The Coyotes situation and how it relates to the Panthers

[Brokin]

Think gambling isn't a big money maker in Broward? The Hard Rock took in $528M without blackjack or roulette. That's more than all the other 8 paramututal's combined in South Florida. I don't believe that figure even takes into consideration the revenue from the ancillary Hotel, Shops, and Restaurants. Altogether, the Seminole Nation had revenue of over $2.1B in fiscal year 2013-14 with their 7 casino's in Florida and paid the State of Florida around $259M.

Any wonder why Viola and Cifu want to get the State to approve a destination Casino/Hotel/Retail for Broward County. This is the big prize and why you are likely seeing the CC take the necessary steps to satisfy all those naysayers with the consultants doubling their original take to see what the ramifications of such a move would do for the coffers of Broward County. It's also another step in the process of Panther Ownership to reach the true gold ring on their original purchase. You can bet the consulting will be done in time (12/31/15) to be put to a vote by the CC and then sent up to Tallahassee for a final vote early 2016 by the Governor and State Legislature.

The arena and hockey is just the store front to the gold mine awaiting Viola/Cifu if this gets the green light. Piggyback this on top of a franchise that is on the upswing and the Panthers themselves could see an eventual doubling or tripleing in valuation.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/20...e-classic-seminole-casino-coconut-creek-tribe

 

[ucanthanzalthetruth]

The casino is a pipe dream, that idea has been bandied about for ages

OK gotcha. I wasn't aware they could negotiate a new deal

That's what will probably happen. I mean the County could get the results back and show there is no reason under any circumstances to give them money so then their status in Florida is definitely up in question, but likely it'll just show that they should get less and they'll meet in the middle (hopefully).

 

[Brokin]

The casino is a pipe dream, that idea has been bandied about for ages



That's what will probably happen. I mean the County could get the results back and show there is no reason under any circumstances to give them money so then their status in Florida is definitely up in question, but likely it'll just show that they should get less and they'll meet in the middle (hopefully).

Did you see who is paying for the consultants? It isn't the taxpayers: The total estimated value of this contract is $255,000. To date, the Arena Operating Company has reimbursed the County approximately $143,000 for the cost of this contract.

I think the results will tilt in favor of the AOC.

 

[jol]

That's what will probably happen. I mean the County could get the results back and show there is no reason under any circumstances to give them money so then their status in Florida is definitely up in question, but likely it'll just show that they should get less and they'll meet in the middle (hopefully).

Why would county give them anything extra? What's the team's leverage, them paying off their part of lease and leave?

JOL

 

[ucanthanzalthetruth]

Why would county give them anything extra? What's the team's leverage, them paying off their part of lease and leave?

JOL

I wouldn't be surprised if they are a little worse off without them so they're willing to kick in a little, but them not giving anything is a definite possibility. Even if that happens, which it very well may, the next question becomes has ownership given any signs that they will leave immediately if this ruling goes against them? And the answer is no. Cifu and Viola definitely want the team here imo, and i think they will give this market evry chance to prove it can sustain an NHL team.

I can't find the tweet but before this season started GR said there was a 25% possibility that they would leave after 2017. I agree with that. My hope is that this team makes the playoffs a couple times, so money or no money maybe attendance gets up to 13-14k so it's not so bad.


The next couple years are so important both off/on the ice.

 

[Erased]

I wouldn't be surprised if they are a little worse off without them so they're willing to kick in a little, but them not giving anything is a definite possibility. Even if that happens, which it very well may, the next question becomes has ownership given any signs that they will leave immediately if this ruling goes against them? And the answer is no. Cifu and Viola definitely want the team here imo, and i think they will give this market evry chance to prove it can sustain an NHL team.

I can't find the tweet but before this season started GR said there was a 25% possibility that they would leave after 2017. I agree with that. My hope is that this team makes the playoffs a couple times, so money or no money maybe attendance gets up to 13-14k so it's not so bad.


The next couple years are so important both off/on the ice.

I agree with this completely. I doubt Viola and Cifu would move the team in the county says no, but for good or bad they will be the last owners of the Florida Panthers. This is it gentlemen, either Tallon's rebuild pays off or the team is gone. The market just wouldn't survive another rebuild.

 

[wildcat48]

The fans is Portland are saying good riddance and are welcoming the Panthers with open arms..... Coyotes ran on a shoestring budget and when they did spend money they sabotage the Pirates season with recall after recall.

