No offence but I trust the experience of Linden and Benning as previous long time NHL players who've seen how players can effect the rest of their teammates. I trust their management staff as long time players and/or hockey executives and the feedback they get from our current players rather than your criticism as an HF forum poster who seems to think that he knows it all.

Sbisa contract: didn't have the prospects to fill that specific slot and D are expensive. Doesn't matter that he traded Garrison (lol) or that he could have acquired a better guy on waivers. He had a spot on his whiteboard depth chart for a 20-something left side physical D, regardless of skill level.

Garrison played like crap for us his final year here which did not go unnoticed on this forum. Hockey is a team game and although Garrison played better in Tampa, he also had a much better group of defensemen around him than he did in Vancouver.

Sbia not being good: nice guy who tries hard and wants to be better so he'll be better. Lines up with his simplistic view of "prospects" like Stewart who will make it because they really want it and guys that really want it find a way.

I think your taking a very simplistic view of what he said. Benning has said Sbisa has the tools to be a good player and my interpretation of what he said is that he has the character to put the effort into his continued improvement.

Like I've said in a previous post, if Sbisa ends up being the player Benning thinks he has potential to be, his contract will be a steal. If not, then it will be an albatross. Obviously Benning believes Sbisa can still develop into the player he thinks he can be based on the extension. Time will tell.

Dorsett extension: brought us the heinous term "culture carrier", which sounds like something from the expository paragraph at the beginning of a post-apocalyptic novel. It's all "rubbing shoulders" and rah rah nonsense. It's fine to believe in leadership/intangibles, but overpaying for it and lauding it as an actual honest-to-god important component of Bo Horvat's development (and not like a < 1% factor) is crazy. How many million do you spend on shoulder rubbing?

Sure he is overpaid based on his production and he still maybe overpaid based on his intangibles but I don't believe he's overpaid by millions. I for one am glad Dorsett is re-signed, I like the way he plays even if it is for a small premium.

I guess the upshot of all this is that they'll be an easy group to hate over the next little while.

Yea you really sound like a hater more than a fan.

 

[castanza]

Depth should come from
Cheap youth not aging 3rd line vets with NTCs

Only when the cheap youth are ready. When they show they can be, Benning has stated he will make room for the "cheap youth".

I don't think any of our "cheap youth" were better than Higgins this past season. This upcoming season maybe different, but we'll see come training camp.

 

[thepuckmonster]

Only when the cheap youth are ready. When they show they can be, Benning has stated he will make room for the "cheap youth".

I don't think any of our "cheap youth" were better than Higgins this past season. This upcoming season maybe different, but we'll see come training camp.

I think you could maybe say Horvat provides what Higgins does but it's still a pretty small sample size.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Only when the cheap youth are ready. When they show they can be, Benning has stated he will make room for the "cheap youth".

I don't think any of our "cheap youth" were better than Higgins this past season. This upcoming season maybe different, but we'll see come training camp.

This is a drafting problem. When you can't replace guys like Hansen and Higgins internally every 4-5 years their is a significant problem with your drafting/development. There should be enough internal push to move these guys down and eventually out of the line up. No wonder Higgins got a NTC, Gilis new the drafting was so poor he wouldn't be able to replace his passive points any other way.

 

[Cupless44]

This is a drafting problem. When you can't replace guys like Hansen and Higgins internally every 4-5 years their is a significant problem with your drafting/development. There should be enough internal push to move these guys down and eventually out of the line up. No wonder Higgins got a NTC, Gilis new the drafting was so poor he wouldn't be able to replace his passive points any other way.

Bingo!

You have just stated the major problem in the Canuck organization that Benning was hired to fix. Dismal drafting for too many years under Gillis meant that there has been no wave coming from the prospect system to push stale veterans to better performance or out of jobs, or as assets to move. A huge void in players which is why Benning has targeted players in the 20-24 range in trades.

I don't like the Sbisa contract or even Dorsett but there really is a bigger picture and problem to fix.

 

[StrictlyCommercial]

Confidence continuing to decline. Keeping Sbisa to protect against potentially losing Bieksa is... Bad.

