The Coyotes situation and how it relates to the Panthers

South Florida Canuck

Biggest Canucks Superfan in South Florida
Jun 8, 2006
704
19
Jupiter, FL
I was too, but I can't see how the team will win this argument, and if the lease is voided they're done.

I read this on another forum:

Quoting someone I know who has been following the Coyotes ownership saga closely...

QUOTE: "Neither side can afford to cancel the deal. I think that in the end, there will be a new deal made. And it will be made to look like a win/win for both sides."

Mark my words. That is what will likely happen.
 

ucanthanzalthetruth

#CatsAreCooked
Jul 13, 2013
27,320
29,376
I read this on another forum:

Quoting someone I know who has been following the Coyotes ownership saga closely...

QUOTE: "Neither side can afford to cancel the deal. I think that in the end, there will be a new deal made. And it will be made to look like a win/win for both sides."

Mark my words. That is what will likely happen.

They can't afford to pay them the 15 million and the Coyotes need almost all of the 15 million to exist, so he's wrong. They're done in Glendale. Trust me on this.
 

Major4Boarding

Unfamiliar Moderator
Jan 30, 2009
5,384
2,358
South of Heaven
M4B thanks for sharing your insight as always.

Curious as to you opinion why the city of Glendale intelligently decided to kick the coyotes out? Wouldn't this mean a loss of millions of dollars of revenue annually?

Thank you, PH1.

One thing that should be dispelled is that this "nuke", for lack of a better word, that Glendale executed was to rid themselves of the franchise. Not saying you PH1, its just seemingly the main thing thats being said elsewhere. Its really a negotiation tactic. To really bring the Coyotes owners to the table and discuss a renegotiation, if you will.

I don't ever get the sense that Glendale wants them gone outright. That said, they may have triggered a series of events that perhaps snowballs this to the point it just may happen. In other words, their initial intent wasn't to kick them to the curb but if this whole saga goes every length of the rabbit hole and they prevail? Perhaps unwanted consequence is the phrase I'd use to describe it.

To your second part. There's plenty of data out there that, initially and on the surface, the City is better off without them than with. The City budgets $6M a year to be funneled to the Coyotes. The remaining $9M budgeted "carries" the Arena Management Fee the Coyotes (as the Arena Manager) "need" to manage the Arena. There's no sugar coating it. It's a massive subsidy.

Glendale does receive revenues back in the form of capped parking revenues, ticket surcharges, rent, naming rights, etc. But with the team's woes, attendance (although on the up as of late), and the fact they (owners) are so heavily leveraged (borrowed money everywhere) its just can't foreseeably be a situation where both sides benefit. Not to mention the City is also on the hook for the Arena Debt service which adds quite a few millions on top of it all AND paying almost 95% of the freight for their Spring Training Facility. They get relief, if you want to call it that, from the City of Phoenix and the teams that share the Spring Training Facility but its so small, its almost a "why bother" thing.

I can go on and on and on with RFP's on separate Arena Managers that significantly reduced Glendale's costs, better revenue sharing models, performance clauses and the like... and truth be told the RFP's and "Life Without" studies are about the only real things that even enter the scene in comparison between Broward and the Panthers and Glendale. You all are awaiting the outcome. Glendale's already done theirs. Generally speaking and casting a wide net on the comparison. Its all Doom and Gloom. And its laughable, honestly. Overinflated, meh... better stop here and not get carried away with it. :laugh:

So to answer your question (long way to get there - I know and I apologize) on the surface Glendale would "save" around 35%-40% on what they lose if the team left. The other loser in this would be Westgate, the entertainment sector adjacent to the Arena. I don't buy all the doom and gloom that it would be boarded up if they left, and Westgate would lose some money. But overall, the amounts lost if the left is less than if it stays status quo. Hence the renegotiation.

One last thing before I wrap up this long-winded segment. You all Southeast of me should take solace in, in the comparison between you all and the Coyotes, are facts that A) Broward is involved versus just a single city. A small one, relatively compared. B) The State of Florida and its $2.5M it submits to Broward for BB&T in tax benefits versus a very miniscule amount provided to Glendale from Arizona. C) Broward can foot the bill with relative ease (not saying if the Panthers left, just saying that Broward generates a tremendous amount of monies annually versus Glendale).

And anything I say (PH1, Hanzal - you guys know this) that may seem derogative towards the Panthers and the Coyotes don't take it as I'm against them. I'm hard but I am fair. I'm not a fan of lopsided Private/Public partnerships and have always maintained that owners need to make it a go on their own steam and if assistance is needed, it must be mutually beneficial to both parties. A true partnership.
 

Major4Boarding

Unfamiliar Moderator
Jan 30, 2009
5,384
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South of Heaven
I think it's more likely they shack up with the Suns in PHX on an emergency basis and work toward the new arena in PHX.

I agree that this is 90% definitely their only option in staying in the area. I posted before that the timeline's involved don't work in their favor however. That's the biggest obstacle.

