The Chevy & Jets Management Megathread (See mod warning in OP)

[JetsFan815]

Aside from the bolded; that's the kind of stuff you leave in the back lane, by the curb, and hope that someone takes it away. Otherwise you have to call 'Got Junk" and pay to have it hauled away. YUCK!!

Lost...in UFA? Lost is usually reserved for things you'd like back. PASS!!

Every little bit counts. You might look at that list and see junk but I see tons of missed opportunities, I see multiple missed 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th round picks. Those picks matter. If you are a draft and develop team wouldn't you want to maximize opportunities to draft?

 

[Gm0ney]

Aside from the bolded; that's the kind of stuff you leave in the back lane, by the curb, and hope that someone takes it away. Otherwise you have to call 'Got Junk" and pay to have it hauled away. YUCK!!

Lost...in UFA? Lost is usually reserved for things you'd like back. PASS!!

Don't forget that Chevy brought in half the players on that list and of the guys he didn't he tried to re-sign Mason.

Of the players he did bring in, he only actually tried to re-sign Glass, Gustavsson and Frolik.

 

[Say What]

Every little bit counts. You might look at that list and see junk but I see tons of missed opportunities, I see multiple missed 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th round picks. Those picks matter. If you are a draft and develop team wouldn't you want to maximize opportunities to draft?

You're assuming that a GM would actually offer picks for that pile of fecal matter. And you're also assuming that Chevy never tried to 'dupe' them out of said picks.

Apparently there were no takers for the majority of that list. Not unless it was for free (UFA).

 

[Duke749]

I'd have moved Seto for anything. 7th round pick if it could have been had even. Guy was a mess. But there might not have been a market for him.

 

[truck]

Aside from the bolded; that's the kind of stuff you leave in the back lane, by the curb, and hope that someone takes it away. Otherwise you have to call 'Got Junk" and pay to have it hauled away. YUCK!!

Lost...in UFA? Lost is usually reserved for things you'd like back. PASS!!

Any asset is better than no asset.

Jokinen. Was traded for something at the following deadline - and after a steep decline in play. There are almost always deals to be made.

 

[KingBogo]

For anyone who doesn't believe that Chipman is in the majority of major decision loops here is how is bio starts on the Jets website:

Mark Chipman is the Executive Chairman of the Board of True North Sports & Entertainment Limited and Winnipeg Jets Hockey Club. In addition, he serves as the Governor of the Winnipeg Jets on the NHL’s Board of Governors and is Chairman of the Winnipeg Jets True North Foundation.

I'd argue he and Chevy are in close contact on a continual basis and that Chevy is building the team exactly they way they (Chipman and Thomsom) envisioned when they bought the franchise in May of 2011. Chipman is known to be very patient and very loyal. If anyone thinks the slow gradual building of the foundation won't continue with prospects drafted & Developed by TNSE and that the valuing of "heart and sole" type players won't continue you will be very frustrated indeed.

IMO Chevy was hired in the first place because he was able to demonstrate he shared ownership's vision. And consequently I'd put Chevy in the top handful of the most job secure GM's around the league allowing him to carry out that vision.

 

[White Out 403*]

For anyone who doesn't believe that Chipman is in the majority of major decision loops here is how is bio starts on the Jets website:

Mark Chipman is the Executive Chairman of the Board of True North Sports & Entertainment Limited and Winnipeg Jets Hockey Club. In addition, he serves as the Governor of the Winnipeg Jets on the NHL’s Board of Governors and is Chairman of the Winnipeg Jets True North Foundation.

I'd argue he and Chevy are in close contact on a continual basis and that Chevy is building the team exactly they way they (Chipman and Thomsom) envisioned when they bought the franchise in May of 2011. Chipman is known to be very patient and very loyal. If anyone thinks the slow gradual building of the foundation won't continue with prospects drafted & Developed by TNSE and that the valuing of "heart and sole" type players won't continue you will be very frustrated indeed.

IMO Chevy was hired in the first place because he was able to demonstrate he shared ownership's vision. And consequently I'd put Chevy in the top handful of the most job secure GM's around the league allowing him to carry out that vision.

