Speculation: The first in a Fleury of posts about how the Pens aren't in a Murray to move a goalie

Status
Not open for further replies.

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
55,763
46,806
I think it's likelier to see 30-35 MM, 45-50 MAF, if situations like Allen/Andersen/Schneider are the precedent.

And that's yet another reason I want Fleury gone ASAP.

**** off with that (not you personally, but the suggestion of starts for each). Matt Murray just backstopped the team to the Stanley Cup, and people are suggesting he should basically be the backup?

That is what is wrong with keeping Fleury. Like clockwork, Fleury somehow finds himself in the starter role, despite the fact it was Murray who backstopped the team to a Cup.

I can't get onboard with that thinking at all. At best, it should be a 50/50 split in starts. Fleury should NOT get the bulk of the starts.
 

Brandinho

deng xiaoping gang
Aug 28, 2005
14,804
1,405
República de Cuba
And that's yet another reason I want Fleury gone ASAP.

**** off with that (not you personally, but the suggestion of starts for each). Matt Murray just backstopped the team to the Stanley Cup, and people are suggesting he should basically be the backup?

That is what is wrong with keeping Fleury. Like clockwork, Fleury somehow finds himself in the starter role, despite the fact it was Murray who backstopped the team to a Cup.

I can't get onboard with that thinking at all. At best, it should be a 50/50 split in starts. Fleury should NOT get the bulk of the starts.

Seconded. Utterly ridiculous if Murray only gets 30-35 games. He played 34 as a rookie. He should at least hit that number as the very low end of his regular season workload and realistically should be penciled in somewhere around 50.
 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Registered User
Sep 5, 2008
28,726
2,346
The downside to "playing it safe" is that there is no "playing it safe."

Sure, we'd all love for MAF and Murray to split time. MAF's a good goalie, and Murray could end up not being ready to be the full time starter. But there are certainties involved, not just hypotheticals. Namely, we WILL have to part with one of MAF or Murray by this time next year because of the pending expansion draft. And the longer we wait, the lower our already extremely limited list of options becomes.

Then, hypothetically, you have issues regarding a goalie tandem situation. Which, whether anyone is comfortable admitting or not, do not work in the long run. Both guys are bona fide starters, and both will end up resenting the situation the longer it goes on.

You have a very small amount of teams capable of taking on a ~$6M/yr contract, and even less who actually need a new starting goalie. Also, take into account the number of goalies who will be available next summer through free agency, and the fact that Tampa is actively shopping a much better goalie in Bishop right now. Our options were Calgary, and Dallas. But Calgary went with Elliott, and Dallas has ~$10M/yr wrapped up in terrible goalies, so we'd have to take back some of their garbage. Hopefully we'd be able to take someone like Nuke or Janmark from them for having to take back Niemi or Lehtonen, but there are talks of Dallas and Tampa being close to a deal involving Bishop, so clock's ticking.

I mean, there is no real "play it safe" option that works out well for us. Either we move MAF as soon as we find someone willing to take him, or we end up with one of the worst-case scenarios; Either we are forced to buy out MAF, resulting in ~$2M/yr in dead cap-space, or we decide a buy out is not an option and we trade Murray--which by then will result in pennies on the dollar for a guy who is a potential franchise goalie for the next decade and Cup winner at 22.
 

BlindWillyMcHurt

ti kallisti
May 31, 2004
34,361
28,415
Seconded. Utterly ridiculous if Murray only gets 30-35 games. He played 34 as a rookie. He should at least hit that number as the very low end of his regular season workload and realistically should be penciled in somewhere around 50.

Yeah. I really think that should be the baseline. What are you really finding out about the guy, otherwise? Isn't that one of the huge arguments on keeping Fleury? That we "aren't sure" if Murray is a starter or capable, or whatever? How will you know if you don't actually test him?

It seems like a decision made, essentially, to not make a decision. If it ends up even as a split, it's kind of a waste because you've only found out what you already pretty much know about Murray (that he should be able to handle 30-40 NHL starts) and you've likely just frustrated him in the process.
 

Sidney the Kidney

One last time
Jun 29, 2009
55,763
46,806
I mean, honestly, when has that ever happened? When has a rookie goalie who carried his team to a Stanley Cup (or gotten to the finals) been relegated to backup the following season?

This is in no way, shape, or form a comparison to situations like Allen, Andersen, Schneider, or whoever else young player had to continue to serve as a backup because those guys didn't carry their team to a Stanley Cup in their rookie year.