The way-down-the-road obstacle is how viable can the Coyotes be though playing in US Airways/Talking Stick Arena. And the future Arena the Suns will assuredly get. I'm pouring over the Lease there now and not to intentionally bring the BoH Forum here (in fact I haven't posted this there yet), but here's some items on the current lease that make me unsure, scratch my head on how it would work, and sometimes "Whoooooa!"

Financing Information
The City of Phoenix contributed $35 million with $28 million going to construct the arena and $7 million for the land. The Phoenix Suns contributed $55 million. The city has a 30-year commitment from the Suns to repay a portion of the contribution at $500,000 per year, with an annual 3% increase. The city will also receive 40% of revenue from luxury boxes and advertising.

Just this item only - That leaves 60% to share between the Coyotes and the Suns should they cohabit the current Arena. I would wager the split wouldn't be 30/30. Who knows what the split will be later in the new one though. Hopefully better. Somewhat related (suites aside) but let's not forget either the whole reason why the Coyotes left that Arena in the first place. That overhang that obstructs about 4K fans from seeing from the blue line in on the defensive end (periods 1 and 3). Only about what, 13K or so would have clear sightlines throughout the game? Providing its a sellout?

Tickets
The Suns receive all the ticket revenue

Parking
The Suns receive no revenue from parking. All proceeds go to the Operator.

Concessions
The Suns receive 15% of all soft concessions revenue from the Operator on the fifteenth (15th) day of every month after home games were played. The Suns retain 90% of hard concessions revenue

My initial thoughts? And one that seems shared by a few others? The only way that a neat and clean move back to PHX and into the future Arena is for Suns owner Sarver to buy the Coyotes (either before the end of the 5 year out clause in Glendale or if the Lease ends up terminated now) and the Coyotes are the loss leader... similar to the Panthers are perceived there with BB&T.
 

ucanthanzalthetruth

#CatsAreCooked
Jul 13, 2013
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@m4b What is your prediction for what happens with the Coyotes? I see them as gone after this year, for the reasons you stated I just don't see Phoenix working, and as you already noted Glendale just doesn't work, and it looks too late to move them this year.

And unlike the Panthers where you say you don't know after the next couple years, give me an actual prediction here :D


So there's no way for them for them to work on a new deal to where they can still get the 15 million?

See post #79, it pretty much covers it. Glendale is so screwed, it's just comical what's happened there
 

Major4Boarding

Unfamiliar Moderator
Jan 30, 2009
5,384
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South of Heaven
@m4b What is your prediction for what happens with the Coyotes? I see them as gone after this year, for the reasons you stated I just don't see Phoenix working, and as you already noted Glendale just doesn't work, and it looks too late to move them this year.

And unlike the Panthers where you say you don't know after the next couple years, give me an actual prediction here :D

Geez O' Pete, hanzal! I feel like I'm under a really bright light with water torture forthcoming. :laugh:

My heart tells me there gone after next year.

My head tells me they're leaving Glendale and in the meantime try to swing some sort of deal to move back to downtown PHX. That depends on a non-existent Lease (next year) or in 3 years when the 5 Year Out Clause can be triggered.

I think they do make a serious run at shacking up with the Suns but if that's a no go they leave the Region. So 1 - 3 years.

As far as where? There's intangibles. There's places to go but a great many have other (and bigger) things in the works.

Immediately there's QC. However, can't see the League with that much imbalance regarding Conference Alignment though. Also can't see them staying and playing in the West there in QC. Logistics being the forefront on that.

Next year, Vegas' Arena comes online. I'm one of the few, in fact I think I'm the only one, who still believes that Vegas is not an Expansion City but a Relo one. If I'm wrong, and $450M in Expansion fees is a pretty compelling case to make me wrong, then it would be an Expansion city. There's just something about the whole thing that hasn't yet convinced me its Expansion there. Don't make me bust out the Conspiracy theory hat on that. I put it away awhile ago ;) You know what I mean :sarcasm: Vegas could be a spot.

There's talk it could be Seattle. That to me is 100 times more fathomable that Seattle is an Expansion market, not a Relo. I can't see a team going there as a relocation.

The one that makes the most sense to me is Portland. Paul Allen has always tried to get a NHL team on the cheap but recently gave up the last time uncertainty surrounded the Coyotes 2 years ago. Paul Allen is also on record though, as saying with the right partner, he would not be opposed to not owning but having a second tenant at Moda Center. So there's that.

All that should come with a disclaimer that the NHL has a history of doing really whacky things and only they know truly where there's opportunities :naughty:
 

Acadmus

pastured mod
Jul 22, 2003
16,963
180
Vermont
sort of weird that the Coyotes would hire that person, unless they did it for an excuse to leave?

More likely they weren't aware of the ordinance. It's a pretty common practice in business to hire someone your company has worked with closely negotiating deals because they're known entities and you already have the personal relationships.

