Speculation: The first in a Fleury of posts about how the Pens aren't in a Murray to move a goalie

[KIRK]

The goalie we drafted is the "most NHL ready" goalie available in this draft, but that's still like 2-3 years away most likely. MAF's deal has 3 more years left, right? I could see them grooming the goalie we just drafted as him replacement for sure.

I just wanted us to make a decision on a goalie at the draft. If that Calgary rumor was true about Murray, trade him for 6th overall. There's a legit chance his value won't ever be higher than that. If they wanted to go with Murray, trade MAF to Calgary for a 2nd and next year's 3rd. If they traded MAF they would have opened up 6 mil in cap, two birds with one stone.

The fact that they haven't traded either yet makes me wonder what their plan is for the expansion draft. Sure we can trade Murray if it comes down to it, but the return might only be slightly more than what the compensation for losing a player to expansion would be.

As I said, the only way to keep the team in tact, including Kunitz and Fleury, was to have a 600K backup. That means you really couldn't trade Murray, at least not until next summer.

Only way Murray is here on expansion draft day is if he's led the Pens to another cup OR Fleury implodes (in which case it's possible they buy Fleury out). Short of that, he's gone.

 

[Fordy]

For whatever reason, Fleury has inspired this almost cult-like devotion from a percentage of the fanbase (and apparently all of management). It's actually mindboggling to me.

I wonder if some Vancouver fans still defend Dan Cloutier with every ounce of their being.

it's because he smiles in the locker room and has a funny accent. did you see those yellow pads?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I just don't see how that room doesn't become a mess next year. A cup run is one thing. Guys could rationalize it . . . Fleury was cold, coming off a concussion. But, next year, during the regular season, when Murray hits a rough patch?

I could see the argument either way. Trade Murray, get a boat load of futures, move a Kunitz so the numbers work OR move Fleury, get a lower priced backup, put the money to doing more for Sid and Geno so you can justify keeping HBK together without Sid and Geno wondering WTF.

The only 100% wrong choice here was to avoid having to make any hard choices. And that's exactly what JR has done here.

That's what makes me so frustrated with this situation. Pick a goalie as your starter and move on from the other one. Instead, we've got nothing but a year long potential goalie drama to look forward to.

And to make matters worse, when he is forced to make a decision next year, the assets are going to be pitiful in comparison to what he could have gotten for either guy this year.

 

[Malkinstheman]

Actually, you missed the worse part . . .

EDIT: **** me, IC said it's 12 teams can accept. This is easy: Washington, NY Rangers, Anaheim, Los Angeles, San Jose, Montreal, Boston, Tampa, New Jersey, Nashville, Toronto, Florida.

Well we better collectively pray that Gibson is total garbage next year. Or Tampa trades bishop and vaseline is garbage.

 

[KIRK]

For whatever reason, Fleury has inspired this almost cult-like devotion from a percentage of the fanbase (and apparently all of management). It's actually mindboggling to me.

I wonder if some Vancouver fans still defend Dan Cloutier with every ounce of their being.

And the core players.

And the media.

 

[Marns]

I don't understand this train of thought. Worst case scenario is to buy out Fleury.

Because this board loves nothing more than being melodramatic.

 

[Fordy]

Only way Murray is here on expansion draft day is if he's led the Pens to another cup OR Fleury implodes (in which case it's possible they buy Fleury out). Short of that, he's gone.

i'd love to have both, will get neither

 

[KIRK]

Well be better collectively pray that Gibson is total garbage next year. Or Tampa trades bishop and vaseline is garbage.

Sounds like a plan.

i'd love to have both, will get neither

Which is why Murray will be gone.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

And the core players.

And the media.

You know, I don't actually blame the players. They're friends. It's natural to want your buddy to keep his job at all costs.

Management should know better. They should be able to separate Marc-Andre the person from Marc-Andre the goalie or Marc-Andre the asset.

It's like if I am friends with a co-worker. It's one thing if I look the other way when he comes in late and hung over. But the business would be failing if upper management also thought it was as funny as I did.

 

[metalan2]

Should have sent him to Calgary for a second. It's madness to hang on to him, I'd trade him for a fifth to get his contract off the books and to protect Murray.

 

[deakka]

MAF wont get moved. As other have stated. He can choose the teams for his list so that he become untradable.

No matter if we "only get a 7th round pick". No team on his approved list will want him since they either are set in goal. Or have a young stud goaltender they wanna protect in the expansion draft.

Since i dont see us being able to trade MAF after he makes his new NTC list, it only leaves 4 options.

1. Try to bribe Vegas not to take Murray

2. Lose Murray for nothing.

3. Trade Murray for scraps. every team will know we are desperate before the draft and take advantage of that

4. Buy out MAF

Great choice there JR. All because we just had to keep the family together for another season.

 

[KIRK]

You know, I don't actually blame the players. They're friends. It's natural to want your buddy to keep his job at all costs.

