The Armchair GM Thread - LXXXII

[biturbo19]

why can't we, i don't know, just not fight that much? there's no rule saying your team has to fight more than 10 times a season

It's such a simple concept, yet apparently so difficult to grasp for so many.

Some numbers to give context to the whole debate:

Last year's fighting major totals for a few noteworthy teams:

Canucks=43.

Big tuff Rawr Kings=27.

The dreaded Blackhawks=16.

Hmmm...

The Stanley Cup finalist Rangers=25.

The Smurfette Edition soft as butter Habitants=41.

The Super Tuff Big Bad Bully Bruins=46, only 3 more fights than us last year...different results.

Things aren't quite adding up right here...

The league leaders in Fighting Majors? Toronto Maple Leafs=48.


So basically, this whole notion of "fight more, win more" and "more fighting means more toughness" is essentially total bullcrap.


I'm not going to argue against the momentum shift of a good, legitimate fight that erupts. Actual "hockey players" dropping the mitts to settle a score or wake a team up. I'm far from some sort of "ban all fights" nancypants anti-fighting advocate. I think it's part of the game, it can be fun, exciting, influential in a game. I love a good fight. But a bunch of Tommy Tostitos square offs is about the least productive thing you can do in terms of actually generating wins. Nobody cares what these neanderthals on skates do anymore...the way the rules are and the way the game is played and policed nowadays, it just doesn't mean much of anything. Two big dumb goons squaring off for a tilt is nothing but a free timeout/chance to rest for the actual real players of the game of hockey. It's not exciting, it's not productive, and it wastes a roster spot that could be more effectively and excitingly used on an actually talented hockey player.

Unfortunately, due to the direction of management here, i have resigned myself to the acceptance of the fact that we're going to continue to carry a "designated puncher" in Tom Sestito, and i guess as far as useless knuckledraggers go, he's far from the absolute worst. At this point i'm just hoping that Willie Desjardins has the good sense not to make Tostitos a regular roster player and generally employs him as the 13th/14th forward with limited games and limited icetime if we have to use the guy.

 

[Scurr]

It's not about winning more or losing more. I never argued that. When Vey plays his first game against Calgary and Brian McGrattan tells him "I'm going to kill you. Really, Your career is going to end today on a stretcher" (he'll say worse) and then Vey see's him do this;



I don't want Sestito in the lineup to help win games… I want him in the lineup to get the other teams goons off the ice when they start running around. People hack on Sestito… but… Sestito >>>> McGrattan and all the other "goons" imo. So we got a guy who can out play those guys and get them off the ice if he has to. That's still a role in this league as long as teams are going to carry those guys.

 

[Canadian Canuck]

We have;

Dorsett
Sestito
Kassian
Sbisa
Bieksa

To drop the gloves if needed.

Also

Matthias and Burrows aren't wimps either.

 

[LeftCoast]

It's not about winning more or losing more. I never argued that. When Vey plays his first game against Calgary and Brian McGrattan tells him "I'm going to kill you. Really, Your career is going to end today on a stretcher" (he'll say worse) and then Vey see's him do this;

Agitating and taunting a goon into doing something stupid has also been a part of the game for a long time. I'm sure Vey has heard worse.

And if it's not about winning or losing - why do it?

 

[dave babych returns]

Also

Matthias and Burrows aren't wimps either.

This discussion is about fisticuffs right?

Matthias basically doesn't fight, and Burrows rarely does it without embarrassing himself.

 

[Barney Gumble]

Big tuff Rawr Kings=27.

When you got guys like Dustin Brown running around looking to clock people on borderline (or even not borderline) hits while refusing to 'drop the gloves'; that's not really surprising stat (and he's hardly like the only Kings player on the team that does that).

 

[DCantheDDad]

We have;

Dorsett
Sestito
Kassian
Sbisa
Bieksa

To drop the gloves if needed.

Also

Matthias and Burrows aren't wimps either.

Zack "Crazy Eyes" Kassian can take care of the BS with guys like McGrattan. We shouldn't waste a roster spot on a security guy.

 

[Barney Gumble]

Zack "Crazy Eyes" Kassian can take care of the BS with guys like McGrattan. We should waste a roster spot on a security guy.

I don't want to Kassian to waste his time (and perhaps risk injury) on a useless sack of ****.

 

[Canucker]

Zack "Crazy Eyes" Kassian can take care of the BS with guys like McGrattan. We should waste a roster spot on a security guy.

I hope you're kidding...Kassian would get killed.

 

[deckercky]

Yeah...Kassian should laugh at the Calgary goons like he did the Edmonton goons after the Gagner incident. Kassian can drop the mits when the game calls for it, but he shouldn't fight just because other teams want to fight.

 

[Cogburn]

We have;

Dorsett
Sestito
Kassian
Sbisa
Bieksa

To drop the gloves if needed.

Also

Matthias and Burrows aren't wimps either.

