The Armchair GM Thread - LXXXII

[monster_bertuzzi]

Gotta think with the way Boston molded their team Benning will want to keep Sesty. He doesn't have to play every game, he doesn't need a ton of ice - but we need him against these big mean teams.

 

[me2]

Gotta think with the way Boston molded their team Benning will want to keep Sesty. He doesn't have to play every game, he doesn't need a ton of ice - but we need him against these big mean teams.

We also have some decent youth to call up on ELCs so we don't need to carry the extra forwards on the roster, so there is space in 13/14th forward spots for him.

 

[LeftCoast]

Any kind of junior, senior or pro hockey.

There is almost no fighting below the major junior level and you can't really compare senior hockey played by part timers to professional hockey played by professionals. Fighting is also banned in most adult rec leagues, senior leagues, beer leagues and even arenas ban fighting with suspensions or expulsions. And really do the 13 people in the stands really want to see an insurance salesman slugging it out with an electrician? I think it remains in some of the top tier senior leagues - particularly in Quebec, but not much beyond that.

Outside of the CHL, AHL, ECHL and NHL there is very little fighting in hockey. I think the BCHL as well as most of the Junior A leagues have adopted to "one fight rule".

 

[Scurr]

There is almost no fighting below the major junior level and you can't really compare senior hockey played by part timers to professional hockey played by professionals. Fighting is also banned in most adult rec leagues, senior leagues, beer leagues and even arenas ban fighting with suspensions or expulsions. And really do the 13 people in the stands really want to see an insurance salesman slugging it out with an electrician? I think it remains in some of the top tier senior leagues - particularly in Quebec, but not much beyond that.

Outside of the CHL, AHL, ECHL and NHL there is very little fighting in hockey. I think the BCHL as well as most of the Junior A leagues have adopted to "one fight rule".

I know this… what does it have to do with what I asked? I was referring to the threat of a fight and the intimidation that goes along with it. It's very real even in "one fight rule" leagues and doesn't matter if the players are professional or not.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

An upgrade on Sestito would be great. A guy who can play every night and beat the crap out of everyone will make next years season worth while. If we can't make the playoffs, lets beat the crap out of everyone and send them to Calgary to get the crap beaten out of them more. I would love it if the Calgary-Vancouver corridor was the blackest and bluest in the entire league.

take it back to '89

 

[Canucker]

If anyone in this league is intimidated by Tom Sestito, or any other goon, they don't belong in the league. Goons are the ones who need to be intimidated by skilled players of the league.

 

[LeftCoast]

I know this… what does it have to do with what I asked?

You said:

Just curious… how many of you that don't believe in "goons" have played hockey with hitting and fighting in it? It's pretty easy to say you wouldn't be intimidated from behind a computer.

Unless someone has played major junior or minor-pro hockey, they won't have experienced first hand much fighting as all leagues except major junior, minor-pro and the NHL have lengthy suspensions or outright bans for fighting. So unless you are on the major junior - NHL track, of course fighting is going to be intimidating. However for players on the pro-track they will have experienced fighting in major junior, some junior A (the one fight rule is fairly recent), minor-pro and at the NHL level and at that point are not really intimidated by fighting.

Moreover, fighting is not feared or intimidating because no player has to fight. The code and conventions of the game and the linesmen pretty much ensure that non-willing participants don't get pummeled (outside of incidents like Steve Moore).

 

[Scurr]

Unless someone has played major junior or minor-pro hockey, they won't have experienced first hand much fighting as all leagues except major junior, minor-pro and the NHL have lengthy suspensions or outright bans for fighting. So unless you are on the major junior - NHL track, of course fighting is going to be intimidating. However for players on the pro-track they will have experienced fighting in major junior, some junior A (the one fight rule is fairly recent), minor-pro and at the NHL level and at that point are not really intimidated by fighting.

Moreover, fighting is not feared or intimidating because no player has to fight. The code and conventions of the game and the linesmen pretty much ensure that non-willing participants don't get pummeled (outside of incidents like Steve Moore).

My point didn't need much fighting… just the threat of a fight. Junior B, Junior A, Senior A, Senior B, Major Junior, Pro… like I said. I'm guessing the answer is no?

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

 

[LeftCoast]

My point didn't need much fighting… just the threat of a fight. Junior B, Junior A, Senior A, Senior B, Major Junior, Pro… like I said. I'm guessing the answer is no?