But the ordinance exists because it's also a fairly common practice in business to promise someone a job if they give you favorable terms in a deal.
 

jol

Registered User
Jan 31, 2003
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Miami Beach, Florida
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And do you really think they will walk out if they get that money (well it won't be all of it, but anything they do get)? It would be litigation out the butt and every single thing this ownership group has done has pointed to keeping the team here.You have to have a bit of faith Jol.
It would help to be more faithful if county adds something like $200 million lease termination fee if they have a new lease (SSE paying no rent)

B) The State of Florida and its $2.5M it submits to Broward for BB&T in tax benefits versus a very miniscule amount provided to Glendale from Arizona.

Isn't this changing or has changed already, legislation will rank sports venues and money is divided unevenly (also there are more recipients, like Orlando soccer etc)

JOL
 

Major4Boarding

Unfamiliar Moderator
Jan 30, 2009
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South of Heaven
Isn't this changing or has changed already, legislation will rank sports venues and money is divided unevenly (also there are more recipients, like Orlando soccer etc)

JOL

Correct. More money in the pool however. Its a "State your case" scenario as to how much. That said, and using a bar napkin for the math, its stays pretty much the same ($2.5M)... off by maybe $20K in what's allotted already in the Statute.
 

RatKingBolland*

Guest
Not true according to LeBlanc and Bettman. See BOH board.
 

ucanthanzalthetruth

#CatsAreCooked
Jul 13, 2013
27,320
29,376
I already said I shouldn't have posted it so hastily. I was just surprised. I was expecting it later. That said, of course they're going to deny.
 

ursavolta

Registered User
Aug 9, 2010
1,108
160
miami, Fl
I already said I shouldn't have posted it so hastily. I was just surprised. I was expecting it later. That said, of course they're going to deny.

While in a perfect world we would all like the coyotes to stay.. moving to vegas would be the next best option (besides downtown Phoenix)..
i mean it could worse..

all in all i hope the yoted stay put
 

Big Bjugs

Amat Victoria Curam
Jan 9, 2013
3,551
74
Canada Eh
NHL has invested too much into the Coyotes. I think this is do or die for the fans, but I see a big "DO" in Arizona. I can't see the team going anywhere.
 

FlaPnthrsPunk

Registered User
Apr 17, 2006
4,830
7
Coral Springs, FL
I don't believe this is true until facts are stated. If this is completely false, then shame on the NY Post as a usual very reputable source.

If this really is the case in the near future, I'll personally be pretty damn upset for Coyotes fans as we can surely relate to their situation. At least if they moved to Vegas, it would only be about a 4 1/2 hour drive from Phoenix. Much better than if they moved to Quebec or Seattle.
 

XX

Waiting for Ishbia
Dec 10, 2002
54,909
14,598
PHX
Thanks for the kind words in this thread, fellow sunbelt bros.

Coyotes fans have been dealing with this for six years now. If there's one thing you can count on, it's that the league (and Gary Bettman) will do everything possible to keep existing franchises where they are... so long as there is a place for them to play that's realistic.

The Coyotes are in dangerous waters, even though they were one council vote away from being the Jets during the bankruptcy. There are other options locally, like downtown or a tribal sports complex, but nobody knows what the timeline is for those. Beyond expansion, there are some sports magnates out there like Les Alexander and Paul Allen that are waiting in the weeds for a cheap relocated team versus paying full sticker for an expansion team. They pose the biggest threat to our teams.

So far, the BoG's collective expansion greed has kept the Coyotes on life support with financing. I hope the Coyotes can find a way to stay, if not, they'll likely be taking up one potential landing spot for the Panthers, should it ever come to that. It won't be for nothing. Nobody should lose their team. Ever.

You guys don't seem like you have a lot to worry about. I'd only worry about it if the city started being openly hostile towards the team and wanted the arena empty. Didn't work out for Atlanta. Remains to be seen with the Coyotes. But I think you guys are safe, and the team is heading in the right direction.

Good luck.
 

ucanthanzalthetruth

#CatsAreCooked
Jul 13, 2013
27,320
29,376
Make it 2017:

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news...lendale-proposed-coyotes-arena-deal/30578215/

Cliffs: Deal with Glendale that ran till 2028 with out clause in 2018 is gone
-New deal has Glendale paying less for arena management
-New deal is only 2 years, so after 2017 it doesn't look rosy


On the plus side I was worried that 2017 would be the last year of the Cats, no way NHL would move 2 teams in one year. Downside is Coyotes fans get what looks like a lame duck team for 2 years.
 

RatKingBolland*

Guest
Make it 2017:

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news...lendale-proposed-coyotes-arena-deal/30578215/

Cliffs: Deal with Glendale that ran till 2028 with out clause in 2018 is gone
-New deal has Glendale paying less for arena management
-New deal is only 2 years, so after 2017 it doesn't look rosy


On the plus side I was worried that 2017 would be the last year of the Cats, no way NHL would move 2 teams in one year. Downside is Coyotes fans get what looks like a lame duck team for 2 years.

Any specific reasons why you thought 2017 was the Panthers year? Why is it call a "lame duck" year?
 

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