You keep banging the drum of "draft and develop" , but do you think that's all it takes to win in the NHL? Just stop trading players, and draft well? Serious question. Chevy has made serious blunders that others and myself have pointed out... do those just get erased and whitewashed from history because... he's patient? And what is it to be patient anyways? Not making any trades unless you're forced? Isn't that just being indecisive?

 

[Whileee]

You keep banging the drum of "draft and develop" , but do you think that's all it takes to win in the NHL? Just stop trading players, and draft well? Serious question. Chevy has made serious blunders that others and myself have pointed out... do those just get erased and whitewashed from history because... he's patient? And what is it to be patient anyways? Not making any trades unless you're forced? Isn't that just being indecisive?

Signing Pavs to that contract was a blunder. Not giving up good assets to acquire another journeyman goalie (like Scrivens or Bernier or Greiss or any number of others that posters here advocated for) was not a blunder. Instead, picking up Hutch and developing Hellebuyck was the better way to change the goaltending fortunes for a team that wasn't going anywhere without a Price-level goalie. So, we ended up with a couple of extra lottery picks, including Ehlers, instead of maybe squeaking into the playoffs one more year. Big deal. This team needed a rebuild from the bottom up to be a real contender.

Chevy made perhaps the biggest NHL trade in the past 2-3 years last year. Sure, he had to move Kane. But packaging him with Bogo to get that sort of return took some creativity, patience and nerve.

Despite some struggles early on this season, the Jets are still a good team, with a very strong pool of young players and prospects and a ton of cap room. If they were in any other division, they would be a very strong playoff contender and could do some damage in the playoffs.

There are many teams that are on a treadmill to nowhere, despite being active on the trade market.

I think the Jets needed to be more proactive on the draft and develop front (particularly dumping some vets for picks), but I don't see how making trades for the sake of making trades is the way to build a long-term contender. It's a strategy to fill gaps for teams that are on the verge, or for creating salary cap flexibility for top teams, or for acquiring future assets by teams that are in a building mode.

 

[Duke749]

The Jets probably could have been more proactive on all fronts. Easy to say that now though.

 

[Jetfaninflorida]

If they were in any other division, they would be a very strong playoff contender and could do some damage in the playoffs.

I guess you haven't actually looked over at the Eastern Conference lately.

 

[KingBogo]

You keep banging the drum of "draft and develop" , but do you think that's all it takes to win in the NHL? Just stop trading players, and draft well? Serious question. Chevy has made serious blunders that others and myself have pointed out... do those just get erased and whitewashed from history because... he's patient? And what is it to be patient anyways? Not making any trades unless you're forced? Isn't that just being indecisive?

Because I'm looking at the long term big picture. The Jets are a better team with a far more solid foundation then they were in the spring of 2011. No doubt some mistakes have been made along the way. It would be impossible to play out every hand perfectly for a NHL GM. If anything I would have preferred to shed a little more of the depth filler a little quicker and add more pieces to the foundation (more picks). But as a STH I also like going into the building and have a competitive team to cheer for, so I have been fine with keeping feet in both camps as we build the foundation. Though as expected TNSE will lean to the youth they are building up when there is a choice between depth they have not previously committed to. As I said earlier I think TNSE uses a different criteria then a lot of posters when they commit to depth players. Since they are taking the long view the seem to over value "heart and soul" character guys. Thorburn and Stu most noticeably. I think the organization sees real value in having these types of players as role models for the youth. I wish they had less prominent roles, but I'm fine with the overall direction.

 

[MardyBum]

I guess you haven't actually looked over at the Eastern Conference lately.

Guess you havent looked at our record against the central?

Not pretty.

 

[White Out 403*]

Signing Pavs to that contract was a blunder. Not giving up good assets to acquire another journeyman goalie (like Scrivens or Bernier or Greiss or any number of others that posters here advocated for) was not a blunder. Instead, picking up Hutch and developing Hellebuyck was the better way to change the goaltending fortunes for a team that wasn't going anywhere without a Price-level goalie. So, we ended up with a couple of extra lottery picks, including Ehlers, instead of maybe squeaking into the playoffs one more year. Big deal. This team needed a rebuild from the bottom up to be a real contender.