No - haven't played at the major junior level. Have you? But it doesn't change the fact that fighting, at every level where it is permitted is entirely voluntary for skilled players. If it's voluntary, there is no reason to be intimidated.

For lesser skilled players who are there for their toughness, it's still voluntary, however there are certain expectations and pressures on them and won't make it far unless they play their role. For goons, fighting is definitely intimidating. Look at the emotional and mental health issues of many of the well known "goons" who off the ice were very nice people. But "goon" on "goon" fights are purely entertainment; they have nothing to do with deterrence.

 

[Scurr]

No - haven't played at the major junior level. Have you? But it doesn't change the fact that fighting, at every level where it is permitted is entirely voluntary for skilled players. If it's voluntary, there is no reason to be intimidated.

You're right. And the big guys beside you at the 7 11... 6'5" 250lbs... with the full sleeve tatoos... wearing the leather vests... probably aren't even going to look at you twice… but how does he make you feel? I think people are really romanticizing what goes on out on the ice and how "tough" they are

 

[Wilch]

You're right. And the big guys beside you at the 7 11... 6'5" 250lbs... with the full sleeve tatoos... wearing the leather vests... probably aren't even going to look at you twice… but how does he make you feel? I think people are really romanticizing what goes on out on the ice and how "tough" they are

Would not feel threatened if there were 4 cops around and was being broadcasted live nation-wide.

Likewise, if the NHL had no referees, linesman and cameras, I would think players are definitely scared of goons.

 

[LeftCoast]

You're right. And the big guys beside you at the 7 11... 6'5" 250lbs... with the full sleeve tatoos... wearing the leather vests... probably aren't even going to look at you twice… but how does he make you feel? I think people are really romanticizing what goes on out on the ice and how "tough" they are

Well for starters, I'm not exactly a runt at 6'1" 190lb nor am I easily intimidated.

Secondly, I'm 50 years old. Once you get out of high school, at some point you realize that the pecking order has changed. No one cares how cool or how tough you are. There are still ****** bags, but the tools of power are money and influence not muscles and intimidation.

Finally, civilization has advanced to a point where in most situations, brain beats brawn. I figure I've got more of the former than the later, so i try not to put myself in situations where the mouth breathers have reason and means to turn that around.

 

[Cogburn]

When I was a younger man, I played an enforcer/intimidation role in both lacrosse and hockey. My presence, or that of my fellow "role players" didn't phase every other players, on my side or the oppositions side. I did my job, fighting, hitting, even throwing a dirty elbow or under the pads cross check, when someone stepped out of line, but every time we played the same team, the same guys did the same kind of crap.

I can remember one team I'd always get the pressure to go out and "do my duty" against, and one player in particular, that was smaller, slower, less skilled, and frankly far dirtier then anyone else he could target. I fought him a few times, hip checked him, kept on top of him with brutal hit after hit, every time we played his team...and he kept doing what he was doing. The same cheap shots, the same slashes after the whistle, the same attempts to intimidate, fight or probably (possibly) injure our finesse players continued.

Sometimes, be it craziness, dedication or knowing there's nothing I or my fellow goons could do beyond what we were doing already. Some guys just legitimately liked the attention, and probably even the pain. Even a pack of goons literally having your number won't deter you if you're dedicated, crazy, perverse or smart enough.

Get Dorsett, Thornton, Sestito, Rypien, Laraque, Brookbank(both), Odjick, Neil, Stevens, Chara, Parros, and which ever prime aged fighters, enforcers and body checkers you want on a team...sometimes the other guy will look them in the eye and not flinch. To paraphrase the Joker, you have nothing to threaten them with.

Bertuzzi did what he did to Moore with Worrell in the line up...just saying.

And that's not even getting into the spur of the moment or accidental stuff, just going on the assumption that all gooning against star players is pre-meditated or at least intentional.

 

[Wilch]

Exactly.

When the NHL came up with several rules to curtail fighting, they essentially took away the right for enforcers to patrol the ice and have any sort of impact on the behaviour of opposing players.

The big bad Bruins certainly didn't stop Matt Cooke from assassinating Savard; and as Cogburn mentioned, Worrell most definitely didn't prevent Bertuzzi from ending Moore's career.