 

[SufferingCatFan]

The issue with Broward County is not toss out, but buy out. If the Panthers offered enough money, then the County would have to seriously consider agreeing to a buy out of the lease.

Assume for a minute that there is a hockey crazy city with a new (empty) arena costing $400 million say Quebec. Assume further that the city is prepared to provide say $100 million to Panthers to buyout the remainder of its lease. Does Broward County take it?

Just asking....

 

[Erased]

The issue with Broward County is not toss out, but buy out. If the Panthers offered enough money, then the County would have to seriously consider agreeing to a buy out of the lease.

Assume for a minute that there is a hockey crazy city with a new (empty) arena costing $400 million say Quebec. Assume further that the city is prepared to provide say $100 million to Panthers to buyout the remainder of its lease. Does Broward County take it?

Just asking....

Iirc they still owe $250 million. So they would have to offer at least that. At that point you are looking at around $600 million for the team and buyout. It would cost less to buy an expansion team.

 

[SufferingCatFan]

Iirc they still owe $250 million. So they would have to offer at least that. At that point you are looking at around $600 million for the team and buyout. It would cost less to buy an expansion team.

Actually, I do not believe that is the way it works. My recollection is that the majority of the payments relate to profitability of the Panthers and its corporate parent, which includes both the Panthers (net losses) and the concerts (net gains). I have not looked it up recently but I seem to recall that the County usually gets paid something in the $4-8 million range annually.

Let us assume that the revenue averages $8 million per year for the 12 years or so year remaining on the Lease and round it up to say $100 million, then reduce that number to present value, which should come in at around $80 million depending on your assumptions.

If the new owners get say Quebec to pay the buy out price, then they move to Quebec, it would instantly double the value of the franchise from around $250 to $450 million.

 

[ucanthanzalthetruth]

@sufferingcatsfan this was your post on the business board:

it does not take a crystal ball to figure out that the Panthers, an eastern conference team, will likely soon be the Nordiques playing in your new arena probably after the 2015-16 season. First, as you suggest, hard to believe that Quebec spent $400 million to build a new arena without some assurance from the NHL. Second, new owners came in last season without any ties to Florida. Third, new ownership promptly began seeking concessions from Broward County, the owner of the arena, which includes a de facto early termination right. Fourth, the owner raised ticket prices and implemented policies that cut attendance in half. Fifth, the Panthers recently relocated their AHL franchise to Maine, which seems a bit odd for a Florida team. Sixth, a franchise in Quebec is worth about twice what a franchise in Florida is worth so the economic cost of terminating the lease in Florida makes sense, especially since Quebec would likely agree to be responsible for payment.

As a long time STH, it will suck to see the Panthers leave Florida, especially since the team is ending its rebuild and has a bright future.

Your first point about the new arena isn't relevant to me, the NHL wants no teams to move, and I guarantee you that the NHL did not promise them a relocated team. Your second point about no ties to Florida, I mean both owners have bought homes in the Florida area, so...third, they went to the County because it makes sense to, obviously you want losses subsidized, as for "a de facto early termination right", I have heard none of this mentioned anywhere, I would love a source for this. Fourth, what ownership did was fantastic for business, you saw what papering the building did, they still lost a crapton of money and there was no incentive to become a sther, with the new policy you keep the few sthers you have left. I could have sworn that they lowered prices for some packages, but I know for sure they kept prices the same for this upcoming year, so...Point 5 is irrelevant, San Antonio was not a good spot travel wise and Portland became available. Six leads me back to point 1 I made.


You don't have to be optimistic about the future, but right now you seem like you're at a 10/10 on the worry scale, you can take it down to about a 3.

 

[Brokin]

Actually, I do not believe that is the way it works. My recollection is that the majority of the payments relate to profitability of the Panthers and its corporate parent, which includes both the Panthers (net losses) and the concerts (net gains). I have not looked it up recently but I seem to recall that the County usually gets paid something in the $4-8 million range annually.

Let us assume that the revenue averages $8 million per year for the 12 years or so year remaining on the Lease and round it up to say $100 million, then reduce that number to present value, which should come in at around $80 million depending on your assumptions.

If the new owners get say Quebec to pay the buy out price, then they move to Quebec, it would instantly double the value of the franchise from around $250 to $450 million.