Chevy made perhaps the biggest NHL trade in the past 2-3 years last year. Sure, he had to move Kane. But packaging him with Bogo to get that sort of return took some creativity, patience and nerve.

Despite some struggles early on this season, the Jets are still a good team, with a very strong pool of young players and prospects and a ton of cap room. If they were in any other division, they would be a very strong playoff contender and could do some damage in the playoffs.

There are many teams that are on a treadmill to nowhere, despite being active on the trade market.

I think the Jets needed to be more proactive on the draft and develop front (particularly dumping some vets for picks), but I don't see how making trades for the sake of making trades is the way to build a long-term contender. It's a strategy to fill gaps for teams that are on the verge, or for creating salary cap flexibility for top teams, or for acquiring future assets by teams that are in a building mode.

I think your evaluation of Chevy is very generous. I could suggest the Jets are a team on the treadmill to nowhere, and I would have as much evidence as you to say I'm right. If not more. Pavelec was a blunder... I'm glad we agree on that. But you say that giving up assets to correct that would have been wrong. You then say that we needed a Price level goaltender to get anywhere. So much wrong with this I feel like my head is spinnning.

1) Pavelec was below replacement level goaltending as garret demonstrated with data. You can get better goaltending, then, for no cost. So your first assertion is wrong.

2) You make the incredible claim the only way the Jets were doing anything was with a Price quality goaltender. Just wrong. They were middle of the pack team in every category and just needed a semi competent goaltender to go with that. Who knows what we could have done last year with a real goaltender in the playoffs. We could have had playoffs all 4 years the Jets were back and been building a culture of winning. Maybe even making this team a more attractive place for free agents who knows.

But my real beef with this post is your slight of hand. You say that all was for not, that this team needed a full, real rebuild. Well if that's the case and you were willing to not make the playoffs at all, why wouldn't you want the old Atlanta core jettisoned for more picks? You cant have it both ways. You can't say this team needed a full rebuild but then be ok with them not doing it. If you think the team needed to be blown up, Chevy being stubborn and trying to have his cake and eat it too should be grounds for dismissal. But I get it, you like chevy and think he's an amazing drafter. Just try and see it from a neutral outside perspective.

The Jets probably could have been more proactive on all fronts. Easy to say that now though.

A lot of Jet fans, including myself, have been clamoring for trades for years. I don't view that as hindsight is 20/20, just that some people were right and others were wrong.

 

[Duke749]

But like I said, it's easy to say now.

 

[White Out 403*]

But like I said, it's easy to say now.

I agree. It's easy to say now that others and myself were correct

 

[dratbunnies]

Welp, I half finished a big long message and then pressed back, so I guess we will go with the short version this time

I think Chevy wants to build a sustainable competitor. Not a team that competes for two years then falls apart. I can get behind that concept because we all know that even if you are leaps and bounds the best team in those two years, you still need luck on your side to win it, and it would be so easy for those two years to slip away and then you need to start all over again. To build a sustainable competitor, you need a strong core, then effective depth players on cheap contracts (usually ELC's). You continue to resign your core and when your depth players demand more money, you replace them with your (cheap) prospects who are ready for the show. I feel that that consistent replacement of depth players from within the system is one of the key elements of building a team that stays competitive, and believe that it is the most common reason good teams come back to mediocrity, they run out of prospects in the system and can no longer maintain a team which is above the rest.

Chevy has definitely prepared our cupboards for that. Plus we have a year or two before our best prospects become the core of our team. By the time Ehlers, Schiefele, Trouba and Hellebuyck really take over, we may have an even deeper prospect pipeline. Then we will really start finding depth to support our stars and can really make a concentrated push for the playoffs. Up until this point I feel that any push might make us more competitive that season, but we would've still needed lots of luck to make it worth anything and it would've made a team that would not be able to sustain it's talent. It's a tough line, but I like the way its been walked.

(that being said, damn it Stuart, damn it Pavelec, and I fail to see a reason not to have brought in Stempniak again)

 

[Duke749]

I agree. It's easy to say now that others and myself were correct

Only to an extent!!!