Ward took over as #1 after his Cup. Roy took over as #1 after his Cup. Hextall took over as #1 after his finals appearance. Yet Murray's going to be relegated to backup because ...?
 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Registered User
Sep 5, 2008
28,726
2,346
The MAF/Murray situation reminds me a lot of the Bledsoe/Brady situation. Franchise guy who has been with a team his entire career gets injured and his backup comes in and plays like a stud, making the vet expendable. The difference is, we have to move MAF because of the expansion draft.
 

Brandinho

deng xiaoping gang
Aug 28, 2005
14,804
1,405
República de Cuba
The MAF/Murray situation reminds me a lot of the Bledsoe/Brady situation. Franchise guy who has been with a team his entire career gets injured and his backup comes in and plays like a stud, making the vet expendable. The difference is, we have to move MAF because of the expansion draft.

Another analogy is what happened before the last season at my football club. We had two very good goalkeepers - Petr Cech, a 33 year old and one of the all time greats at his position, and Thibaut Courtois, a 23 year old rising star. The club recognized how asinine a timeshare at the position would be and knew that, no matter how much it hurt to lose Cech, you had to get rid of him to allow Courtois to grow into the position and prove himself.

There was far more money on the line in this example, the veteran that the club sold was a vastly superior player to Fleury and the younger player was even less proven than Murray. It blows my mind that my club, which has so often been ineptly managed, was able to make the right call and the Penguins as of now haven't.
 

Zero Pucks

Size matters
May 17, 2009
4,589
303
The downside to "playing it safe" is that there is no "playing it safe."

Sure, we'd all love for MAF and Murray to split time. MAF's a good goalie, and Murray could end up not being ready to be the full time starter. But there are certainties involved, not just hypotheticals. Namely, we WILL have to part with one of MAF or Murray by this time next year because of the pending expansion draft. And the longer we wait, the lower our already extremely limited list of options becomes.

Then, hypothetically, you have issues regarding a goalie tandem situation. Which, whether anyone is comfortable admitting or not, do not work in the long run. Both guys are bona fide starters, and both will end up resenting the situation the longer it goes on.

You have a very small amount of teams capable of taking on a ~$6M/yr contract, and even less who actually need a new starting goalie. Also, take into account the number of goalies who will be available next summer through free agency, and the fact that Tampa is actively shopping a much better goalie in Bishop right now. Our options were Calgary, and Dallas. But Calgary went with Elliott, and Dallas has ~$10M/yr wrapped up in terrible goalies, so we'd have to take back some of their garbage. Hopefully we'd be able to take someone like Nuke or Janmark from them for having to take back Niemi or Lehtonen, but there are talks of Dallas and Tampa being close to a deal involving Bishop, so clock's ticking.

I mean, there is no real "play it safe" option that works out well for us. Either we move MAF as soon as we find someone willing to take him, or we end up with one of the worst-case scenarios; Either we are forced to buy out MAF, resulting in ~$2M/yr in dead cap-space, or we decide a buy out is not an option and we trade Murray--which by then will result in pennies on the dollar for a guy who is a potential franchise goalie for the next decade and Cup winner at 22.

It just makes me want to throw up knowing we have to take back Niemi or Lehtonen in order for Dallas to play ball with us. This better one hell of an asset or player we're getting back in return if something does get worked out with them. Best case scenario they'll take Kunitz off our hands as well, but I wouldn't bank my money on that. Otherwise sending Fleury to Calgary without taking in any salary was easily the best decision we could of made, even if it was for a less than stellar return.
 

Giant Yankee Pens

Registered User
May 17, 2010
589
82
The downside to "playing it safe" is that there is no "playing it safe."

Sure, we'd all love for MAF and Murray to split time. MAF's a good goalie, and Murray could end up not being ready to be the full time starter. But there are certainties involved, not just hypotheticals. Namely, we WILL have to part with one of MAF or Murray by this time next year because of the pending expansion draft. And the longer we wait, the lower our already extremely limited list of options becomes.

Then, hypothetically, you have issues regarding a goalie tandem situation. Which, whether anyone is comfortable admitting or not, do not work in the long run. Both guys are bona fide starters, and both will end up resenting the situation the longer it goes on.

You have a very small amount of teams capable of taking on a ~$6M/yr contract, and even less who actually need a new starting goalie. Also, take into account the number of goalies who will be available next summer through free agency, and the fact that Tampa is actively shopping a much better goalie in Bishop right now. Our options were Calgary, and Dallas. But Calgary went with Elliott, and Dallas has ~$10M/yr wrapped up in terrible goalies, so we'd have to take back some of their garbage. Hopefully we'd be able to take someone like Nuke or Janmark from them for having to take back Niemi or Lehtonen, but there are talks of Dallas and Tampa being close to a deal involving Bishop, so clock's ticking.