Management should know better. They should be able to separate Marc-Andre the person from Marc-Andre the goalie or Marc-Andre the asset.

It's like if I am friends with a co-worker. It's one thing if I look the other way when he comes in late and hung over. But the business would be failing if upper management also thought it was as funny as I did.

It's the same thing as Kunitz. Sid and Geno both love him. Only way you're going to save Sid and Geno from Kunitz is by making a hard choice (and perhaps with an intervention, but that's another subject for another time).

JR doesn't want to do it. He wants to have his cake and eat it too, and if Murray doesn't lead the Pens to the cup next year, he'll get what he wants . . . the excuse to trade Murray, because it's better 'asset management' than buying out Fleury.

 

[Fordy]

You know, I don't actually blame the players. They're friends. It's natural to want your buddy to keep his job at all costs.

Management should know better. They should be able to separate Marc-Andre the person from Marc-Andre the goalie or Marc-Andre the asset.

It's like if I am friends with a co-worker. It's one thing if I look the other way when he comes in late and hung over. But the business would be failing if upper management also thought it was as funny as I did.

i dunno, as a professional player, should you really be pumping up your friends to the media to the detriment of your team and another of your teammates? a young kid putting up a historic performance?

 

[Waffle Fries]

Actually, you missed the worse part . . .

EDIT: **** me, IC said it's 12 teams can accept. This is easy: Washington, NY Rangers, Anaheim, Los Angeles, San Jose, Montreal, Boston, Tampa, New Jersey, Nashville, Toronto, Florida.

I'm not sure what you're saying. Fleury's NTC allows him to pick 12 teams that he can not be traded to. Not 12 teams he will accept.

And the core players.

And the media.

They're human.

 

[SEALBound]

Before everyone freaks out - let me be a small voice of reason. On HFBoards, especially in the off season when looking at the upcoming season we tend to think in absolutes. We tend to look at things only a vacuum and rarely consider any of the bajillion factors that go into a hockey season.

Let's take Bennett for example. Or even Perron. Last season posters made lines ups that had guys like Bennett and Perron on the third line. Poster here freaked out to epic proportions...WHY!? YOU CAN'T HAVE A GUY LIKE PERRON OR BENNETT ON THE THIRD LINE!!! They are NOT third line players! Trade them! Okay fair enough...but what if Perron doesn't perform...what if Bennett doesn't perform...what if either gets hurt? Well you need that depth to account for things like that.

When we look at trade destinations for Fleury it is important to put it into the perspective of "Current trade locations for Fleury...today". We have no idea what the upcoming season brings us. We have no idea who performs well and who doesn't. We have no idea who gets hurt and who doesn't.

Right now, it may look bleak. Coming February, we have have teams lined up to get Fleury. What is Anderson and Hamburgerler don't pan out in Ottawa, what if Lehner doesn't in Buffalo, what if Elliot poos the bed in Calgary, what if Allen poos the bed and can't handle the load in St Louis?

Point is, a lot can change in short order. What is not a likely destination today, may be a hot destination tomorrow.

They want to start with two goalies. I get it. Sort of. Worse things than having MAF and MM as 1A and 1B going into the season.

Things can change. This wasn't our one and only shot. There is worry, sure. Complete panic? No. Save that for 1 year from now.

 

[KIRK]

MAF wont get moved. As other have stated. He can choose the teams for his list so that he become untradable.

No matter if we "only get a 7th round pick". No team on his approved list will want him since they either are set in goal. Or have a young stud goaltender they wanna protect in the expansion draft.

Since i dont see us being able to trade MAF after he makes his new NTC list, it only leaves 4 options.

1. Try to bribe Vegas not to take Murray

2. Lose Murray for nothing.

3. Trade Murray for scraps. every team will know we are desperate before the draft and take advantage of that

4. Buy out MAF

Great choice there JR. All because we just had to keep the family together for another season.

1. If you're the Las Vegas GM, what bribe is there to NOT make you pick Murray? A late 1st? JR giving you Maatta for a 6th? JR has nothing of remotely comparable value to offer.

2. Won't happen.

3. Won't be scraps but will be less than you could've gotten yesterday . . . I'd guess maybe what Andersen went for.

4. Not pleasant.

Murray leads the Pens to a cup OR Fleury implodes/is the reason the Pens lose a playoffs series, I suspect #4 is a little more likely than #3.

Failing that, it's door #3.

 

[Night Shift]

I honestly think it has more to do with Murray not playing a full season, only 12 games. I think they are serious about trading fleury but they need more body of work from Murray. (Like a full season with a cup run and not just 1 cup run with no regular season)Its just very unfortunate there is an expansion draft and it seems that the pens in order to go with a goalie with only limited experience, that they should ask more than what fleury is really worth. It doesn't make it right but that is what it is- I understand the pens thinking. The problem is the timing. And the timing sucks bad.but having a cup...I'll take this problem for just having the cup

 

[KIRK]

Before everyone freaks out - let me be a small voice of reason. On HFBoards, especially in the off season when looking at the upcoming season we tend to think in absolutes. We tend to look at things only a vacuum and rarely consider any of the bajillion factors that go into a hockey season.