This and Biturbo's comment about not breaking up a fight if it is part of the game echo my sentiments pretty well. I'd also like to throw Stanton and Hansen (even if he picks his spots) into the mix. If someone does something stupid, make them account able. That being said, I'd rather have a Gordie Howe prototype, or even an Eddie shore, rather then a thousand goons.

I actually don't mind Sestito's play as a 4th liner or spare forward.

Wilch earlier agreed that having a goon isn't a deterrent, especially not if the player stepping out of line isn't a goon. So let's go back to playing hockey, having our guys keep their heads up, and maybe setting a better example then we had been.

If McGratten is this demon we're all thinking he is, having Mike Tyson on skates won't deter his behaviour, and even if he gets a sound butt kicking as a result of his hit on Alberts...he still did more damage then he got.

 

[arsmaster*]

If I was a skill player in the NHL, there are a lot of players I'd **** a brick if I were up against them.

A no-talent goon who would never fight me (and never even play against me) and who only had staged fights against the no-talent goon on my team would not be one of those players.

Goons do nothing. And every statistic possible confirms that.

I don't think sestito is without talent. I also find him entertaining.

If the team is gonna suck I'd rather this 240lbs guy throwing huge checks than thinking 190lbs Dorsett is going to bring all the excitement from a physical standpoint for the whole team.

I know I'm gonna like Dorsett on the team. I just think sestito still has a place is all.

Dorsett isn't rick rypien. He's a gamer in his weight class but should definitely not punch above it. It'll be a long year for him if he's expected to so that.


The way some talk on here they think because he is an solid 4th liner he brings toughness. I couldn't disagree more.

He's gonna help with team speed and bring a combative competitive nature to the 4th line. He can play a regular shift. But don't expect rypien.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

Tom Sestito throws, on average, 2 hits every 3 games. Who cares? Guys like Edler and Hansen hit more than he does.

 

[arsmaster*]

Tom Sestito throws, on average, 2 hits every 3 games. Who cares? Guys like Edler and Hansen hit more than he does.

Living in 2011 I see. Hansen hasn't been a forechecking nightmare for a good while.

 

[BeardyCanuck03]

I don't think sestito is without talent. I also find him entertaining.

If the team is gonna suck I'd rather this 240lbs guy throwing huge checks than thinking 190lbs Dorsett is going to bring all the excitement from a physical standpoint for the whole team.

I know I'm gonna like Dorsett on the team. I just think sestito still has a place is all.

Dorsett isn't rick rypien. He's a gamer in his weight class but should definitely not punch above it. It'll be a long year for him if he's expected to so that.


The way some talk on here they think because he is an solid 4th liner he brings toughness. I couldn't disagree more.

He's gonna help with team speed and bring a combative competitive nature to the 4th line. He can play a regular shift. But don't expect rypien.

I see Dorsett and Sestito swapping in and out of the lineup based on who is the opponent and if they have a legit heavyweight or not.

Dorsett is going to be what AV/Torts wanted Weise to be, 4th line grinder who hits and fights when need be. He'll play when the Canucks play faster teams who don't have a Mcgratton, Scott, etc on the team.

Sestito will play vs the teams who have the goon on the 4th line. He's there to keep those goons in check and play a physical 4th line role. Nothing wrong with having him play that role on this team.

 

[MS]

The notion that we need to 'keep goons in check' makes me want to puke a little bit.

Does nobody actually remember when we won back-to-back President's Trophies without carrying a goon in the lineup? It was only like 2 years ago.

The toughest guys on the best teams in the conference are middleweights like Kyle Clifford, Mike Brown, and Brandon Bollig, and Chicago didn't even keep Bollig.

The only two other teams in our entire conference to carry huge no-talent goons are Calgary and Edmonton (maybe St. Louis if you count Reaves but he's more of a big hitter who fights than a heavyweight). Exactly who we should be aspiring to be like as an organization, right?

 

[topheavyhookjaw]

The notion that we need to 'keep goons in check' makes me want to puke a little bit.

Does nobody actually remember when we won back-to-back President's Trophies without carrying a goon in the lineup? It was only like 2 years ago.

The toughest guys on the best teams in the conference are middleweights like Kyle Clifford, Mike Brown, and Brandon Bollig, and Chicago didn't even keep Bollig.

The only two other teams in our entire conference to carry huge no-talent goons are Calgary and Edmonton (maybe St. Louis if you count Reaves but he's more of a big hitter who fights than a heavyweight). Exactly who we should be aspiring to be like as an organization, right?

Yeah, if this team wants a more physical fourth line, they would be a) better if they still had Weise, b) hope Archibald makes the jump.

 

[arsmaster*]

The notion that we need to 'keep goons in check' makes me want to puke a little bit.

Does nobody actually remember when we won back-to-back President's Trophies without carrying a goon in the lineup? It was only like 2 years ago.

The toughest guys on the best teams in the conference are middleweights like Kyle Clifford, Mike Brown, and Brandon Bollig, and Chicago didn't even keep Bollig.