First of all, Viola/Cifu supposedly made a suggestion that they should be able to buy out the lease for $78M in lieu of the $250M++ owed based on present/future projected losses. Whether that is viable or not would probably be decided by what the consultants have to say in their report. Don't forget the consultants are being paid for by Viola/Cifu even though the County Commissionsers requested it to originally determine the impact on the bottom line of allowing the tenant to buy out the lease and leave Broward County.

Second of all, Quebec already has prospective owners in place for the franchise.....French Canadian Owners. Viola/Cifu would have to sell to them in order for the franchise to end up in Quebec + get approval from the Board of Governors.

Viola/Cifu are playing nice with the County Commissioners as of right now because of the possibility of building a destination Casino/Hotel/Retail. That matter should be clarified by early 2016. If the County Commissioners give the green light to the State of Florida that they want to proceed, then the 2016 legislative session and Governor will be brought in to vote and determine whether that happens. If Broward County strikes out with the State because of the Seminole lobbying power, then Viola/Cifu will be very disappointed and my guess is they again will be lobbying the fact they cannot survive without adjustments to the current lease. Just how the Cats are doing will also go a long ways in determining how much the county is willing to meet Viola/Cifu demands. If the Casino thing has legs, it is my guess that both sides will be very happy and any adjustments to the lease will reflect the impact of future money to made by the destination Casino.

 

[Brokin]

@sufferingcatsfan this was your post on the business board:



Your second point about no ties to Florida, I mean both owners have bought homes in the Florida area,

Wasn't aware that Viola had bought down here. Last I heard his townhouse in NYC had been lowered to $98M but hadn't sold. I had heard he rents down here and uses that when he and the family are in town, but Cifu is the guy who is actually down here most of the time as he owns a place up by PGA Blvd in WPB. Last I checked at the appraisers office in Broward and Palm Beach County there was no record of Vincent Viola ownership. I'll have to admit that was sometime ago, so maybe you know more than I do.

 

[ShootIt]

Wasn't aware that Viola had bought down here. Last I heard his townhouse in NYC had been lowered to $98M but hadn't sold. I had heard he rents down here and uses that when he and the family are in town, but Cifu is the guy who is actually down here most of the time as he owns a place up by PGA Blvd in WPB. Last I checked at the appraisers office in Broward and Palm Beach County there was no record of Vincent Viola ownership. I'll have to admit that was sometime ago, so maybe you know more than I do.

Maybe he bought it under a corporation name or trust?

Admiral's cove has quite a few of those.

 

[ucanthanzalthetruth]

Ok so maybe he rents lol point is he does live here part of the time, and Cifu and Viola are close, they will make all decisions together. This isn't ASG.

The Panthers future is uncertain but there is still lots of hope, to say this is their last season is just silly at this point.

 

[Brokin]

Maybe he bought it under a corporation name or trust?

Admiral's cove has quite a few of those.

That's possible, but don't forget that Viola spends most of his time running his cash machine Virtu Financial in NYC. I think CIFU oversees the Cats and Viola and he are best buds. Viola trusts his judgement, but when it comes time for a final decision you can bet that Viola (who owns the majority of the Cats) will have the final say.

 

[ucanthanzalthetruth]

That's possible, but don't forget that Viola spends most of his time running his cash machine Virtu Financial in NYC. I think CIFU oversees the Cats and Viola and he are best buds. Viola trusts his judgement, but when it comes time for a final decision you can bet that Viola (who owns the majority of the Cats) will have the final say.

Which won't matter because Cifu would agree with anything Viola says. but again talking about final decisions is so premature, everyone needs to relax and let this all play out.

 

[SufferingCatFan]

@sufferingcatsfan this was your post on the business board:



Your first point about the new arena isn't relevant to me, the NHL wants no teams to move, and I guarantee you that the NHL did not promise them a relocated team. Your second point about no ties to Florida, I mean both owners have bought homes in the Florida area, so...third, they went to the County because it makes sense to, obviously you want losses subsidized, as for "a de facto early termination right", I have heard none of this mentioned anywhere, I would love a source for this. Fourth, what ownership did was fantastic for business, you saw what papering the building did, they still lost a crapton of money and there was no incentive to become a sther, with the new policy you keep the few sthers you have left. I could have sworn that they lowered prices for some packages, but I know for sure they kept prices the same for this upcoming year, so...Point 5 is irrelevant, San Antonio was not a good spot travel wise and Portland became available. Six leads me back to point 1 I made.