Holden actually had an opinion about the organization being proactive early on. Balance good drafting with good signings and trades to get the most out of the older group and younger guys. Somewhere in between the two extremes.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

I agree. It's easy to say now that others and myself were correct

It's easy to call your position correct, when you define the parameters of what is or isn't correct.

I do not like everything that's been done (Pav, Stu/Thor/et al, I wanted to retain Stempniak), but I do like the overall improvements, and the bigger picture strategy. Micro vs. macro. Given that I agree with many who question the Jets Management, does that also make me correct, or do I have to subscribe to all tenets of "the other side", whatever the heck that means. Is it not possible to straddle the line between a conservative approach and a scorched earth policy? I think most/all of us fall somewhere in between.

 

[White Out 403*]

Welp, I half finished a big long message and then pressed back, so I guess we will go with the short version this time

I think Chevy wants to build a sustainable competitor. Not a team that competes for two years then falls apart. I can get behind that concept because we all know that even if you are leaps and bounds the best team in those two years, you still need luck on your side to win it, and it would be so easy for those two years to slip away and then you need to start all over again. To build a sustainable competitor, you need a strong core, then effective depth players on cheap contracts (usually ELC's). You continue to resign your core and when your depth players demand more money, you replace them with your (cheap) prospects who are ready for the show. I feel that that consistent replacement of depth players from within the system is one of the key elements of building a team that stays competitive, and believe that it is the most common reason good teams come back to mediocrity, they run out of prospects in the system and can no longer maintain a team which is above the rest.

Chevy has definitely prepared our cupboards for that. Plus we have a year or two before our best prospects become the core of our team. By the time Ehlers, Schiefele, Trouba and Hellebuyck really take over, we may have an even deeper prospect pipeline. Then we will really start finding depth to support our stars and can really make a concentrated push for the playoffs. Up until this point I feel that any push might make us more competitive that season, but we would've still needed lots of luck to make it worth anything and it would've made a team that would not be able to sustain it's talent. It's a tough line, but I like the way its been walked.

(that being said, damn it Stuart, damn it Pavelec, and I fail to see a reason not to have brought in Stempniak again)

I definitely don't see an issue with a patient draft and develop mentality. I think for us it's the only way to go. But that doesn't mean that he can make huge mistakes like in our net and on defense and it's ok because we're on a steady course. D+D isn't how the Jets are going to win in the NHL... its smart asset management. Teams like LA and New York can screw up and bury contracts, buy them out, and sign huge deals and spend to the cap. Winnipeg has to be smart with money and who we give term to. Stuart and Pavelec were given term and dough. Frolik, Stempniak and Tlusty were given their walking papers. Stupid. This is without even mentioning Ladd and Buff.

It's easy to call your position correct, when you define the parameters of what is or isn't correct.

I do not like everything that's been done (Pav, Stu/Thor/et al, I wanted to retain Stempniak), but I do like the overall improvements, and the bigger picture strategy. Micro vs. macro. Given that I agree with many who question the Jets Management, does that also make me correct, or do I have to subscribe to all tenets of "the other side", whatever the heck that means. Is it not possible to straddle the line between a conservative approach and a scorched earth policy? I think most/all of us fall somewhere in between.

When I say that "we" were correct I dont mean necessarily blowing it up, just more deals and trades were needed

 

[Hobble]

Time for Chipman and Chevy to show their loyalty and sign Buff and/or Ladd without cheaping out.

 

[Thai jet*]

Get It Done!

Time for Chipman and Chevy to show their loyalty and sign Buff and/or Ladd without cheaping out.

It is not cheaping out when signing them increases their trade value >3x or more. What it is is a too inexperienced front office. Chipman needs to be isolated from hockey operations. They need to bring in an experienced guy as buffer. I see Hiezinger as someone who plays meddler for Chipman.

 

[dratbunnies]

I definitely don't see an issue with a patient draft and develop mentality. I think for us it's the only way to go. But that doesn't mean that he can make huge mistakes like in our net and on defense and it's ok because we're on a steady course. D+D isn't how the Jets are going to win in the NHL... its smart asset management. Teams like LA and New York can screw up and bury contracts, buy them out, and sign huge deals and spend to the cap. Winnipeg has to be smart with money and who we give term to. Stuart and Pavelec were given term and dough. Frolik, Stempniak and Tlusty were given their walking papers. Stupid. This is without even mentioning Ladd and Buff.