When Lack is traded to keep Miller it's time to start dusting off the pitchforks.

 

[thepuckmonster]

Confidence continuing to decline. Keeping Sbisa to protect against potentially losing Bieksa is... Bad.

When Lack is traded to keep Miller it's time to start dusting off the pitchforks.

Losing Bieksa is addition by subtraction on its own and I really love the guy.

 

[Jay Cee]

If someone watched this past playoff series and came away thinking the core was OK we have such a fundamental disagreement on hockey it isn't worth arguing about.

The Sedin line should have been able to beat a crap team like Calgary by itself by their play this year in the regular season. There are always two types of play by this core- the regular season and the playoffs.

Most of our aging core should be gone in two years:

Sedins, Vrbata, Burrows, Higgins, Hansen, Edler, Bieksa, Hamhuis

I would probably keep Hamhuis, and maybe Hansen but given the state of our team, it really depends on what people are willing to pay for them. We can't just sit on these players and lose them for nothing or wait to trade them til they are done providing the good value they provide. We are rebuilding and all these guys should be available for the right price.

 

[thepuckmonster]

If someone watched this past playoff series and came away thinking the core was OK we have such a fundamental disagreement on hockey it isn't worth arguing about.

The Sedin line should have been able to beat a crap team like Calgary by itself by their play this year in the regular season. There are always two types of play by this core- the regular season and the playoffs.

Most of our aging core should be gone in two years:

Sedins, Vrbata, Burrows, Higgins, Hansen, Edler, Bieksa, Hamhuis

I would probably keep Hamhuis, and maybe Hansen but given the state of our team, it really depends on what people are willing to pay for them. We can't just sit on these players and lose them for nothing or wait to trade them til they are done providing the good value they provide. We are rebuilding and all these guys should be available for the right price.

People can have their own opinions on players and it doesn't make them wrong.

 

[castanza]

It's so painful. The guy just doesn't have a clue.

On the Miller signing, jeez. No, Jim. You don't have to pay the guy that much just because he asked for a bit more and some other goalies make it.

You look around and gauge the market. 28 out of 30 teams were COMPLETELY SET in goal and not looking to make any change on July 1. There were 2 teams looking for goalies (Calgary and Vancouver) and 2 goalies (Hiller and Miller) available. Just by being patient, we were in a position to get one for a steal.

If what you say is true, then once Miller signed in Vancouver and only Calgary was left looking for a goalie, since the Flames had complete leverage they should have gotten Hiller for peanuts right? Wrong, Hiller signed for 4.5million per season which at the time would have still be considered an overpayment based on Hillers performance the last few seasons.

Even though Hiller put in a better season compared to Miller this past season, Miller was the more highly regarded goaltender between the two during free agency last year.

People talk about him having no leverage on Kesler because of the 'one team list'. But on Miller, he had every bit of leverage imaginable. The guy had no other interest (and pretty much admitted it) and wanted to be on the West Coast. We had him over a barrel.

Show me the quote where Miller said there was no other interest from other teams.

 

[Jay Cee]

People can have their own opinions on players and it doesn't make them wrong.

Actually, despite what people say about my opinion, I wasn't saying that at all. I was actually heading that kind of thought off by saying if you believe that we have such a disagreement that we will never come close to seeing eye to eye on the issue and it is not worth arguing about.

 

[castanza]

I think you could maybe say Horvat provides what Higgins does but it's still a pretty small sample size.

I agree ...the way Horvat plays on the ice, so far yes. Hopefully he continues to develop next year and if he does it will definitely make Higgins more expendable.

 

[opendoor]

This is a drafting problem. When you can't replace guys like Hansen and Higgins internally every 4-5 years their is a significant problem with your drafting/development. There should be enough internal push to move these guys down and eventually out of the line up. No wonder Higgins got a NTC, Gilis new the drafting was so poor he wouldn't be able to replace his passive points any other way.

