THE Fire Torts Thread

[burple]

Torts playoff line management just brings into focus, how a player like William Karlsson can leave this organization, and go to Vegas, and become an elite goal scorer, 1st line center. Torts doesnt coach to particular players strengths . He demands that players fit his system, and will coach them to change their game to play his system. And that is why I think hes a terrible coach for the jackets. Karlsson was buried in a checking role, lucky to get 12 minutes a night. He had to not play to his strengths, but played the role Torts wanted for him , in limited minutes. He didnt become ultra skilled the moment he left this organization. People try to dismiss his production this season, try to dismiss his shooting percentage, etc. But he is a highly skilled hockey player that is good in the faceoff dot, is a very fast skater, and has the ability to flat out snipe the puck. Keep in mind, this is a position that we were very shallow at. Really makes me wonder what they look for in practice. Now, lets look at Bjorkstrand. he's one of the league leaders in points per minutes played, when Torts came out with his famous, he needs to check to play, Bs. Bjork plummeted the rest of the season, and was a shell of himself.

Milano... he was the goal scoring leader for this team early in the season, and couldn't even stick here. He gets nicked up, goes back to Cleveland, was productive, they bring him back up, and he ends up with 14 goals in 55 games. This is with 11/12 minutes per night.

We get to the playoffs, Wennberg gets hurt the first game, and Torts totally goes away from rolling 4 lines , essentially sticks with 3 lines, and skates his forwards into the ground. Keep in mind that 88% of teams that start a series up 2-0 , go on to win. Yet we have people in here saying this thread is ridiculous. Personally, Im tired of mediocrity , or trust the process. A good coach , coaches his players to their strengths. Torts tries to change all players into what he wants as a hockey player, and is massively holding back their potential.

I think this is a very good and fair criticism of Torts, and this is why I think the Jackets need to move on from him, and the sooner the better. As a Sharks fan we went through this for years with Koala. People would bring up his rather obvious shortcomings and point out how Koala's coaching decisions were contributing to the team's perennial failure to get to the next level and we'd get the same refrains - "who out there is better?" "It's on the players to perform" etc etc. The Sharks finally canned him and hired Pete DeBoer, who has been a MUCH better coach. All of which is to say: this is a critical time for Jarmo and the organization. They can treat the William Karllson debacle as a fluke and insist that Torts is their guy, or they can hold Torts responsible for burying skilled young players in checking roles and stunting their development and, most importantly, go out and find the right coach for the team.

 

[Maylo]

All of which is to say: this is a critical time for Jarmo and the organization. They can treat the William Karllson debacle as a fluke and insist that Torts is their guy, or they can hold Torts responsible for burying skilled young players in checking roles and stunting their development and, most importantly, go out and find the right coach for the team.

Torts is JD idea. Do you really see this guy as progressive minded and forward thinking? He reminds me of drunk uncle at your wedding who complaints about kids these days and good ole times.

 

[Monk]

Torts is JD idea. Do you really see this guy as progressive minded and forward thinking? He reminds me of drunk uncle at your wedding who complaints about kids these days and good ole times.

Being a drunk uncle and being good at building a hockey team are not mutually exclusive. Throw a picture of yourself up here and we'll judge you by your appearance, as well.

 

[KJ Dangler]

I think this is a very good and fair criticism of Torts, and this is why I think the Jackets need to move on from him, and the sooner the better. As a Sharks fan we went through this for years with Koala. People would bring up his rather obvious shortcomings and point out how Koala's coaching decisions were contributing to the team's perennial failure to get to the next level and we'd get the same refrains - "who out there is better?" "It's on the players to perform" etc etc. The Sharks finally canned him and hired Pete DeBoer, who has been a MUCH better coach. All of which is to say: this is a critical time for Jarmo and the organization. They can treat the William Karllson debacle as a fluke and insist that Torts is their guy, or they can hold Torts responsible for burying skilled young players in checking roles and stunting their development and, most importantly, go out and find the right coach for the team.

Absolutely. Thanks for your feedback. Blowing a 2-0 series lead, in which the team wins the series 88% of the time, and make no mistake, his line management was a huge reason for this . You see patterns. People want to explain Karlsson off as a fluke, its not a fluke, he was not given an opportunity to play his game, in a style that utilized his skillset. Torts is now doing the same thing to Bjork, Milano. The coaching staff was with Karlsson for almost 2 seasons, so either they failed miserably in recognizing his talents, and abilities, or they were not using his skillset, and happy with him playing a checking role. The problem is, there is no expectation for this franchise. Some are just happy we made the playoffs, and thats a huge accomplishment. We are what, 18 years into the franchise, and this team is the only team to not advance out of the first round ?

