Player Discussion The Future of Ryan Nugent-Hopkins 3: Playoffs Edition

[BudBundy]

Some amazement for you.

This was 2018.

 

[harpoon]

This was 2018.

The poster stipulated the pretty wide open time frame of 'EVER'. I'm quite sure 2018 is included in 'EVER'.

As usual with this board, the more people jump on a bandwagon the more extreme and outlandish the criticism becomes. It's no secret I've never been a big fan of RNH. Fine young man and all that, but as I've been saying for the last half dozen years, lacking in creativity and a willingness to carry the puck. I started the first RNH thread a few months back because I was interested in having a balanced discussion about the player, and what the board thought the team should do with this important, long-serving UFA. I tried to include positives and negative in my op on that thread. Some people just don't want to attempt to make balanced posts though, and most of the thread has been unfortunate over-reactions. It was the same thing when Eberle was getting trashed mercilessly on this board. It's the 'pile on' nature of this board I guess.

Criticizing players for not having enough career SH goals? It's kind of a rare thing to be commenting on, wouldn't you say? And the video I posted is as nice shortie as you're going to see from anyone 'EVER'. Just for the sake of balance.

 

[Cloned]

The poster stipulated the pretty wide open time frame of 'EVER'. I'm quite sure 2018 is included in 'EVER'.

As usual with this board, the more people jump on a bandwagon the more extreme and outlandish the criticism becomes. It's no secret I've never been a big fan of RNH. Fine young man and all that, but as I've been saying for the last half dozen years, lacking in creativity and a willingness to carry the puck. I started the first RNH thread a few months back because I was interested in having a balanced discussion about the player, and what the board thought the team should do with this important, long-serving UFA. I tried to include positives and negative in my op on that thread. Some people just don't want to attempt to make balanced posts though, and most of the thread has been unfortunate over-reactions. It was the same thing when Eberle was getting trashed mercilessly on this board. It's the 'pile on' nature of this board I guess.

Criticizing players for not having enough career SH goals? It's kind of a rare thing to be commenting on, wouldn't you say? And the video I posted is as nice shortie as you're going to see from anyone 'EVER'. Just for the sake of balance.

So wait, are you for or against RNH?

 

[oilexport]

4x4 - max.

 

[majormajor]

Toffoli only got 4X4.25 last year and he actually makes his team better.

There are 32 teams that would love to sign the next Toffoli deal.

There's probably dozens of posts on this board alone bringing up Toffoli as an example of what you could get at $4m.

Realistically, you're probably not going to sign the next Toffoli. I'm not saying it wouldn't be worth the effort, but there's a decent chance you just end up with two wingers that are both worse than RNH.

 

[Drivesaitl]

There are 32 teams that would love to sign the next Toffoli deal.

There's probably dozens of posts on this board alone bringing up Toffoli as an example of what you could get at $4m.

Realistically, you're probably not going to sign the next Toffoli. I'm not saying it wouldn't be worth the effort, but there's a decent chance you just end up with two wingers that are both worse than RNH.

Not sure what you're on about because I was saying the Oilers should get Hoffman or Toffoli the last two offseasons.

 

[Drivesaitl]

The poster stipulated the pretty wide open time frame of 'EVER'. I'm quite sure 2018 is included in 'EVER'.

As usual with this board, the more people jump on a bandwagon the more extreme and outlandish the criticism becomes. It's no secret I've never been a big fan of RNH. Fine young man and all that, but as I've been saying for the last half dozen years, lacking in creativity and a willingness to carry the puck. I started the first RNH thread a few months back because I was interested in having a balanced discussion about the player, and what the board thought the team should do with this important, long-serving UFA. I tried to include positives and negative in my op on that thread. Some people just don't want to attempt to make balanced posts though, and most of the thread has been unfortunate over-reactions. It was the same thing when Eberle was getting trashed mercilessly on this board. It's the 'pile on' nature of this board I guess.

Criticizing players for not having enough career SH goals? It's kind of a rare thing to be commenting on, wouldn't you say? And the video I posted is as nice shortie as you're going to see from anyone 'EVER'. Just for the sake of balance.

I stated this: I would be amazed if Nuge EVER scored a goal like that

Which is intended as present-future tense.

Amaze Past Tense: Conjugation in Present, Past & Past Participle Tense, amaze Verb Forms | English (pasttenses.com)

btw this is your "balanced view" of RNH taken even earlier this season;

harpoon, Jan 19, 2021

"You spelled Ryan Nugent Hopkins wrong. He is hands down the most over-rated Oiler probably in the entire history of the team"

Only mentioning this because you've disliked Nuge general play as much as most posters in this thread. When did you switch to being interested in a balanced view on the player? Better yet what is a balanced view on the player that has 15EV pts in a contract year and riding primarily his bumper role on the PP to a meager 35pt season?