You talk like drafting a 35 ES point player is something that happens every year for every team. Over his 4 full seasons as a Canuck Higgins has averaged 35 ES points per 82 games; here's a list of Blackhawk drafted players who've put up 35 ES points even just once in the last 6 years where they've won 3 cups:

Toews
Kane
Saad

So 2 franchise players and one great 2nd round pick. In the last 6-7 drafts they've drafted 1 guy who can produce like Higgins at ES, and we're talking about probably the best run team in the NHL.

Nothing wrong with moving Higgins for a pick or something (though I'm struggling to think why anyone would give up an asset for someone who's apparently so easily replaced), but to pretend like any random player is going to do what he does is ridiculous.

 

[Samzilla]

The argument is, most of the teams with lots of NTC's are teams that look to be competitive. Chicago, Vancouver (in their peak), Pittsburgh, Minny, etc.

You know who doesn't have a lot of NTC's? Buffao, Arizona and Edmonton.

or the kings, who have none

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

JB and Co. want the Canucks run like Detroit (who hasn't done much of anything since 2009).

Personally, I'd rather the team run like a Junior A team: suck balls, acquire good young talent, go all in for a year or two, rinse-repeat.

Good organizations can continually do this but also remain semi-competitive with good scouting (i.e. Kelowna).

Bright flash but extinguished rather quickly.

IMO, this is really how you get to a Cup.

Otherwise you turn into the Blues with 25 straight years of playoffs and nothing to show for it.

Meanwhile, Anaheim, Carolina and Tampa are all enjoying their Cup.

Unfortunately, the owners will not allow this.

 

[castanza]

This is a drafting problem. When you can't replace guys like Hansen and Higgins internally every 4-5 years their is a significant problem with your drafting/development. There should be enough internal push to move these guys down and eventually out of the line up. No wonder Higgins got a NTC, Gilis new the drafting was so poor he wouldn't be able to replace his passive points any other way.

I agree with you that poor drafting contributed to this, but since this a Benning and Team Management thread, lets hope drafting will be different in the Benning era. We shall see, I'm excited for the draft!

 

[thepuckmonster]

JB and Co. want the Canucks run like Detroit (who hasn't done much of anything since 2009).

Personally, I'd rather the team run like a Junior A team: suck balls, acquire good young talent, go all in for a year or two, rinse-repeat.

Good organizations can continually do this but also remain semi-competitive with good scouting (i.e. Kelowna).

Bright flash but extinguished rather quickly.

IMO, this is really how you get to a Cup.

Otherwise you turn into the Blues with 25 straight years of playoffs and nothing to show for it.

Meanwhile, Anaheim, Carolina and Tampa are all enjoying their Cup.

Unfortunately, the owners will not allow this.

You can't run an NHL team like a Junior A team. The orginizational structures are radically different.

Junior A doesn't have a draft. I think you mean major junior but it's still fundamentally different from the NHL.

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

You can't run an NHL team like a Junior A team. The orginizational structures are radically different.

I'm talking strategy-wise.

Instead of trying to make the playoffs every year regardless, the focus should be on winning a Cup.

That's the mentality in Junior.

That's what the Canucks mentality should be but it's not.

The Lightning won a Cup in '04, then **** the bed for a number of years and are back.

Meanwhile, we are stuck in never-ending mediocrity.

 

[Ho Borvat]

or the kings, who have none

Their kind of an outlier, wouldn't you agree? The league average is just over 6 NTC's per team.

Vancouvers at the top-end with 10 of them, but theres a lot of teams (typically playoff teams) in the 8-10 range.

 

[Jay Cee]

It's not an "outlier" it is a concious organizational goal.

 

[Cupless44]

Confidence continuing to decline. Keeping Sbisa to protect against potentially losing Bieksa is... Bad.

When Lack is traded to keep Miller it's time to start dusting off the pitchforks.

Can we stop acting like Lack is a top goalie in the NHL. I get it he is likable, nice guy who has had some good moments but if you listen around the nhl he is down the list after Talbot and others on the trade market priority. A goalie has to move. if he brings the best return so be it. Markstrom is 2 years younger and could end up being better and Demko probably the best of them all long term.

Losing Lack is not the end of the world. None of our 3 goalies are going to win the Vezina. Lets keep some perspective.