Let's take Bennett for example. Or even Perron. Last season posters made lines ups that had guys like Bennett and Perron on the third line. Poster here freaked out to epic proportions...WHY!? YOU CAN'T HAVE A GUY LIKE PERRON OR BENNETT ON THE THIRD LINE!!! They are NOT third line players! Trade them! Okay fair enough...but what if Perron doesn't perform...what if Bennett doesn't perform...what if either gets hurt? Well you need that depth to account for things like that.

When we look at trade destinations for Fleury it is important to put it into the perspective of "Current trade locations for Fleury...today". We have no idea what the upcoming season brings us. We have no idea who performs well and who doesn't. We have no idea who gets hurt and who doesn't.

Right now, it may look bleak. Coming February, we have have teams lined up to get Fleury. What is Anderson and Hamburgerler don't pan out in Ottawa, what if Lehner doesn't in Buffalo, what if Elliot poos the bed in Calgary, what if Allen poos the bed and can't handle the load in St Louis?

Point is, a lot can change in short order. What is not a likely destination today, may be a hot destination tomorrow.

They want to start with two goalies. I get it. Sort of. Worse things than having MAF and MM as 1A and 1B going into the season.

Things can change. This wasn't our one and only shot. There is worry, sure. Complete panic? No. Save that for 1 year from now.

Fleury's list is 12 teams where he'll go per IC:

Montreal, Toronto, Boston, Rangers, Washington, Anaheim, LA, San Jose, Nashville, Tampa, Florida, New Jersey.

Who's trading for Fleury in 6 months?

I get where this is going. Fleury is the Pens guy, and they'll just work through the rotation this season as best they can. Murray will be traded in a year UNLESS he leads the Pens to another cup or Fleury implodes. He was just ready too soon. He was too good, too soon. It's why the Pens just drafted another goalie prospect, to compete with Jarry and McGuire as heir apparent for three years from now.

 

[Rufus]

Trading a goalie and getting a cheap backup was the only thing JR had to do. If he did that and nothing else the offseason would be perfectly fine. He failed.

It's not Benning level yet, but that's the territory we're approaching here.

Offseason's barely started? Seems premature to make that assessment

 

[Waffle Fries]

Fleury's list is 12 teams where he'll go per IC:

Montreal, Toronto, Boston, Rangers, Washington, Anaheim, LA, San Jose, Nashville, Tampa, Florida, New Jersey.

Who's trading for Fleury in 6 months?

This is incorrect. His list is 12 teams where he won't per every source ever.

https://www.capfriendly.com/players/marc-andre-fleury1

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/...ear-23-million-extension/stories/201411050241

http://www.thefourthperiod.com/no_trade_list.html

 

[Ogrezilla]

Well, that's one way. He did say we'll see how it goes.

could another longshot be a team with a NMC goalie basically taking Fleury as bait to lower the chances someone else on their team gets taken in expansion? Say a team with 4 good D. We'd hopefully give them Fleury for less than the expansion team would want to not take their guy.

 

[SEALBound]

Fleury's list is 12 teams where he'll go per IC:

Montreal, Toronto, Boston, Rangers, Washington, Anaheim, LA, San Jose, Nashville, Tampa, Florida, New Jersey.

Who's trading for Fleury in 6 months?

I get where this is going. Fleury is the Pens guy. Murray will be traded in a year UNLESS he leads the Pens to another cup or Fleury implodes. He was just ready too soon. He was too good, too soon. It's why the Pens just drafted another goalie prospect, to compete with Jarry and McGuire as heir apparent for three years from now.

Penguins can still at any time ask him to waive. That list is where you can make the trade without his approval.

He can do a trade to the others if he agrees to waive.

 

[WhiteWalker*]

Not sure why anybody would want a 2nd for Fleury. So get a 2nd that might pan out in 3-4 years and lose a prospect that panned out. Worst case scenario just let Vegas take Fleury. He needs to do us a solid and waive his NMC though.

 

[ColePens]

The reality is just simple - if this goes past July 1st, we are going to have to do crazy work to keep Murray. It will not be easy.

 

[Pens1566]

Typical. Two weeks from a cup win, sky is falling. The same people *****ing about not taking whatever rumored deal Calgary offered would be the same ones *****ing halfway into next season when Murray ***** the bed in 3 or 4 straight games.

Look, he wasn't nearly as good as the world made him out to be in the playoffs. Yeah, he's lit the world up everywhere he's played, but he gave up some stinkers in each round. And they were the same ones over and over and over again.

Unless an offer is an absolute landslide win for us, I still think the best course is to see exactly what we have over a bit bigger sample size. **** happens, players get injured. Not dealing MAF yesterday (or today) is not the end of the world. Put down the straight razors and step off the edge of the bridge.