The Jarmo Thread

[JacketsDavid]

I don't think you can fire your way to success. If you have a better person for the job, then sure. I don't think we've got that candidate. It seems a little unfair to Jarmo that we're blaming him for the club going out in the first round the last two years, when we've been immediately pitted against the eventual cup winner. The team has more regular season wins than all but a few teams in that span, it's much more likely they could have won a series by now if they weren't in the top division (it looks much easier this year).

We've certainly fired enough coaches to know we can't do that, but hasn't stopped the team from firing a HC every 3 seasons or so. That's a good indication to me how successful the team is.
I doubt if we have predecessors to JD or Jarmo on our staff. That's the thing, they guys developed are usually like their bosses. And I don't really think we are looking for hockey lifers. Now if you have the right person (regardless if they played in the league or have worked in the league) that's great.

Seems like the tough competition thing follows us around. When we were in the West we dealt with the same thing. Maybe it has to do with playing against the CBJ makes other teams look better (especially better teams who outside of a couple games we haven't played that well against).

Leads me back to ownership. Maybe they need to know what they really want. Mr Mc brought IDWT here and gave him too much power. Howson had a lot of fixing up to do but couldn't get us beyond average. So they went to JD who has made the team consistently better overall (more consistent, but still hasn't advanced any where), but we'll soon see how much of that was a result of having a Vezina level goalie to make up for the lack of depth on offense.

 

[majormajor]

Seems like the tough competition thing follows us around. When we were in the West we dealt with the same thing. Maybe it has to do with playing against the CBJ makes other teams look better (especially better teams who outside of a couple games we haven't played that well against).

I personally find it easier to believe that the Jackets playing 3 of their 4 series against the eventual Cup Champions is a misfortune, bad luck, than that it is caused by the Jackets incompetence. It would be hard to structure your incompetence to end up with that situation on purpose. I know that contradicts the ineffable taint (fail-centric) theory of the universe but I can't get the math to work otherwise.

** I'm using the eventual cup champions bit for dramatic reasons, but the same thing applies to just the overall strength of the divisions. The Central was objectively the strongest. Then it was the Metro that was objectively the strongest. If the Jackets were worse it would have made those divisions less strong, not stronger.

 

[JacketsDavid]

I personally find it easier to believe that the Jackets playing 3 of their 4 series against the eventual Cup Champions is a misfortune, bad luck, than that it is caused by the Jackets incompetence. It would be hard to structure your incompetence to end up with that situation on purpose. I know that contradicts the ineffable taint (fail-centric) theory of the universe but I can't get the math to work otherwise.

** I'm using the eventual cup champions bit for dramatic reasons, but the same thing applies to just the overall strength of the divisions. The Central was objectively the strongest. Then it was the Metro that was objectively the strongest. If the Jackets were worse it would have made those divisions less strong, not stronger.

Well if you limp in every year (especially as one of the wild card spots) likelihood is you're going to play a pretty good team in first round.
Definetely right about eventual cup champions but if the best you can do is 3rd spot in division or Wild Card you're going to be on the road against a team better than you.

 

[majormajor]

Well if you limp in every year (especially as one of the wild card spots) likelihood is you're going to play a pretty good team in first round.
Definetely right about eventual cup champions but if the best you can do is 3rd spot in division or Wild Card you're going to be on the road against a team better than you.

They were 3rd in the division two years ago with 106 pts. That's a division strength issue.

 

[CBJx614]

They were 3rd in the division two years ago with 106 pts. That's a division strength issue.

Third in the division and third overall in the east. 4th overall in the entire league, only behind Chicago.

Without Panarin.



Since 2008 the Metro and Central have combined for 8/11 cups.


It's not like years past where the Jackets are easy W's for the rest of the division

 

[Fairwhether]

Every season is a different team. The current team builds on the strengths and weaknesses of the previous team plus the changes over the summer. I see three questions:
1. Did Jarmo make the right choices for this years team? We'll know in a few weeks.
2. Did Jarmo make and will he make this summer the right choices for next years team. We should pretty much know by December.
3. Has Jarmo significantly weakened the future teams beyond next season? After the draft we'll have a feel for this but we won't really know for a couple of years.

I can't see any result this season being enough to fire him. Unless he absolutely fails at the trade, signings, and draft I doubt we have a definite answer to question 3. So, ask me again in December.

 

[blahblah]

I don't think you can fire your way to success.

In most cases not, but Washington might disagree. There are other examples as well.

 

[JacketsDavid]

Every season is a different team. The current team builds on the strengths and weaknesses of the previous team plus the changes over the summer. I see three questions:
1. Did Jarmo make the right choices for this years team? We'll know in a few weeks.
2. Did Jarmo make and will he make this summer the right choices for next years team. We should pretty much know by December.
3. Has Jarmo significantly weakened the future teams beyond next season? After the draft we'll have a feel for this but we won't really know for a couple of years.