 

[burple]

Torts is JD idea. Do you really see this guy as progressive minded and forward thinking? He reminds me of drunk uncle at your wedding who complaints about kids these days and good ole times.

I guess we're going to find out. My impression has been that JD and Jarmo did a pretty good job in St. Louis, and JD was smart enough to hire Jarmo, who I believe is a very good GM. But even good GMs can stick with coaches for too long. Doug Wilson's a pretty good GM in San Jose, and he stuck with Todd McClellan for a couple years too long.

 

[Maylo]

Being a drunk uncle and being good at building a hockey team are not mutually exclusive. Throw a picture of yourself up here and we'll judge you by your appearance, as well.

I didn't know JD was operating incognito. I heard enough of his interviews as well to make a judgement, thank you.

 

[Monk]

I didn't know JD was operating incognito. I heard enough of his interviews as well to make a judgement, thank you.

Well, you could have said that the first time, then, I guess?

 

[blahblah]

Nothing makes me buy into an argument faster than the revisionist retelling of the Wild Bill departure.

To a certain extent I agree. Having said that the fans aren't expected to scout and develop players, we can only react to what is happening on the ice. Yes, we screwed up with Karlsson. How bad will be determined by how he performs the rest of his career. Make no mistake there will be a lot of fans that will want Karlsson to either succeed or fail because it aligns with their agenda.

Most people will say Karlsson was the logical choice. Some will say it was the only way to get rid of that Clarkson contract. I said at the time that if the CBJ wanted to keep him, they would have found a way. The FO made the choice, so be it.

I think differently than most people and if I had been the GM I would have found a way to keep Karlsson. There are a lot of things I would do differently, most go against conventional wisdom. No idea how it would work out in the long run.

Torts was an easy guy for me to like in the beginning. As time goes on, I'm coming to realize that I don't think he's a very good fit for us. It's one thing to lose because you are inferior, it's another to beat yourself. Torts makes things harder than it needs to be and he gets in his own way.

 

[Maylo]

Well, you could have said that the first time, then, I guess?

Were you offended by that picture usage? I'm sorry then.

 

[Monk]

Were you offended by that picture usage? I'm sorry then.

I just thought it was rather lazy and in poor taste, plus I thought you might have some real reasons you should share. No hard feelings, carry on.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

It's not just us, other Ohio teams other than the Cavs are notorious for coming up short in the postseason. There's the Indians, who have lost multiple potential series-clinching games since 1999 to the point where they lost most of those series. Lest we forget the Browns' shortcomings during the 80s.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Nothing makes me buy into an argument faster than the revisionist retelling of the Wild Bill departure.

It's not revisionism. It's an analysis of the obvious failings of this coaching staff-and that of the General Manager and his staff. That no one apparently saw his talent level is nothing shy of a disgrace.

They had Karlsson for 2 full years and completely missed his talent level. Yeah, I called him a plug. But I wasn't running practices and seeing what he could do there.

The blind and continual defense of the CBJ organization on this huge miss is mind numbing.

 

[Monk]

It's not revisionism. It's an analysis of the obvious failings of this coaching staff-and that of the General Manager and his staff. That no one apparently saw his talent level is nothing shy of a disgrace.

They had Karlsson for 2 full years and completely missed his talent level. Yeah, I called him a plug. But I wasn't running practices and seeing what he could do there.

The blind and continual defense of the CBJ organization on this huge miss is mind numbing.

I disagree. The blind and continual practice of bringing up something that, quite literally, not a single person following/coaching/reporting on hockey predicted, is mind numbing.

Also, let's see if Ol' Bill does it again next year. Where do we land on this if he scores 45 points?

 

[Nordique]

I disagree. The blind and continual practice of bringing up something that, quite literally, not a single person following/coaching/reporting on hockey predicted, is mind numbing.

Also, let's see if Ol' Bill does it again next year. Where do we land on this if he scores 45 points?

Yes, I agree, there was no outrage when Bill was moved via the draft. Hindsight is 20/20, and I don't see any merit in criticisms of the organization over letting Bill "get away". I have no idea if he'll be a legit, perennial star in the league, or if this is a flash in the pan season for him. Regardless, he showed nothing in the ample opportunities he had in Columbus to indicate he could put up these numbers.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

I disagree. The blind and continual practice of bringing up something that, quite literally, not a single person following/coaching/reporting on hockey predicted, is mind numbing.