Nothing has happened with Ladd and Buff. I think it is a bit over the top to say that they are already a damning mistake on the franchise. By the numbers being tossed around, it would have been more of a mistake to sign them (or at least Ladd) already. Meanwhile do you really want to trade your captain and a fan favourite player the summer after making the franchises first ever playoff appearance? Can you imagine the average fan? "YUSS! finally a team that can really compete! Next year we are gonna go even farther, bring it on Chi- Wait? What? We just traded half our starting lineup? I don't understand? You DON'T want to make the playoffs next year?!"

Sure, we may not get as much back for them this trade deadline, losing some value, but at least on these boards people were running away from Buff even at the draft because he only had a year left on his contract. So even then we were gonna lose value. I also feel that while we may not be "managing our assets" optimally, some people put too little emphasis on what the player actually does for our team. Sure, we may not get quite as much back for Buff now, but from what I've heard and sometimes seen, he has been quite good this year and makes our team significantly better. We wouldn't have made it to OT and won last night were it not for Ladd . As assets, they have brought value to our team just by playing on it. (also, I'm not really a business manage-y kinda guy, so feel free to tell me if I'm doing this wrong I do my best to listen!)

In terms of LA and NYR signing and burying contracts, the salary cap is around so teams can't just throw their weight around in money. In terms of buying out bad contracts, if you were thinking about Pavs two(?) seasons ago, who would have played instead? Would Comrie be stuck in the ECHL still because Pavelec was taking up an AHL spot (This one is an honest question)? When he is healthy again, I do trust management to make a solid call about who to send down. If Hellebuyck is still outstanding, then I have little doubt they will keep him up. If Hutchinson also turns it around and plays great, there is no doubt in my mind they will think long and hard about who to send down and if they do send down Hutchinson, it will not be to save face. It will be because they think Hutchinson is still very inconsistent and that his hot streak might be just a hot streak, and perhaps Pavs (who has better numbers atm) will give us the better chance to win. Not saying I agree with that choice, just saying there is logic there.

Finally, I may be naive, but I don't see Winnipeg having a problem spending to the cap. I believe they are near the floor now so that they have room to pay the raises coming up, and flexibility to optimize this roster when it really counts. Time will tell on that one I guess.

 

[dratbunnies]

It is not cheaping out when signing them increases their trade value >3x or more. What it is is a too inexperienced front office. Chipman needs to be isolated from hockey operations. They need to bring in an experienced guy as buffer. I see Hiezinger as someone who plays meddler for Chipman.

It does not increase their value at all (or at least should not) if they are signed to bad deals.

 

[White Out 403*]

Nothing has happened with Ladd and Buff. I think it is a bit over the top to say that they are already a damning mistake on the franchise. By the numbers being tossed around, it would have been more of a mistake to sign them (or at least Ladd) already. Meanwhile do you really want to trade your captain and a fan favourite player the summer after making the franchises first ever playoff appearance? Can you imagine the average fan? "YUSS! finally a team that can really compete! Next year we are gonna go even farther, bring it on Chi- Wait? What? We just traded half our starting lineup? I don't understand? You DON'T want to make the playoffs next year?!"

This is incredible packaging. You just equated buff and ladd to half our starting line up? OK. Secondly, if Ladd wasn't willing to sign before this season starts his value will be highest in the off season. Not at the trade deadline. By going into the last year with your captain and Buff unsigned, it creates massive question marks. It also raises the risk of not getting anything for them. Bad asset management. Not being able to re-sign these guys is part of chevys job and fair to criticize him.