I can't see any result this season being enough to fire him. Unless he absolutely fails at the trade, signings, and draft I doubt we have a definite answer to question 3. So, ask me again in December.

-Did Jarmo not understand that the weakness of this team was a top 6 C? Maybe we're all a mensa club on this board and we can see things that a NHL GM doesn't see. But the weakness was there.
-Jarmo made the choice to ride with Bob and Bread and go all in at the deadline. We won't need to wait until December to know if that worked. We will know by early July (playoff results and ability to sign/retain UFA).
-He traded valuable "bricks" (member the whole brick by brick thingy he said he was doing. Yeah he traded a lot of bricks. Now if we advance in the playoffs then it could be worth it, but if we gave up a lot of bricks for nothing.

It's very simple to me. He gambled on having the right team to make some noise this season. If he was being conservative he could have traded Bread and Bob last offseason. He could have also not risked so much the deadline, but he went all in.
Personally I was fine with keeping Bread and Bob. I wasn't in favor of going all in. Maybe if we knew Duchene and Dzingel wanted to stay. But we won't have to wait until December or next year. Our playoff performance plus ability to retain the UFA will be all I need to know.

 

[Monk]

-Did Jarmo not understand that the weakness of this team was a top 6 C? Maybe we're all a mensa club on this board and we can see things that a NHL GM doesn't see. But the weakness was there.
-Jarmo made the choice to ride with Bob and Bread and go all in at the deadline. We won't need to wait until December to know if that worked. We will know by early July (playoff results and ability to sign/retain UFA).
-He traded valuable "bricks" (member the whole brick by brick thingy he said he was doing. Yeah he traded a lot of bricks. Now if we advance in the playoffs then it could be worth it, but if we gave up a lot of bricks for nothing.

It's very simple to me. He gambled on having the right team to make some noise this season. If he was being conservative he could have traded Bread and Bob last offseason. He could have also not risked so much the deadline, but he went all in.
Personally I was fine with keeping Bread and Bob. I wasn't in favor of going all in. Maybe if we knew Duchene and Dzingel wanted to stay. But we won't have to wait until December or next year. Our playoff performance plus ability to retain the UFA will be all I need to know.

Even if they get knocked out in the first round, I am VERY pleased with the overall decision to go for it. Hell, even if they miss the playoffs I'm fine with it.

 

[majormajor]

In most cases not, but Washington might disagree. There are other examples as well.

I'm not sure I see the Washington example.

 

[EspenK]

Even if they get knocked out in the first round, I am VERY pleased with the overall decision to go for it. Hell, even if they miss the playoffs I'm fine with it.

Deep down I wanted B&B to be traded as the course of action but going for it with D&D once the decision was made not to trade the others was a bold move that I like. I'm not sure why Torts couldn't just put D&D with OB and let it ride. Seems like that was the logical thing. But then again it is Tort and it is the Jackets so...

 

[blahblah]

I'm not sure I see the Washington example.

Caps fire coach Oates, won't bring back GM

... and bring in Trotz....

 

[majormajor]

Caps fire coach Oates, won't bring back GM

... and bring in Trotz....

Ah I see. McPhee still gets credit for bringing in the entire core of the Caps roster, excepting Niskanen. Most of Mclelland's moves have been rotating waiver fodder like Smith-Pelley.

As far as their coaching change goes, bringing in Trotz was huge for their franchise but it was also an "upgrade", which I think we're certainly all in favor of. My original point was that firing without upgrading doesn't lead to success.

 

[blahblah]

Ah I see. McPhee still gets credit for bringing in the entire core of the Caps roster, excepting Niskanen. Most of Mclelland's moves have been rotating waiver fodder like Smith-Pelley.

As far as their coaching change goes, bringing in Trotz was huge for their franchise but it was also an "upgrade", which I think we're certainly all in favor of. My original point was that firing without upgrading doesn't lead to success.

So the roster really didn't change much in Washington.... And a HC change got them over the hump.... So they fired without upgrading, but it didn't lead it success? Alrighty then...

yes, you can fire the head coach without making roster changes and end up with a (much) better team.

 

[majormajor]

So the roster really didn't change much in Washington.... And a HC change got them over the hump.... So they fired without upgrading, but it didn't lead it success? Alrighty then...

yes, you can fire the head coach without making roster changes and end up with a (much) better team.

I totally agree. My point was firing (the coach) without upgrading (the coach) doesn't lead to success. They upgraded their coach.

Although after the last game I think the Jackets roster, which is loaded for bear, might have better success playing with mr. potato head lodged behind the bench.