Also, let's see if Ol' Bill does it again next year. Where do we land on this if he scores 45 points?

If he scores 45 points, then he's still a very useful player. That would rank 5th on this season's CBJ.

Jarrod Skalde, who coached Karlsson in Norfolk (AHL) said this:

“If we were sitting here right now and he had 15 goals and 40 assists, that wouldn’t be as surprising to me. He distributes the puck very well, makes people around him better,” says Jarrod Skalde, who coached Karlsson and Steckel in Norfolk, Anaheim’s AHL affiliate. “I would never predict he’d be in the mid-30s (in goals) in March with the potential to score 40 at the National Hockey League level.”
Skalde’s take is typical of those who have crossed paths with Karlsson over the years. Coaches and teammates insist he has always had offensive upside waiting to be unlocked. This season-long outburst is the extreme version of what they had envisioned, and the goal-to-assist ratio is backwards.

The legend of Wild Bill: William Karlsson is hockey’s most unlikely success story

Kevin Fiala said this:

Kevin Fiala, the Nashville Predators forward from Switzerland, gawked at Karlsson for one season in the Swedish Hockey League. Karlsson, then 20, led their HV71 club in scoring thanks to his ability to facilitate. “He was a playmaker before, played in every situation, blocked a lot of shots on the PK and was on the power play too,” Fiala recalls. “Right now he’s just on fire. He can do it all, an all-situations player.”

It's pretty clear that the CBJ misevaluated him and underutilized him. That said, his current production wasn't predictable, but that he was going to be more than a 4th liner and PKer was.

 

[Monk]

If he scores 45 points, then he's still a very useful player. That would rank 5th on this season's CBJ.

Jarrod Skalde, who coached Karlsson in Norfolk (AHL) said this:



The legend of Wild Bill: William Karlsson is hockey’s most unlikely success story

Kevin Fiala said this:



It's pretty clear that the CBJ misevaluated him and underutilized him. That said, his current production wasn't predictable, but that he was going to be more than a 4th liner and PKer was.

Mmmkay. So if they thought he was gonna get 45 points, they should have kept him over Anderson?

I still just don't get it. Agree to disagree I guess.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Mmmkay. So if they thought he was gonna get 45 points, they should have kept him over Anderson?

I still just don't get it. Agree to disagree I guess.

Skalde said 55 points. Which could be 60 give or take.

Jenner is the one who should have been exposed. He wouldn't have even been taken. With the exception of James Neal, the Vegas forwards are fast. Jenner wouldn't have fit the profile of player being taken.

Jarmo was desperate to clean up the Horton/Clarkson fiasco. I don't think that this part of the equation should be understated.

Agree to disagree. Carry on or karaoke.

 

[KJ Dangler]

Yes, I agree, there was no outrage when Bill was moved via the draft. Hindsight is 20/20, and I don't see any merit in criticisms of the organization over letting Bill "get away". I have no idea if he'll be a legit, perennial star in the league, or if this is a flash in the pan season for him. Regardless, he showed nothing in the ample opportunities he had in Columbus to indicate he could put up these numbers.

Playing 13 minutes per night in a checking role, was ample opportunity ? I think not, and it seems to be a common theme that Calvert was just complaining about, Letestu, the same, and I can gurantee that Bjork, and Sonny would have similar thoughts. People that try to chalk it up as a flash in the pan, havent watch Karlsson play much , since he went to Vegas. He didnt instantly become that fast, the minute he was traded, nor did he instantly acquire those hands. He was given an opportunity to play his game, and the coach had confidence in him. He didnt ask him to be something hes not.

You didnt notice Bjorkstrands play fall off a cliff, after Torts called him out in the media, asking him to check more ? Do you think from that point when Bjork got on the ice, he was playing loose, as Torts always tells the media he wants, or do you think hes worried about not making the right defensive play, and thinking out on the ice, instead of playing. As a coach , you can have an overall structure in place, but to get the most from a team, you dont force players to be something they arent. This is why Torts is a terrible coach for this franchise. I dont see why its so hard to see .

 

[Monk]

Skalde said 55 points. Which could be 60 give or take.

Jenner is the one who should have been exposed. He wouldn't have even been taken. With the exception of James Neal, the Vegas forwards are fast. Jenner wouldn't have fit the profile of player being taken.