 

[PM]

Shouldn't be that much of a surprise that players want to play in LA (warm year round, less media attention, beautiful women, basically a paradise for rich people) and are willing to go there without a NTC. Canadian teams unfortunately don't have that luxury. If the choice is between signing a good player with a NTC or signing a bad player without one I take the good player 10/10 times.

And people act like Higgins' and Hansens' NTC somehow make them untradeable. I'm pretty sure it's a 5-10 team list of teams they can choose not to be traded to, still leaving at least two thirds of the league open. It's not like Miller's NTC where he can choose only 5 teams that we could trade him to and if he has half a brain would just choose LA, NYR, MTL, NAS, BOS or NJD, teams that already have a better starting goaltender than Miller.

 

[The Stig]

JB and Co. want the Canucks run like Detroit (who hasn't done much of anything since 2009).

Personally, I'd rather the team run like a Junior A team: suck balls, acquire good young talent, go all in for a year or two, rinse-repeat.

Good organizations can continually do this but also remain semi-competitive with good scouting (i.e. Kelowna).

Bright flash but extinguished rather quickly.

IMO, this is really how you get to a Cup.

Otherwise you turn into the Blues with 25 straight years of playoffs and nothing to show for it.

Meanwhile, Anaheim, Carolina and Tampa are all enjoying their Cup.

Unfortunately, the owners will not allow this.

Wow.....

First off Junior A doesn't have a draft. Secondly, Detroit has been more successful than any of those teams. Detroit has multiple cups. Anaheim, Carolina and Tampa each have 1. And other than Tampa this year, none of them have been back to the dance. So clearly that system is a one and done deal. I'd rather sustain a winning environment and build my prospects in that than a one and done system. You say Detroit hasn't done much since 2009....well neither have any of those other teams. Just and FYI.

 

[StrictlyCommercial]

Losing Bieksa is addition by subtraction on its own and I really love the guy.

Yep. So we're subtracting by addition to protect against an addition by subtraction.

*headexplodes*

 

[vanuck]

Great post.

Way too much favorable hindsight on Gillis all of a sudden and way too much condemning Benning for inheriting a mess that cant be fixed in 1 year.

Whatever you think of the "mess" that was left here for Benning, he went and actually made this team's short- and long-term prospects even worse.

Man, what a complete show of buffoonery from these guys. It's becoming more and more clear that Benning has an incredibly simple understanding of a complex league. Literally every idea this guy has seems to drive from some core concept he has written down on a whiteboard.

The Miller contract length: he wanted more years so 3 years is a good deal because he got less than he wanted. Huh?

Miller dollar value: starters cost 5.5 to 8 million a year, so 6 million is on the low end! Does it matter that he could have had a starter at 1.15 million, or that Miller is a below average starter, or that he's buying up bad goaltending years (34-36)? Nope. Just has a concept of what a starter costs.

Miller not being a good starter: team is real confidence when he's in net. He actually believes this complete and utter tripe. This is just dumb hockey analysis being paraded around as executive decision making. He's either incapable of admitting a mistake or too myopic to even realize he's made a series of them. Unbelievable.

Sbisa contract: didn't have the prospects to fill that specific slot and D are expensive. Doesn't matter that he traded Garrison (lol) or that he could have acquired a better guy on waivers. He had a spot on his whiteboard depth chart for a 20-something left side physical D, regardless of skill level.

Sbia not being good: nice guy who tries hard and wants to be better so he'll be better. Lines up with his simplistic view of "prospects" like Stewart who will make it because they really want it and guys that really want it find a way.

Dorsett extension: brought us the heinous term "culture carrier", which sounds like something from the expository paragraph at the beginning of a post-apocalyptic novel. It's all "rubbing shoulders" and rah rah nonsense. It's fine to believe in leadership/intangibles, but overpaying for it and lauding it as an actual honest-to-god important component of Bo Horvat's development (and not like a < 1% factor) is crazy. How many million do you spend on shoulder rubbing?

I guess the upshot of all this is that they'll be an easy group to hate over the next little while. These guys are going down with Stan McCammon in Canucks lore.

Yep. This team is ****ed with the type of thinking going on at the management level.