I mean, there is no real "play it safe" option that works out well for us. Either we move MAF as soon as we find someone willing to take him, or we end up with one of the worst-case scenarios; Either we are forced to buy out MAF, resulting in ~$2M/yr in dead cap-space, or we decide a buy out is not an option and we trade Murray--which by then will result in pennies on the dollar for a guy who is a potential franchise goalie for the next decade and Cup winner at 22.

I would have to disagree here. If they buy out Fleury, that's the worst case. Trading Murray will NOT happen. As has been stated many times, they would offer a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th rd pick plus maybe a roster player to LV to have them not take Murray.

Why would LV do this? because the pens will buy out MAF if they don't. Why would LV just not call the pens bluff? because LV doesn't care if the pens have 2M in cap space wasted. They are not in the same division, or even the same conference. They would be giving up a FREE 3rd rd pick and roster player, so that some team in another conference can have 2M of dead cap space. Which helps LV more?

I see this playing out as the pens using both goalies this year and playing the hot hand come playoff time, and then making a trade with LV to not pick Murray. Then after the Expansion draft, MAF would be more inclined to waive his NTC so he can start. Hence, you have 30 teams which to seek out a trade for him for the 2017-2018 season. Much more doable. Losing Murray, never an option.

Just my two meaningless cents.
 

Ugene Magic

EVIL LAUGH
Oct 17, 2008
54,352
18,779
Pittsburgh
I mean, honestly, when has that ever happened? When has a rookie goalie who carried his team to a Stanley Cup (or gotten to the finals) been relegated to backup the following season?

This is in no way, shape, or form a comparison to situations like Allen, Andersen, Schneider, or whoever else young player had to continue to serve as a backup because those guys didn't carry their team to a Stanley Cup in their rookie year.

Ward took over as #1 after his Cup. Roy took over as #1 after his Cup. Hextall took over as #1 after his finals appearance. Yet Murray's going to be relegated to backup because ...?

Who were those guys stealing jobs from?

It's just not the same.

You are trying too hard.
 

Zero Pucks

Size matters
May 17, 2009
4,589
303
I would have to disagree here. If they buy out Fleury, that's the worst case. Trading Murray will NOT happen. As has been stated many times, they would offer a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th rd pick plus maybe a roster player to LV to have them not take Murray.

Why would LV do this? because the pens will buy out MAF if they don't. Why would LV just not call the pens bluff? because LV doesn't care if the pens have 2M in cap space wasted. They are not in the same division, or even the same conference. They would be giving up a FREE 3rd rd pick and roster player, so that some team in another conference can have 2M of dead cap space. Which helps LV more?

I see this playing out as the pens using both goalies this year and playing the hot hand come playoff time, and then making a trade with LV to not pick Murray. Then after the Expansion draft, MAF would be more inclined to waive his NTC so he can start. Hence, you have 30 teams which to seek out a trade for him for the 2017-2018 season. Much more doable. Losing Murray, never an option.

Just my two meaningless cents.

Why would Fleury be more inclined to waive his NTC then instead of now?
 

systemsgo

fire mj
Apr 24, 2014
3,522
0
Why would Fleury be more inclined to waive his NTC then instead of now?

Because then Vegas has already picked another player and the Pens now have 2 goalies & can take their time to get rid of Fleury.

It's based on the fact that the Pens have paid Vegas to not take Murray, which, I don't know. If I were Vegas, I'd take Murray or demand a first rounder. It doesn't make any sense for the Pens to pay a first rounder to essentially keep Fleury for a season when they could've gotten a 2nd+ for him and signed a lousier back up for less.
 

Zero Pucks

Size matters
May 17, 2009
4,589
303
Because then Vegas has already picked another player and the Pens now have 2 goalies & can take their time to get rid of Fleury.

It's based on the fact that the Pens have paid Vegas to not take Murray, which, I don't know. If I were Vegas, I'd take Murray or demand a first rounder. It doesn't make any sense for the Pens to pay a first rounder to essentially keep Fleury for a season when they could've gotten a 2nd+ for him and signed a lousier back up for less.

Yeah. Other than losing Murray, that's easily the next worst case scenario. There should be no need for it to come to that.
 

meechimindoh

Registered User
Dec 13, 2009
82
6
Another analogy is what happened before the last season at my football club. We had two very good goalkeepers - Petr Cech, a 33 year old and one of the all time greats at his position, and Thibaut Courtois, a 23 year old rising star. The club recognized how asinine a timeshare at the position would be and knew that, no matter how much it hurt to lose Cech, you had to get rid of him to allow Courtois to grow into the position and prove himself.