You're not wrong, it would have been really nice if that's what happened.

Where I think you and others are wrong is that it was anything but a crapshoot who should be protected, let alone that Bill was the one who should have been.

You're not going to convince me, I'm not going to convince you.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

People that try to chalk it up as a flash in the pan, havent watch Karlsson play much , since he went to Vegas. He didnt instantly become that fast, the minute he was traded, nor did he instantly acquire those hands. He was given an opportunity to play his game, and the coach had confidence in him. He didnt ask him to be something hes not.
As a coach , you can have an overall structure in place, but to get the most from a team, you dont force players to be something they arent.

A++++++ on the bolded.

I think Torts makes an overly quick assessment on what a player's skill level is and then tries to force that perception of that player into the role that he plays within his system.

He's not a fluid in his evaluation of talent. His evaluation appears to be set in stone once he makes it which is not a very sound approach with young players.

Playing an obviously finished Dubinsky for all 6 playoff games says it all. Milano may not have done squat, but that was an unknown. Dubinksy's pathetic "performance" was completely predictable.

Would anyone choose Tortorella over Gallant to guide the CBJ in 2018-19 if given the choice?

 

[Nordique]

Playing 13 minutes per night in a checking role, was ample opportunity ? I think not, and it seems to be a common theme that Calvert was just complaining about, Letestu, the same, and I can gurantee that Bjork, and Sonny would have similar thoughts. People that try to chalk it up as a flash in the pan, havent watch Karlsson play much , since he went to Vegas. He didnt instantly become that fast, the minute he was traded, nor did he instantly acquire those hands. He was given an opportunity to play his game, and the coach had confidence in him. He didnt ask him to be something hes not.

You didnt notice Bjorkstrands play fall off a cliff, after Torts called him out in the media, asking him to check more ? Do you think from that point when Bjork got on the ice, he was playing loose, as Torts always tells the media he wants, or do you think hes worried about not making the right defensive play, and thinking out on the ice, instead of playing. As a coach , you can have an overall structure in place, but to get the most from a team, you dont force players to be something they arent. This is why Torts is a terrible coach for this franchise. I dont see why its so hard to see .

13 minutes a night, Yes that is ample opportunity to show what you have. A top 6 forward gets about 16 - 18 minutes a night (Luc averaged 16, Wennberg 18).

If he needed more ice time, then those centers ahead of him would have gotten less. Did anyone call for that back in 16/17?

Here is maybe the question I have regarding Bill.

Would anyone here trade Luc straight up today, to have Bill back?

 

[Cyclones Rock]

13 minutes a night, Yes that is ample opportunity to show what you have. A top 6 forward gets about 16 - 18 minutes a night (Luc averaged 16, Wennberg 18).

If he needed more ice time, then those centers ahead of him would have gotten less. Did anyone call for that back in 16/17?

Here is maybe the question I have regarding Bill.

Would anyone here trade Luc straight up today, to have Bill back?

I think the better question is "would anyone not trade Anderson or Jenner straight up to have Bill back?"

 

[Nordique]

And knowing the luck of the CBJ, we'd trade one of those guys and watch them score 40 goals next season. While Bill sustains a leg injury.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

I think the better question is "would anyone not trade Anderson or Jenner straight up to have Bill back?"

This is a hard question to answer. Obviously looking at Karlsson's stats this year you obviously pick him. But like others have mentioned, would he have been that guy here? I doubt it. I am a big fan of Anderson and Jenner, so maybe I am biased. But that expansion draft was going to sting one way or the other, and it obviously looks really bad for us now, but there are some positives too.

A. We got rid of Clarkson's deal.

B. We keep two very good physical wingers. Anderson especially.

C. PLD maybe doesn't get his opportunity if Karlsson is here.

It sucks to lose out on Karlsson. And we look dumb. But like the Carter-Voracek trade there can be positives too. Without that deal we don't get JJ+Dano, JJ being the start of the turn around for the CBJ locker room, and Dano being an important piece to get Saad and then Panarin here. If Anderson can become a 25 goal scorer, Jenner can return to form and get around 20 goals and 40 points, then I think we made out OK.

 

[We Want Ten]

I need to see another year or two from Wild Bill before I make a decision. I understood why the decision was made at the time, it just looks really bad right now due to several factors. Some of which may or may not be sustainable.

I liked him as a Jacket and hope he continues to play well. Not to support any position I have, but just because I liked the guy.