These players present no threat to rats like Marchand, Bolland and Cooke, because they don't need to respond to a challenge. If they forcefully fight them, it's an automatic 2 minute minor at least. All the goons can do today is try to lure dirty ***** like Brown into fighting, only to be declined and given a raspberry.

If it was pre-1970, then definitely carry a few guys like Scott and McGrattan.

 

[John Bender*]

Exactly.

When the NHL came up with several rules to curtail fighting, they essentially took away the right for enforcers to patrol the ice and have any sort of impact on the behaviour of opposing players.

The big bad Bruins certainly didn't stop Matt Cooke from assassinating Savard; and as Cogburn mentioned, Worrell most definitely didn't prevent Bertuzzi from ending Moore's career.

These players present no threat to rats like Marchand, Bolland and Cooke, because they don't need to respond to a challenge. If they forcefully fight them, it's an automatic 2 minute minor at least. All the goons can do today is try to lure dirty ***** like Brown into fighting, only to be declined and given a raspberry.

If it was pre-1970, then definitely carry a few guys like Scott and McGrattan.

This is bang on. The only purpose a goon serves now is to fight other goons. I just wish we had a goon that could once in a while beat up the other goon. Our goon is a poor fighter.

 

[CanucksSayEh]

Players don't generally worry much about their personal safety. At least not the players we're talking about deterring here. You gotta go after others. If Dustin Brown tries to take out Henrik with an elbow, then you two hand Kopitar. If Marchand slew foots Danny, then you board Krejci. When Keith KO'd Danny, everyone wanted him crunched, guys shoulda been trying to roll over Kane.

 

[LeftCoast]

Exactly.

When the NHL came up with several rules to curtail fighting, they essentially took away the right for enforcers to patrol the ice and have any sort of impact on the behaviour of opposing players.

The big bad Bruins certainly didn't stop Matt Cooke from assassinating Savard; and as Cogburn mentioned, Worrell most definitely didn't prevent Bertuzzi from ending Moore's career.

These players present no threat to rats like Marchand, Bolland and Cooke, because they don't need to respond to a challenge. If they forcefully fight them, it's an automatic 2 minute minor at least. All the goons can do today is try to lure dirty ***** like Brown into fighting, only to be declined and given a raspberry.

If it was pre-1970, then definitely carry a few guys like Scott and McGrattan.

Much has been said about the instigator rule, but I'm not sure fighting was ever a deterrent. The basic code of hockey fighting, and the way the linesmen protect non-willing participants has been around for a long, long time.

If you want an effective on-ice deterrent, they you are looking at the Wayne Maki, Eddie Shore, Todd Bertuzzi, Marty McSorley type of actions. But I don't think anyone wants to see the game go in that direction.

 

[LiquidSnake]

Having guys who can throw I believe us necessary but there's no point in carrying a guy like Sestito because it's not like he wins much anyways

 

[MS]

I know this… what does it have to do with what I asked? I was referring to the threat of a fight and the intimidation that goes along with it. It's very real even in "one fight rule" leagues and doesn't matter if the players are professional or not.

If I was a skill player in the NHL, there are a lot of players I'd **** a brick if I were up against them.

A no-talent goon who would never fight me (and never even play against me) and who only had staged fights against the no-talent goon on my team would not be one of those players.

Goons do nothing. And every statistic possible confirms that.

 

[JuniorNelson]

If there is no Sestito, Kassian will be doing all the fighting. Is this better?

 

[The Stig]

If there is no Sestito, Kassian will be doing all the fighting. Is this better?

Why? What happened to Dorsett?

 

[kanucks25]

If there is no Sestito, Kassian will be doing all the fighting. Is this better?

You score a lot and win, you don't have to fight. Look at Chicago.

 

[biturbo19]

Players don't generally worry much about their personal safety. At least not the players we're talking about deterring here. You gotta go after others. If Dustin Brown tries to take out Henrik with an elbow, then you two hand Kopitar. If Marchand slew foots Danny, then you board Krejci. When Keith KO'd Danny, everyone wanted him crunched, guys shoulda been trying to roll over Kane.

Yep. It's an extremely dangerous precedent, but it's where the NHL is headed. Unfortunately.

 

[Fa Ci La]

If there is no Sestito, Kassian will be doing all the fighting. Is this better?

why can't we, i don't know, just not fight that much? there's no rule saying your team has to fight more than 10 times a season