You don't have to be optimistic about the future, but right now you seem like you're at a 10/10 on the worry scale, you can take it down to about a 3.

This year there is zero chance IMO. Next year, it is about a 5, if attendance does not increase substantially and/or Broward County does not substantially meet the Panthers demands. Year after, it is about an 8, if neither occurs IMO.

 

[flapanthersfan]

it does not take a crystal ball to figure out that the Panthers, an eastern conference team, will likely soon be the Nordiques playing in your new arena probably after the 2015-16 season. First, as you suggest, hard to believe that Quebec spent $400 million to build a new arena without some assurance from the NHL. Second, new owners came in last season without any ties to Florida. Third, new ownership promptly began seeking concessions from Broward County, the owner of the arena, which includes a de facto early termination right. Fourth, the owner raised ticket prices and implemented policies that cut attendance in half. Fifth, the Panthers recently relocated their AHL franchise to Maine, which seems a bit odd for a Florida team. Sixth, a franchise in Quebec is worth about twice what a franchise in Florida is worth so the economic cost of terminating the lease in Florida makes sense, especially since Quebec would likely agree to be responsible for payment.

As a long time STH, it will suck to see the Panthers leave Florida, especially since the team is ending its rebuild and has a bright future.

1) - completely untrue, as quebec has been promised nothing publicly, you're assuming they were behind closed doors, and it's likely a stupid assumption. cities have built arenas without being promised anything before (kansas city, for example), and a hockey desperate city like quebec likely did the same.

2) they came without any ties, but have planted several. as was mentioned, they bought homes and started a new business (eastern airlines) that is based in, guess where? miami international airport, and offering one flight as of right now to....havana, cuba! hmmm....can't get much more "South florida" than that can it?

3) the prior ownership, or more accurately, Michael Yormark, started the process of asking for those concessions. The new ownership simply continued what he started. Again, you're implying that they came in town looking for handouts, likely to sour the relationship with the city and build an excuse to leave, and you're blatantly wrong about it.

4) they did not raise ticket prices, they lowered them. where in the world are you getting your information from.

5) considering how paranoid you are about everything, i probably can't dissuade your dilusions from our fanchise relocating it's AHL affilicate to the northeast. but the more likely explenation is that having an eastern conference AHL affiliate cuts the operating finances to about half (more buses, less airfare). but what is common sense when we have outlandish conspiracy theories?

6) again, completely wrong. a franchise in quebec would be more valuable than a struggling franchise in florida, but a successful franchise in florida would be worth double of what a successful franchise in quebec is, which is what the ulitimate goal is for the NHL. your logic on this front is short sighted. yes, this year, a team in quebec would bring more revenue to the NHL than a team in florida does. but the growth potential in quebec is, literally, zero. wheras the growth potential in florida is almost infinite.

so in conclusion, your fear-mongoring mindset is wrong in pretty much every single regard. simmer down and take some xanax.

 

[ucanthanzalthetruth]

This year there is zero chance IMO. Next year, it is about a 5, if attendance does not increase substantially and/or Broward County does not substantially meet the Panthers demands. Year after, it is about an 8, if neither occurs IMO.

How do you live if you're worrying so much about 3 years from now? That can't be healthy.

 

[Brokin]

Which won't matter because Cifu would agree with anything Viola says. but again talking about final decisions is so premature, everyone needs to relax and let this all play out.

I'm relaxed. I'm like melted butter running down Jennifer Lawrence's back.

You are right that speculating the team is leaving at this point in time is silly. Things will be much clearer at this time next year.

 

[Brokin]

2) they came without any ties, but have planted several. as was mentioned, they bought homes and started a new business (eastern airlines) that is based in, guess where? miami international airport, and offering one flight as of right now to....havana, cuba! hmmm....can't get much more "South florida" than that can it?

I think Richard Branson once said: "If you want to become a millionaire, start with a Billion dollars and invest in a new airline."

Not a big investment innitially: $5M plus $5M line of credit. That has changed since they ordered 10 737-800 plus 10 options and 20 MRJ90's. Have to pony up the money for those firm orders plus all the overhead that goes along with it.

If the Destination Casino thing happens, you can be bet this airline will be right in the thick of flying charters in to gamble and stay at the hotel.

 

[South Florida Canuck]

How do you live if you're worrying so much about 3 years from now? That can't be healthy.