In terms of LA and NYR signing and burying contracts, the salary cap is around so teams can't just throw their weight around in money. In terms of buying out bad contracts, if you were thinking about Pavs two(?) seasons ago, who would have played instead? Would Comrie be stuck in the ECHL still because Pavelec was taking up an AHL spot (This one is an honest question)? When he is healthy again, I do trust management to make a solid call about who to send down. If Hellebuyck is still outstanding, then I have little doubt they will keep him up. If Hutchinson also turns it around and plays great, there is no doubt in my mind they will think long and hard about who to send down and if they do send down Hutchinson, it will not be to save face. It will be because they think Hutchinson is still very inconsistent and that his hot streak might be just a hot streak, and perhaps Pavs (who has better numbers atm) will give us the better chance to win. Not saying I agree with that choice, just saying there is logic there.

Finally, I may be naive, but I don't see Winnipeg having a problem spending to the cap. I believe they are near the floor now so that they have room to pay the raises coming up, and flexibility to optimize this roster when it really counts. Time will tell on that one I guess.

Pavelec was and is below replacement level goaltending. LIterally almost any option the Jets ran with could have produced better results. So there's that..

You aren't naive. Jets can spend to the cap. but not every season. That means we aren't a cap team.

 

[dratbunnies]

This is incredible packaging. You just equated buff and ladd to half our starting line up? OK. Secondly, if Ladd wasn't willing to sign before this season starts his value will be highest in the off season. Not at the trade deadline. By going into the last year with your captain and Buff unsigned, it creates massive question marks. It also raises the risk of not getting anything for them. Bad asset management. Not being able to re-sign these guys is part of chevys job and fair to criticize him.




Pavelec was and is below replacement level goaltending. LIterally almost any option the Jets ran with could have produced better results. So there's that..

Haha, okay, the starting lineup thing was a bit much but the point still stands that it sends a bizarre message to the fans when we appear on the brink of success and then trade away two of our most effective players.

Honestly, the "it rasises the risk of not getting anything for them" kinda irks me. We will get something for them. We will either sign them or trade them OR they will be an instrumental piece of a playoff run (that third option is not as good for the future, but there is SOME use to it). If none of the above happens, as in we are out of the playoff race, dont trade and dont sign, then I will struggle to support Chevy, that's for sure. But honestly, it's next to inconceivable that we won't find a taker for Ladd or Buff at the deadline. And contracts are often(?) done late in the season. We WILL find something for them. So I find it difficult to get angry with Chevy for not getting anything for them. I agree that we would get a less then optimum return for them at the deadline, and that does make me cringe. But Chevy saw a reason to hold off and take a slightly smaller return. Why? I don't know and you don't know. That reason could make either of us look like a genius or a fool. Maybe he didn't push Ladd hard enough or scour the league for a passable trade thoroughly enough. But maybe teams were not impressed by his play in the playoffs and it was impossible to convince them of his true worth? Maybe he thought they were close to a reasonable contract (and perhaps they still are) and thinks that is the best case scenario? Either way, we may trade them for less than optimum value, but assuming the value is appropriate for the deadline, I feel that although it is a knock on Chevy, it is not a damning failure.

Out of curiosity, it creates massive question marks for who? I've seen this argument and I don't know what it means. Question marks for the players, unsure of the direction the team is heading in? For fans, because we don't know what is happening?

In terms of goaltending, had we picked up somebody from free agency and kept pav, Hutchinson would have less room to make his way to the NHL and try to develop. Then Hellebuyck probably would've had a much harder time finding his way up as he has now, and Comrie would be sitting at the bottom of the ladder crying himself to sleep. The thing was, we really had a full goaltending depth chart, it's just that no one was prepared to be number one. Buying out pavs and bringing in a replacement goalie might have arguably been the best way to go. But it had the downside of taking more capspace and possibly not working out at all either. A small downside to be sure, but every little bit of capspace can help and maybe thats what management valued rather than taking the risk. Honestly, I'm not too sure where I stand on that. But I don't think a replacement level goalie would've taken us to new heights.

You aren't naive.

thanks bud

Jets can spend to the cap. but not every season. That means we aren't a cap team.

That's true, but I think this management is perfectly willing to spend to the cap as soon as they need to/should and I wouldn't want them to spend there at other time. I want every dollar we invest to be invested where it should be, not throwing extra money somewhere because, at the moment, we can. Spending next to the cap because you can gets you in trouble.