 

[blahblah]

I totally agree. My point was firing (the coach) without upgrading (the coach) doesn't lead to success. They upgraded their coach.

Ummm... You said you can't fire your way to success. I'm now completely lost. Now you are saying you can. You have a moving target. The whole point of firing someone is to get someone you believe would be better.

 

[AZRoadRunner]

In most cases not, but Washington might disagree. There are other examples as well.

Keep in mind that Trotz coached the Caps to the Cup during his 4th season with Washington. It was not immediate. It was a gradual climb - although the Caps enjoyed regular season success during each of Trotz's four seasons. One of the primary keys to the Caps' success has been GM Brian MacLellan. As opposed to MacPhee, BMac focused his roster moves on defense. During the Ovi era, the Caps were always an offensive juggernaut. BMac brought in Niskanen and Orpik which greatly helped stabilize the back-end. The addition of Kempny last year didn't grab headlines, but it was a smart move that further upgraded the D. Holtby re-emerged from the Oates debacle as a top-end goalie. Assistant coach Reirden (now HC) devised some clever trapping defenses that completely stymied the Bolts and VGK last year. Trotz was an important part of the Cup run, but so were a lot of other guys in the Caps organization.

 

[Maylo]

Keep in mind that Trotz coached the Caps to the Cup during his 4th season with Washington.

How curious, this is Torts 4th season and look how far we have gone!

 

[AZRoadRunner]

How curious, this is Torts 4th season and look how far we have gone!

And your point is what exactly?

 

[Maylo]

And your point is what exactly?

Torts sucks?

 

[JacketsDavid]

Keep in mind that Trotz coached the Caps to the Cup during his 4th season with Washington. It was not immediate. It was a gradual climb - although the Caps enjoyed regular season success during each of Trotz's four seasons. One of the primary keys to the Caps' success has been GM Brian MacLellan. As opposed to MacPhee, BMac focused his roster moves on defense. During the Ovi era, the Caps were always an offensive juggernaut. BMac brought in Niskanen and Orpik which greatly helped stabilize the back-end. The addition of Kempny last year didn't grab headlines, but it was a smart move that further upgraded the D. Holtby re-emerged from the Oates debacle as a top-end goalie. Assistant coach Reirden (now HC) devised some clever trapping defenses that completely stymied the Bolts and VGK last year. Trotz was an important part of the Cup run, but so were a lot of other guys in the Caps organization.

Great point the GM and coach were on same page with building the team. Seems pretty simple/basic but doesn't look like Jarmo and Torts were necessarily on same page with the offensive talent added (and what Torts was suppose to do with it).

 

[blahblah]

Keep in mind that Trotz coached the Caps to the Cup during his 4th season with Washington. It was not immediate. It was a gradual climb - although the Caps enjoyed regular season success during each of Trotz's four seasons.

Sure Tortz had little to nothing to do with it. They went from missing the playoffs to 1st in the division. Then after losing to the Pens twice in the 2nd round they beat them and won the Cup.

I'm not sure why it's so hard to say "Sure, Trotz made a difference.". Instead it's "Man it took him FOUR seasons to do it.".

 

[Ice9]

Jarmo gets the time to either make all this work or work himself out of it. I find it hard to believe this was reckless and not well thought out with no contingencies.

 

[Forepar]

Jarmo gets the time to either make all this work or work himself out of it. I find it hard to believe this was reckless and not well thought out with no contingencies.

Hope there was a contingency plan.

But the reality is that the success or failure of the TDL moves on THIS season really don't have much of an impact on JK's future. If they miss, it won't be because JK sat on his hands. He went for it, it cost him some draft picks and a few prospects, not his top 5. Worth the risk, his job was not on the line either way.

The big longer-term issue is what does this team look like on the ice by Thanksgiving 2019? They don't have to be in first, they don't have to be in a spot but they have to be in contention. More importantly, what does the team look like? Who did he pick up in FA, or via trade this summer? Which prospect(s) did JK have in waiting behind Door #3 that are blossoming? Which draft pick(s) did he pickup/steal? Who is the HC? If it looks downright dreadful on all those fronts, then he's got a problem brewing. Until then, I believe he is on safe ground.

 

[majormajor]

Ummm... You said you can't fire your way to success. I'm now completely lost. Now you are saying you can. You have a moving target. The whole point of firing someone is to get someone you believe would be better.

It's not a moving target, you just didn't understand me. Some people think you fire people just to get rid of them, as if the cleanse of firing them will fix the situation itself. "You don't fire your way to success" means you actually need an upgrade to have success. I believe I said it in response to someone wanting to fire Jarmo - I don't think the same principle applies in the short run to firing coaches.