Yeah, I don't think the situation is that dire either. Everything I read about this team seems to indicate that they're trending upwards. There was a little bit of concern at the beginning of the season because the arena hadn't been maintained (empty vending machines, crab grass, the infamous Paul Laus jersey incident) and because of the low turnout on opening night. It turned out we were all freaking out over nothing. The arena issues were because the ownership was making a change going to an in-house maintenance crew, and the low attendance was due to the market being reconfigured with the freebies coming to a screeching halt. A lot of people on that BOH subforum are complete morons who A) aren't Panthers fans, so they don't follow the team and follow the sport enough to know that this franchise has been subjugated to 20 years of pure crap B) don't live here to follow up on the local politics of the situation, and C) think every sunbelt team that has some issues needs to be relocated to Canada/Northern US. If these idiots were running the league, we probably wouldn't have teams in LA, Nashville or Tampa because those were three sunbelt franchises who all had issues at one time. They were able to work through their issues and are now models for sunbelt success.

There's no way Gary Bettman wouldn't give the Panthers the same opportunity. The reason I made this thread was because I was wondering if this Coyotes situation would give the County Commission any leverage in the negotiations. If Gary Bettman is willing to move heaven and earth to keep the Coyotes in Arizona, I have to imagine there is no way in hell he allows us to move. Our issues are far less severe than theirs are. The league likes having a team here, it's a destination city full of beautiful beaches, great weather, and low taxes. Where do you think people would rather be, freaking Quebec or sunny South Florida? As for Quebec getting a team, a lot of those business board nincompoops seem to think that it's all but done that a team is going to land there. That everything is in place... everything but one important detail.... there's no ownership there! The NHL is not, and I repeat NOT going to allow Pierre Karl Paladeau (a Quebec separatist) to own a team. Do you honestly think the league, Gary Bettman or the BOG want to get involved in that political hornets nest? Hell to the no! Which is why those people posting on that subforum can call their team the Quebec Dreamers, because what they're doing if they think a team is going to land there without an owner.

 

[Brokin]

The NHL is not, and I repeat NOT going to allow Pierre Karl Paladeau (a Quebec separatist) to own a team. Do you honestly think the league, Gary Bettman or the BOG want to get involved in that political hornets nest? Hell to the no! Which is why those people posting on that subforum can call their team the Quebec Dreamers, because what they're doing if they think a team is going to land there without an owner.

So if Quebec becomes a separate country in the next 10 years, is the NHL going throw Montreal out of the league? I don't buy that reasoning at all.

Quebecor will be the eventual owner of the new franchise if they are granted one. While the Paladeau family owns most of the company, they have elected Brian Mulroney as the Chairman of the Board to be the buffer of common sense in business dealings. While Pierre is still on the board, he is more involved with politics and the family knows that if they are to ever get an NHL franchise in Quebec City they will need to keep Pierre far away from those dealings. Bettman and Mulroney I heard get on real well, and he is the frontman in dealings with the NHL. It may take 4 or 5 years, but I think eventually they will get a new franchise. Afterall, $$$ talks and the NHL owners would like nothing better than to line their pockets with new franchise fees.

 

[South Florida Canuck]

So if Quebec becomes a separate country in the next 10 years, is the NHL going throw Montreal out of the league? I don't buy that reasoning at all.

What does this have to do with anything? The Canadiens aren't owned by someone who heads a separatist political party, which is one of the main roadblocks preventing Paladeau from owning a team. The NHL BOG are a good 'ol boys club and they have the final say on who they want in their inner circle or not (ie Jim Balsallie)

Quebeco will be the eventual owner of the new franchise if they are granted one. While the Paladeau family owns most of the company, they have elected Brian Mulroney as the Chairman of the Board to be the buffer of common sense in business dealings. While Pierre is still on the board, he is more involved with politics and the family knows that if they are to ever get an NHL franchise in Quebec City they will need to keep Pierre far away from those dealings. Bettman and Mulroney I heard get on real well, and he is the frontman in dealings with the NHL. It may take 4 or 5 years, but I think eventually they will get a new franchise. Afterall, $$$ talks and the NHL owners would like nothing better than to line their pockets with new franchise fees.

No, they won't. It doesn't matter how many people he has to be "buffers" The NHL ain't gonna want to deal with that guy, period. Plus, the league could have allowed him into the fold when the Panthers were for sale, instead Bettman facilitated the sale to Viola.