The only two other teams in our entire conference to carry huge no-talent goons are Calgary and Edmonton (maybe St. Louis if you count Reaves but he's more of a big hitter who fights than a heavyweight). Exactly who we should be aspiring to be like as an organization, right?

San Jose signed John Scott.

Remember that team that carried oreskovich and glass. Remember when they were on the ice watching as our players got manhandled in the finals?

Yeah I remember that too.

Sestito is more skilled than your john scotts and your Bryan mcgrattans and you know it.

 

[Canucker]

San Jose signed John Scott.

Remember that team that carried oreskovich and glass. Remember when they were on the ice watching as our players got manhandled in the finals?

Yeah I remember that too.

Sestito is more skilled than your john scotts and your Bryan mcgrattans and you know it.

That isn't really saying much though...all three of those guys are clowns that don't belong in the league.

Also, our players got manhandled in the finals because they were under the impression that the games would be called according to the rules, they played whistle to whistle...the Bruins didn't and the refs let them...Even if we had Sestito and Dorsett instead of Oreskovich and Glass it wouldn't have changed anything.

 

[MS]

San Jose signed John Scott.

Remember that team that carried oreskovich and glass. Remember when they were on the ice watching as our players got manhandled in the finals?

Yeah I remember that too.

Sestito is more skilled than your john scotts and your Bryan mcgrattans and you know it.

Oooh, John Scott. The same guy who played for our biggest rival in Chicago for a couple years and did absolutely nothing? And was normally a healthy scratch against us because we didn't dress a goon? And will never dress for a playoff game?

All having Sestito in the lineup does is drag Scott into their lineup when he'd normally be in the pressbox.

The guys 'pushing us around' against Boston weren't goons, weren't on the ice against goons, and wouldn't have been held accountable by goons. When was the last time a Brad Marchand fought a Sestito?

I'm a big believer in team toughness and in Kassian/Dorsett/Bieksa/etc. we have plenty of it. More than most teams in the conference. But goons are a waste of space that make your team worse.

 

[Verviticus]

All having Sestito in the lineup does is drag Scott into their lineup when he'd normally be in the pressbox.

im starting to question if maybe dressing a nominal enforcer is a good idea after this lol

 

[DCantheDDad]

I hope you're kidding...Kassian would get killed.

Same way he dealt with Sam Gagner Yes, i was being a bit facetious. We dont have to dress a goon, though. The best way to deal with another teams goon is to let him do his thing. Expose his lack of hockey skills and put pucks in the net. Fighting him solves nothing.

 

[arsmaster*]

Oooh, John Scott. The same guy who played for our biggest rival in Chicago for a couple years and did absolutely nothing? And was normally a healthy scratch against us because we didn't dress a goon? And will never dress for a playoff game?

All having Sestito in the lineup does is drag Scott into their lineup when he'd normally be in the pressbox.

The guys 'pushing us around' against Boston weren't goons, weren't on the ice against goons, and wouldn't have been held accountable by goons. When was the last time a Brad Marchand fought a Sestito?

I'm a big believer in team toughness and in Kassian/Dorsett/Bieksa/etc. we have plenty of it. More than most teams in the conference. But goons are a waste of space that make your team worse.

Who is the etc?

Hansen? Sedin? Matthias? Edler?

That's more chicken **** than toughness.

I know this team ain't close to winning a thing. Give me some form of entertainment. Sestito does that for me.

 

[Snatcher Demko]

The notion that we need to 'keep goons in check' makes me want to puke a little bit.

Does nobody actually remember when we won back-to-back President's Trophies without carrying a goon in the lineup? It was only like 2 years ago.

The toughest guys on the best teams in the conference are middleweights like Kyle Clifford, Mike Brown, and Brandon Bollig, and Chicago didn't even keep Bollig.

The only two other teams in our entire conference to carry huge no-talent goons are Calgary and Edmonton (maybe St. Louis if you count Reaves but he's more of a big hitter who fights than a heavyweight). Exactly who we should be aspiring to be like as an organization, right?

Yeah, and if you don't dress a goon, chances are, neither will your opponent.

And hockey is played.

 

[MS]

Who is the etc?

Hansen? Sedin? Matthias? Edler?

That's more chicken **** than toughness.

Stanton, Sbisa, Burrows.

How many tough players do you think most teams have? Look at the rosters of St. Louis or Chicago or Colorado or whoever. We have more team-tough players than most teams in this conference.

I know this team ain't close to winning a thing. Give me some form of entertainment. Sestito does that for me.

Well, as long as we're clear that your opinion is in no way related to actually playing hockey and winning games. Maybe we can have the backup goalies do a Zamboni Demolition Derby after every game as well?

I love fighting when it's between two good players as a result of something that actually happened on the ice. Fights for no reason between thugs with ECHL skill levels are garbage and not interesting and should be legislated out of the game.