Pretty clearly its time to move on this player unless he drastically alters his contract demands.

You just spelled out why you made the thread, and I knew that, Eberle. Its not the same type of situation. Oilers traded Eberle when he was still young and still in prime. This here contract negotiation is for an older RNH who could be 34 at the end of the contract term. Much different scenario than just keeping Eberle who was signed at reasonable price with term.

 

[Messrules11]

Post game interview Nuge goes on about ‘battle’. It’s always ‘we battled’ yet I see no ‘battle’ in his game.
You could rip that flashy #93 off his jersey and give him #23 put him in the bottom 6 and ask yourself why in the hell are we paying this guy 6m.

 

[Cloned]

I stated this: I would be amazed if Nuge EVER scored a goal like that

Which is intended as present-future tense.

Amaze Past Tense: Conjugation in Present, Past & Past Participle Tense, amaze Verb Forms | English (pasttenses.com)

btw this is your "balanced view" of RNH taken even earlier this season;

harpoon, Jan 19, 2021

"You spelled Ryan Nugent Hopkins wrong. He is hands down the most over-rated Oiler probably in the entire history of the team"

You couldn't have picked another post of his to pull up besides the one where he's quoting one of my worst takes on HF?

 

[Drivesaitl]

You couldn't have picked another post of his to pull up besides the one where he's quoting one of my worst takes on HF?

heh. Many posts I could have picked but that was a doozy from the poster looking for fair and balanced discussion on RNH. Or I guess the poster is just interested in that in 2021, no wait, that WAS his comment this season.

But when it comes to Eberle he was (trashed mercilessly) out of town. (cue violins) lol.

I guess the message is don't trash Eberle. Or don't trash Nuge, sometimes, except when its temporally justified, or something, I'm not sure really.

 

[Cloned]

heh. Many posts I could have picked but that was a doozy from the poster looking for fair and balanced discussion on RNH. Or I guess the poster is just interested in that in 2021, no wait, that WAS his comment this season.

But when it comes to Eberle he was (trashed mercilessly) out of town. (cue violins) lol.

I guess the message is don't trash Eberle. I'm not sure really.

In the Wild West the argument between you two would have been settled by a old fashioned duel.

I guess the HF equivalent of that would be an avatar bet?

 

[Drivesaitl]

In the Wild West the argument between you two would have been settled by a old fashioned duel.

I guess the HF equivalent of that would be an avatar bet?

I don't know, lets ask Guymez...



Whats with your avatar?

 

[Cloned]

I don't know, lets ask Guymez...



Whats with your avatar?

He's seldom-seen these days.

I asked @Wen22 to make me a Supergirl themed playoff avatar. It's tradition now.

 

[Drivesaitl]

He's seldom-seen these days.

I asked @Wen22 to make me a Supergirl themed playoff avatar. It's tradition now.

My tradition is changing my avatar around once a decade, when I get around to it...I tend to land on classics and then I don't want to change them...

Fortunately Drai has given me no reason to want to change avatar or profile

edit; Maybe he should be chewing on a Jet. Hasn't been so far...

 

[iliketorock]

Remember when he was creative and shifty that one year as a rookie. I can't say I watch every Oilers game, and i understand that players change as they adapt and grow with the league. But the only thing he resembles from his first few years is his build. What happened, was it coached out of him or maybe the shoulder injury. It something else?

 

[harpoon]

btw this is your "balanced view" of RNH taken even earlier this season;

harpoon, Jan 19, 2021

"You spelled Ryan Nugent Hopkins wrong. He is hands down the most over-rated Oiler probably in the entire history of the team"

Only mentioning this because you've disliked Nuge general play as much as most posters in this thread. When did you switch to being interested in a balanced view on the player? Better yet what is a balanced view on the player that has 15EV pts in a contract year and riding primarily his bumper role on the PP to a meager 35pt season?

I guess you think that's some kind of 'gotcha' post? Kind of sad, but OK. That post is no indictment of RNH, but rather of the way he is 'over-rated' by the hiss hiss crowd. When I see fans clamoring to give the player $8 million long term, (as more than a few were doing after his big season last year) I know he's over-rated. For me, in the 'modern era' only Horcoff and Klefbom would even be close. That's the meaning of my post. If you read it again real slowly I'm sure you'll see it. That isn't to say that my post history doesn't contain posts that are pretty critical of RNH. You should have chosen one that actually helped make your point.

As to 'when did I switch', I guess it becomes more critical to look at the player with an unjaundiced eye when he is going UFA. Contrary to what some fans seem to believe, there is a risk in walking away from a player like RNH. He's basically 0.75 ppg for his career. That doesn't grow on trees. And yeah, he leeched some of those points off his betters, and his creativity and willingness to carry the puck seems to be heading in the wrong direction, but he still puts up points. There is a substantial risk that the Oilers attempt to replace RNH with someone who turns out to be worse. For example, people want Brandon Saad? Really? No thanks. I mean for every Toffoli there's a Dadonov. And the Oilers brass doesn't exactly inspire confidence with their ability to distinguish between the two.

Pretty clearly its time to move on this player unless he drastically alters his contract demands.

I don't disagree. I said in the op for the first version of this thread that I wanted RNH to take the Eberle discount. I still think that's fair. Eberle is a way better driver of the play imo, but he's older and he doesn't contribute anything on the PK. RNH has to take a pay cut or give up some term if he wants to stay. But maybe he doesn't want to stay, and I could understand him feeling that way too.

You just spelled out why you made the thread, and I knew that, Eberle. Its not the same type of situation. Oilers traded Eberle when he was still young and still in prime. This here contract negotiation is for an older RNH who could be 34 at the end of the contract term. Much different scenario than just keeping Eberle who was signed at reasonable price with term.

Eberle is 31 now and will be 34 when his deal ends. The situations may be more comparable than you think. And no, I didn't make this thread because of Eberle. I made it because some fans were throwing around the kind of dollar figures that I thought were crazy. I wanted to get a broader consensus. But then some people started nit picking shit like 'he doesn't have enough PK goals' so I'll probably leave those fans to wallow on their dog pile and exit the thread.

 

[harpoon]

So wait, are you for or against RNH?

I'm against Supergirl. TV shows, avatars, memes, signatures ... all of it.

 

[ZenOil]

Remember when he was creative and shifty that one year as a rookie. I can't say I watch every Oilers game, and i understand that players change as they adapt and grow with the league. But the only thing he resembles from his first few years is his build. What happened, was it coached out of him or maybe the shoulder injury. It something else?

I watched him on the Rebels and he was such a creative player. A treat to watch. He's definitely lost his magic but in all honesty he was never a complete player....he just got paid like one.

 

[Cloned]

I'm against Supergirl. TV shows, avatars, memes, signatures ... all of it.

This seems extreme and outlandish to me.

 

[Aerchon]

It is likely we lose this playoff series and to date RNH has been meh at best in the playoffs period. Meh this year, his contract year. Is getting older and worse every year, which I was not expecting.

Honestly, I know this is an overreaction from the playoffs but, just moving on from him no matter what money he is asking for may be the best course of action.

Oilers need a change and while losing him hurts keeping him and expecting better results seems insane as well.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I guess you think that's some kind of 'gotcha' post? Kind of sad, but OK. That post is no indictment of RNH, but rather of the way he is 'over-rated' by the hiss hiss crowd. When I see fans clamoring to give the player $8 million long term, (as more than a few were doing after his big season last year) I know he's over-rated. For me, in the 'modern era' only Horcoff and Klefbom would even be close. That's the meaning of my post. If you read it again real slowly I'm sure you'll see it. That isn't to say that my post history doesn't contain posts that are pretty critical of RNH. You should have chosen one that actually helped make your point.

As to 'when did I switch', I guess it becomes more critical to look at the player with an unjaundiced eye when he is going UFA. Contrary to what some fans seem to believe, there is a risk in walking away from a player like RNH. He's basically 0.75 ppg for his career. That doesn't grow on trees. And yeah, he leeched some of those points off his betters, and his creativity and willingness to carry the puck seems to be heading in the wrong direction, but he still puts up points. There is a substantial risk that the Oilers attempt to replace RNH with someone who turns out to be worse. For example, people want Brandon Saad? Really? No thanks. I mean for every Toffoli there's a Dadonov. And the Oilers brass doesn't exactly inspire confidence with their ability to distinguish between the two.
I don't disagree. I said in the op for the first version of this thread that I wanted RNH to take the Eberle discount. I still think that's fair. Eberle is a way better driver of the play imo, but he's older and he doesn't contribute anything on the PK. RNH has to take a pay cut or give up some term if he wants to stay. But maybe he doesn't want to stay, and I could understand him feeling that way too.
Eberle is 31 now and will be 34 when his deal ends. The situations may be more comparable than you think. And no, I didn't make this thread because of Eberle. I made it because some fans were throwing around the kind of dollar figures that I thought were crazy. I wanted to get a broader consensus. But then some people started nit picking shit like 'he doesn't have enough PK goals' so I'll probably leave those fans to wallow on their dog pile and exit the thread.