There was far more money on the line in this example, the veteran that the club sold was a vastly superior player to Fleury and the younger player was even less proven than Murray. It blows my mind that my club, which has so often been ineptly managed, was able to make the right call and the Penguins as of now haven't.

I know this is a hockey board but this is simply not good analogy.
Before returning to Chelsea, Courtois was on loan to Atletico Madrid for three years where he played as a starting goalkeeper in top tier team of best football league in Europe in 154 games with great sucess and in that time he took over no1 jersey in Belgum national team.
He was as sure deal as you'll get when replacing your older goalkeeper.
 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Registered User
Sep 5, 2008
28,726
2,346
It just makes me want to throw up knowing we have to take back Niemi or Lehtonen in order for Dallas to play ball with us. This better one hell of an asset or player we're getting back in return if something does get worked out with them. Best case scenario they'll take Kunitz off our hands as well, but I wouldn't bank my money on that. Otherwise sending Fleury to Calgary without taking in any salary was easily the best decision we could of made, even if it was for a less than stellar return.

I'd begrudgingly take on Niemi or Lehtonen, but I'd hope like Hell the Stars would add a significant piece to sweeten the deal. MAF's contract is not easy to fit under the cap for most teams, but he's still a good goalie capable of backstopping a top team. Even if we had to add someone like Pouliot, a prospect, or a pick to get Dallas to do it, I'd be trying to get Janmark or Nuke from them in the deal so we at least get something out of it.

I would have to disagree here. If they buy out Fleury, that's the worst case. Trading Murray will NOT happen. As has been stated many times, they would offer a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th rd pick plus maybe a roster player to LV to have them not take Murray.

Why would LV do this? because the pens will buy out MAF if they don't. Why would LV just not call the pens bluff? because LV doesn't care if the pens have 2M in cap space wasted. They are not in the same division, or even the same conference. They would be giving up a FREE 3rd rd pick and roster player, so that some team in another conference can have 2M of dead cap space. Which helps LV more?

I see this playing out as the pens using both goalies this year and playing the hot hand come playoff time, and then making a trade with LV to not pick Murray. Then after the Expansion draft, MAF would be more inclined to waive his NTC so he can start. Hence, you have 30 teams which to seek out a trade for him for the 2017-2018 season. Much more doable. Losing Murray, never an option.

Just my two meaningless cents.

First off, we have no idea how the Pens feel regarding the ~$2M/yr in dead space in a potential MAF buyout. There's a non-zero chance they opt for moving Murray instead of potentially ****ing themselves over regarding a Dumo raise, Murray raise, and the re-signing of guys like Bonino and Hornqvist. I would like to think the team would buy MAF out before trading off Murray, but who knows?

Secondly, the longer we wait the worse this situation becomes. Plain and simple, imo. Goalie by committee never works, and MAF's already pretty sour on the idea of Murray taking this team by storm. He may not be a lockerroom poison, but you can be damn sure he resents the fact that his team, with guys he's grown up with and been friends with for a decade, is now Murray's team. That's only gonna get worse as time goes on, and it's gonna cause division in the room between guys who consciously or subconsciously take sides. The goalie tandem is a gigantic mess waiting to happen. There needs to be a clear and defined situation. Yanking MAF or Murray after a bad game or two is not the way to go.

Thirdly, are these bribe trades even allowed? I know there's nothing specifically in the expansion details, but how does that work? I don't know. The uncertainty of the whole bribe situation coupled with the multitude of other factors working against the "play it safe" are just way too much.

We have to get rid of MAF asap, ideally to Dallas as they're the only team left desperate for a starter. Even if we have to take back a ****** contract in Niemi or Lehtonen--which we absolutely, without a question will--we might also be able to get a guy like Janmark or Nuke. That's my last bastion of hope for the MAF/Murray/Expansion headache, imo. If we can't make a deal work with Dallas, or they go out and get Bishop, I believe we will 100% have to either buy MAF out and have ~$2M/yr in dead cap-space, or we'll be forced to deal Murray.
 

Honour Over Glory

Fire Sully
Jan 30, 2012
77,316
42,447
I am hoping for 5 things to happen next summer.