Just wanting to see if your standards regarding poster comments on players just extend to others or yourself. Thanks for confirming inconsistency. So in other words when you're bleating on an on about Eberle and fans running him out of town and that he was ''trashed mercilessly" readers can know this is a concern of yours that only gets directed at other posters, and of course not yourself.

That said, agreed with most of your post.

I would move from this player, use the contract another way. Its not a given that the Oilers get worse in return than somebody that is a passive player and had 15EV pts. Nor is the only yardstick going to be pts obtained.

Whether the Oilers resign Nuge, or find alternative(s) risk exist in both cases, overpay, declining asset, or not finding the right player(s) in return. But its fait accompli, jmo, to deduce that we ought keep a player just assuming we will get worse. Which you're saying is a substantial risk. The greater risk, plausibly, is in meeting or coming up to the Nuge contract demands.

In anycase it seems like he's done here barring major shift in demand. His play this season suggests the same.

 

[McOilers97]

Post game interview Nuge goes on about ‘battle’. It’s always ‘we battled’ yet I see no ‘battle’ in his game.
You could rip that flashy #93 off his jersey and give him #23 put him in the bottom 6 and ask yourself why in the hell are we paying this guy 6m.

I’ve always found RNH’s post-game comments to be very dull and uninspired. Never seems to be self-reflecting on what he could/should be doing better individually - comments are as vanilla as his play on the ice.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I’ve always found RNH’s post-game comments to be very dull and uninspired. Never seems to be self-reflecting on what he could/should be doing better individually - comments are as vanilla as his play on the ice.

Nailed it. He's disengaged, non passionate, on or off the ice.

Like I've said before this player was involved when it meant being the best he could be as a Junior, in order to get selected, have an NHL payscale, and work hard for a year or two here to parlay that to a longterm "made" contract. The same level of engagement seemed to disappear with the onset of the 6M longterm contract. Really even in the ELC he had a disappointing season. He's had multiple of those. This is another.

I mean the loan remaining hope was that he would gear up for the playoffs and at least make a parting contribution here before he's gone. Too much to hope for?

 

[McOilers97]

Nailed it. He's disengaged, non passionate, on or off the ice.

Like I've said before this player was involved when it meant being the best he could be as a Junior, in order to get selected, have an NHL payscale, and work hard for a year or two here to parlay that to a longterm "made" contract. The same level of engagement seemed to disappear with the onset of the 6M longterm contract. Really even in the ELC he had a disappointing season. He's had multiple of those. This is another.

I mean the loan remaining hope was that he would gear up for the playoffs and at least make a parting contribution here before he's gone. Too much to hope for?

It seems to me like this is a player that doesn’t want to be criticized or be self-critical - he’s content with the money and that’s about it. I really think he might just prefer playing in some mediocre non-hockey market for high $ with less attention. Not sure he gives a damn about playoff hockey and being part of something great for a franchise - if he did, we’d have seen him build on his amazing rookie season and really work hard on improving his shortcomings as a player.

But here we are, a decade post-draft, and pretty much everything that was a weakness for him back then, still is. And now he doesn’t even have that great offensive touch to make up for it.

 

[Drivesaitl]

This is partly about Nuge, partly in general. But its difficult, if not impossible to detect the differences, at draft, and combine, between a player that has the drive to be great, and to win, and to be part of contending, vs players whose dreams are more lifestyle related and just wanting the coin, and nothing else really matters. Nuge is a smart guy, an accomplished guy. He got his. His dream was wealth, and staying relatively safe within the confines of an inherently dangerous sport further to quality of life during and after hockey. As a pragmatic person I can't blame him for that. Given a choice maybe I'd pick similar road.

But as a fan it frustrates that the player chose to be detached from putting it all on the line to help his club succeed. A warrior in hockey, a guy you go to the wall with, is a player like Glenn Anderson that will put it all on the line every game and risk his health knowing any game he could break his neck crashing into the boards with his style of play and played that way his entire career. Because that was the means to giving the team the ultimate reward and pay off.

Not much in scouting today seems to detect one player from the other. At least at draft.

But Glen Sather and Barry Fraser for awhile, they had a sense of which players would go to the wall for a team.