1. Fleury plays well, but Murray plays better (Andersen/Gibson situation).
2. Benning is still the Canucks GM.
3. Miller & Markstrom play mediocre hockey and Miller bids Vancouver adieu.
4. Demko has a rough year and doesn't look ready yet.
5. JR calls Benning and bends him over for one more time, Naslund payback half way completed with said franchise by sending them Fleury for a package of picks and prospects.
 

shureshot66

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
11,031
35
Thirdly, are these bribe trades even allowed? I know there's nothing specifically in the expansion details, but how does that work? I don't know. The uncertainty of the whole bribe situation coupled with the multitude of other factors working against the "play it safe" are just way too much.

Yup.

That will give the Las Vegas team more time to wheel and deal ahead of the expansion draft with teams wanting to pay a price in order to have Las Vegas not pick a certain player from their roster. Daly said the league has no issue with these types of trades as long as they're above-board.

"I think our feeling on that, and one of the reasons we'll have a player transaction window in advance, is that those deals are legitimate deals," said Daly. "Obviously clubs are getting value for making those commitments; but those commitments will be transparent and part of a bona fide player transaction, as opposed to handshakes before they’re able to do those."

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/42820/rumblings-whats-steven-stamkos-going-to-do-next

But yeah, as you and many others have pointed out, it really shouldn't come to that. In that scenario, both goalies would still be on the roster for 2017-18, except Murray would be on his next contract. And you've got just an irresponsible amount committed to goaltending then.
 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Registered User
Sep 5, 2008
28,726
2,346
Ah, weird.

If I'm Vegas, and Pittsburgh calls me up in June desperately trying to unload a pick or prospect in an effort not to grab Murray, I'm chuckling and hanging up the phone. If Murray's available--which again, I am 99.9% certain he won't be as we'd buy MAF out first--I'm not taking anything short of like a top-10 pick for an agreement not to go out and get him. /shrug
 

shureshot66

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
11,031
35
Ah, weird.

If I'm Vegas, and Pittsburgh calls me up in June desperately trying to unload a pick or prospect in an effort not to grab Murray, I'm chuckling and hanging up the phone. If Murray's available--which again, I am 99.9% certain he won't be as we'd buy MAF out first--I'm not taking anything short of like a top-10 pick for an agreement not to go out and get him. /shrug
They'd settle for less. They know they're not getting Murray. And if they get too greedy, they force the Fleury buyout option and don't get any extra assets on top of their expansion draft pick. Plus a UFA Fleury likely wouldn't consider signing with them.

Still a dumb situation for the Pens to stick themselves in regardless.
 

Scandale du Jour

JordanStaal#1Fan
Mar 11, 2002
62,257
28,970
Asbestos, Qc
www.angelfire.com
I mean, honestly, when has that ever happened? When has a rookie goalie who carried his team to a Stanley Cup (or gotten to the finals) been relegated to backup the following season?

This is in no way, shape, or form a comparison to situations like Allen, Andersen, Schneider, or whoever else young player had to continue to serve as a backup because those guys didn't carry their team to a Stanley Cup in their rookie year.

Ward took over as #1 after his Cup. Roy took over as #1 after his Cup. Hextall took over as #1 after his finals appearance. Yet Murray's going to be relegated to backup because ...?

Roy was really in a 1A/1B situation after winning the Cup in 1986; he played 46 games to Brian Hewayd's 37. These totals include relief appearance.

Cam Ward, yup, clear number 1 in 06-07. He played 60 games to John Grahame's 28 games.

Hextall didn't became the clear number 1 after his final appearance, he was the number 1 in 86-87.

At worse, IMO, it should be 60-40 in favor of Murray. However, it will probably be 60-40 in favor of Fleury.
 

Scandale du Jour

JordanStaal#1Fan
Mar 11, 2002
62,257
28,970
Asbestos, Qc
www.angelfire.com
Ah, weird.

If I'm Vegas, and Pittsburgh calls me up in June desperately trying to unload a pick or prospect in an effort not to grab Murray, I'm chuckling and hanging up the phone. If Murray's available--which again, I am 99.9% certain he won't be as we'd buy MAF out first--I'm not taking anything short of like a top-10 pick for an agreement not to go out and get him. /shrug

Can Vegas be on Fleury's no-trade list? Because, if they can't, well, we might kill two birds with one stone and trade them Fleury for draft picks and then protect Murray. Not ideal, but much better than having to buy out Fleury/pay them prime assets to not take Murray.
 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Registered User
Sep 5, 2008
28,726
2,346
Can Vegas be on Fleury's no-trade list? Because, if they can't, well, we might kill two birds with one stone and trade them Fleury for draft picks and then protect Murray. Not ideal, but much better than having to buy out Fleury/pay them prime assets to not take Murray.

Not sure. Are they an official team yet?

That's an interesting question.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad