*The All-Purpose Sean Monahan Thread*

[Pirate King Luffy]

Why can't we be friends?

It's Christmas Eve. Enjoy the holidays and stop bickering. Happy Holidays!

 

[Beats By CoRD]

Why can't we be friends?

It's Christmas Eve. Enjoy the holidays and stop bickering. Happy Holidays!

Don't make me whoop yo ass at GM connected again.

There's no hockey till Friday bro, we need **** to talk about!

 

[TheHudlinator]

Nope. I didn't think he'd be in the NHL period, this season. He's not struggling in comparison to my expectations of him, he's struggling in comparison to my expectations of how well an NHLer should be playing. His line is constantly being outshot by other lines in spite of the fact that it gets treated with kid gloves by Hartley. I don't care how smooth and calm he looks on the ice, or how mind-blowingly smart the occasional play is; on an overall basis he's an on-ice liability.

To clarify: Monahan is doing better than I would have expected and I'm quite impressed with him. He just hasn't performed to the level of a top 9 NHL calibre centre to this point. He's put up points (thanks in large part to lady luck) but he's giving up more than he creates, by a wide margin.

O please he has a PDO of 1009 (mean is 1000) so he is slightly lucky but even if it falls back the mean the difference is minimal at best, he has created his luck by driving the net and going to the dirty areas places Sven doesn't go to. Sorry but the only person that I don't think is being objective at this point is you. Sven struggled with consistency since Portland and it still remains. Monahan isn't a legit top 6 player and that is for sure but he is easily and nhl player. If

 

[SmellOfVictory]

Man you're way out to lunch on this one. We all love Baertschi but woah.

So Monahan was lucky to get injured? Monahan was lucky to get his head driven into the boards by Marchand?

Good hockey players are in the right place at the right time. Most of Moneys goals have come because he's standing at the front of the net and pots in a rebound. MANY players have made a career out of that. If Sven is so good, where's his goals? Why isn't he standing in the dirty areas? Oh you mean he's dancing around the perimeter trying to deke out 10 year NHL vets? Good luck pal.

He seriously needs time in the AHL. There's no question about that. And hand picking IMO meaningless advanced stats means **** all bro. All that matter is Monahan is producing right up there with all the other rookies in the NHL. Sven is/was struggling to not be scratched on a rebuilding team. There's no argument here.

Of course, right place at the right time. Jordan Eberle's near PPG season was totally skill, right? That's why he's been PPG sinc-... oh wait, no, he couldn't sustain that. Or how about Alex Steen, who is currently one of the top scorers in the league. He's obviously actually as good as Crosby and Ovechkin, right?

I'm not saying Monahan was lucky injury-wise. I'm talking solely offensively. How about this: in two years, if Monahan still has a 20% personal shooting percentage, I'll give you five bucks. If he doesn't, you owe me five bucks.

And I clearly stated that both players are doing poorly (relative to other NHLers, not to their development). Yes, Baertschi tried way too often to split the D and pull flashy moves that continuously failed. But you're calling him a perimiter player? He was regularly involved in board battles and his puck retrieval led to many of Monahan's points. A perimeter player doesn't draw as many penalties as Baertschi does.

This has nothing to do with some kind of Baertschi fanboyism. I think both of these kids are great prospects. But neither of them is a legitimate NHLer right now in terms of ability.

 

[Pirate King Luffy]

Don't make me whoop yo ass at GM connected again.

There's no hockey till Friday bro, we need **** to talk about!

Yeah I could care less actually lol. I wanted to see if anyone was actually going to stop. I am having a blast reading all three of you go at it.

I will beat you in the next game.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

O please he has a PDO of 1009 (mean is 1000) so he is slightly lucky but even if it falls back the mean the difference is minimal at best, he has created his luck by driving the net and going to the dirty areas places Sven doesn't go to. Sorry but the only person that I don't think is being objective at this point is you. Sven struggled with consistency since Portland and it still remains. Monahan isn't a legit top 6 player and that is for sure but he is easily and nhl player. If

His PDO is that low because Berra is an awful goaltender. Again, I am fully aware that Monahan is doing a lot of good things, and makes some impressive plays. That doesn't mean he's currently a good NHLer though.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

Yeah I could care less actually lol. I wanted to see if anyone was actually going to stop. I am having a blast reading all three of you go at it.

I will beat you in the next game.

I'm pretty sure it's three people slamming their heads against different sides of the same brick wall at this point, but I can't step away from a good Internet argument.

 

[TheHudlinator]

His PDO is that low because Berra is an awful goaltender. Again, I am fully aware that Monahan is doing a lot of good things, and makes some impressive plays. That doesn't mean he's currently a good NHLer though.

Sure it is then that means you think Sven's 990 is also to low and thus Sven hasn't been unlucky at all?

 

[Beats By CoRD]

Of course, right place at the right time. Jordan Eberle's near PPG season was totally skill, right? That's why he's been PPG sinc-... oh wait, no, he couldn't sustain that. Or how about Alex Steen, who is currently one of the top scorers in the league. He's obviously actually as good as Crosby and Ovechkin, right?

I'm not saying Monahan was lucky injury-wise. I'm talking solely offensively. How about this: in two years, if Monahan still has a 20% personal shooting percentage, I'll give you five bucks. If he doesn't, you owe me five bucks.

And I clearly stated that both players are doing poorly (relative to other NHLers, not to their development). Yes, Baertschi tried way too often to split the D and pull flashy moves that continuously failed. But you're calling him a perimiter player? He was regularly involved in board battles and his puck retrieval led to many of Monahan's points. A perimeter player doesn't draw as many penalties as Baertschi does.

This has nothing to do with some kind of Baertschi fanboyism. I think both of these kids are great prospects. But neither of them is a legitimate NHLer right now in terms of ability.

I never said any of those things. In fact, I think Steens contract will be horrific in a year. No way he keeps this up.

But Monahan is a special player. His hockey IQ at this age is just a treat to watch, and it will only get better with age. I actually don't think his production will ever go much lower. In fact, I think he keeps up this 0.5PPG pace for his entire career. That's how much faith I have in this kid. His shooting%? Of course not, impossible. But if you don't think Money belongs in the NHL, then neither does Galiardi, D Jones or even Glencross because he was easily outplayed them all this year.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

Sure it is then that means you think Sven's 990 is also to low and thus Sven hasn't been unlucky at all?

Not sure what you're getting at here. I'm saying (offensively) that Sven has had bad luck and Monahan has had good luck. Unless Monahan is the next Andrew Brunette he's not going to keep converting at 20%, and Baertschi is highly unlikely to continue converting at 7% unless he's basically a bust. In terms of on-ice shooting percentage, Monahan's is also 2-3% higher than Baertschi's (and for context, it's still 1% higher than Crosby's so unless Monahan is the next coming of hockey Jesus, it's way higher than normal right now).

 

[Beats By CoRD]

I swear we could be having the exact same argument that led to Feaster/Weisbrod being fired.

SOV is Feaster/Weisbrod using advanced stats defending Baertschi

Me and Huds are Burke saying no, you're fired.

SmellOfVictory:

 

[TheHudlinator]

Not sure what you're getting at here. I'm saying (offensively) that Sven has had bad luck and Monahan has had good luck. Unless Monahan is the next Andrew Brunette he's not going to keep converting at 20%, and Baertschi is highly unlikely to continue converting at 7% unless he's basically a bust. In terms of on-ice shooting percentage, Monahan's is also 2-3% higher than Baertschi's (and for context, it's still 1% higher than Crosby's so unless Monahan is the next coming of hockey Jesus, it's way higher than normal right now).

Your saying Sven has bad luck and Monahan has good luck but when I point out the statistical equivalent to luck that shows Monahan not being lucky and Sven being only slightly unlucky you say that Monahan's PDO number is driven down and thus looks normal because of poor goaltending so given that poor goaltending has lowered the PDO of the players on the Flames does that not mean that Sven's PDO is to low and thus hasn't been unlucky in a statistical sense? Given the fact that they played together much of their time and that their PDO's are only slightly different doesn't that make it impossible to argue one is lucky and the other is unlucky?

 

[Beats By CoRD]

Not sure what you're getting at here. I'm saying (offensively) that Sven has had bad luck and Monahan has had good luck. Unless Monahan is the next Andrew Brunette he's not going to keep converting at 20%, and Baertschi is highly unlikely to continue converting at 7% unless he's basically a bust. In terms of on-ice shooting percentage, Monahan's is also 2-3% higher than Baertschi's (and for context, it's still 1% higher than Crosby's so unless Monahan is the next coming of hockey Jesus, it's way higher than normal right now).

And sorry bro but you keep using LUCK as your primary argument. He's been lucky for 30 games? Svens been unlucky for 50 games? Come on man. You use advanced stats to back up your argument, but continually fall back on luck.

Good players make their own luck. Monahan is producing not by luck, but by being a smart hockey player.

 

[TheHudlinator]

I swear we could be having the exact same argument that led to Feaster/Weisbrod being fired.

SOV is Feaster/Weisbrod using advanced stats defending Baertschi

Me and Huds are Burke saying no, you're fired.

SmellOfVictory:

We probably are. For me the stats don't matter as much as the way in which Sven has played. For me I know he can be better and hasn't been at his best and because of that I say he should spend some time in the AHL as there are guys like Byron that are vastly out playing him. For Monahan I feel like he is giving 100% every shift and doesn't take any off, so while he may make mistakes they are forgivable to me because I feel like he is doing everything he can.

With that said I still can't imagine Monahan not being classified as a NHL player.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

I never said any of those things. In fact, I think Steens contract will be horrific in a year. No way he keeps this up.

But Monahan is a special player. His hockey IQ at this age is just a treat to watch, and it will only get better with age. I actually don't think his production will ever go much lower. In fact, I think he keeps up this 0.5PPG pace for his entire career. That's how much faith I have in this kid. His shooting%? Of course not, impossible. But if you don't think Money belongs in the NHL, then neither does Galiardi, D Jones or even Glencross because he was easily outplayed them all this year.

I can agree on Glencross to start the season; he was probably the worst player on the Flames outside of Shane O'Brien. Jones is such a boring player I never take the time to watch him, but Galiardi has been an effective checking forward. He's taken a ton of stupid penalties as well, and he makes a decent number of mistakes, but overall he tends to keep things going in the right direction against other bottom 6 players. Monahan is obviously better offensively than all of these guys (except Glencross whenever he decides to play like Glencross again, although Monahan will likely pass him relatively quickly as well) but there are two other zones on the ice, and outside of being in the right place at the right time and showing his fantastic hockey sense (no disagreement there) he has polishing to do before I think he belongs in the NHL. It may be even as soon as later this season, as he looks like the fastest learner I've ever seen, but I'm just saying his start was not better than Baertschi's from an overall perspective. I think Baertschi's issues were just more blatantly obvious, and on top of that he had some bad puck luck on top of it.

I'm going to have to stop this soon, because I can feel the carpal tunnel setting in from the walls of text I've been sending out.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

And sorry bro but you keep using LUCK as your primary argument. He's been lucky for 30 games? Svens been unlucky for 50 games? Come on man. You use advanced stats to back up your argument, but continually fall back on luck.

Good players make their own luck. Monahan is producing not by luck, but by being a smart hockey player.

Sven's only been unlucky to start this season. But yes, Monahan has been lucky to start it.

@Hudlinator: okay, Monahan is an NHLer, but he's not a very good one right now.

PS YOU CAN'T FIRE ME. I QUIT.

 

[Sparky93]

I for one, was pretty happy with both their play this year. Sven numbers, pro rated work out to about 35 points this year in 82 games. I think it's redicuous to expect more than that in a rookie season. I think the biggest reason he got sent down is that he seemed to show up this year with a sense of entitlement that left a bad taste with Hartley and Burke. Seemed like a message that uncle Feaster's gone and know one is guarenteed a spot to me. It's probably the best thing for him, no need to rush any prospects at this point.

 

[Beats By CoRD]

I can agree on Glencross to start the season; he was probably the worst player on the Flames outside of Shane O'Brien. Jones is such a boring player I never take the time to watch him, but Galiardi has been an effective checking forward. He's taken a ton of stupid penalties as well, and he makes a decent number of mistakes, but overall he tends to keep things going in the right direction against other bottom 6 players. Monahan is obviously better offensively than all of these guys (except Glencross whenever he decides to play like Glencross again, although Monahan will likely pass him relatively quickly as well) but there are two other zones on the ice, and outside of being in the right place at the right time and showing his fantastic hockey sense (no disagreement there) he has polishing to do before I think he belongs in the NHL. It may be even as soon as later this season, as he looks like the fastest learner I've ever seen, but I'm just saying his start was not better than Baertschi's from an overall perspective. I think Baertschi's issues were just more blatantly obvious, and on top of that he had some bad puck luck on top of it.

I'm going to have to stop this soon, because I can feel the carpal tunnel setting in from the walls of text I've been sending out.

Well I guess we will have to agree to disagree because I think Monahans defensive game is better than his offensive. He even stopped a goal late in the game last night, wish I had the vid on hand. And that to me is the big difference between Money and Sven, Money is producing and is solid in his own zone. Baertschi is not producing and is soft as butter in own zone. I do think he made great strides in improving that this year especially after Burke called him out, but to me he still looks like a kid out there. Little Sven running around getting pushed around in a mens league. Nobody pushes Monahan around, the guy BELONGS here. And that's bottom line IMO.

 

[Taranis]

Well thats the difference between a small winger and a bigger center right?

 

[Anglesmith]

I am inclined to agree with SmellOfVictory. You can't simply use Baertschi's demotion as evidence of anything because their situations are different. There are a few different things to point to, and SOV has done so so far, only to be met with emoticons and reaction gifs.

It's by no means clear-cut, but SOV has made solid points. There is also the fact that management has egg on their face if they demote Monahan.

 

[Beats By CoRD]

I am inclined to agree with SmellOfVictory. You can't simply use Baertschi's demotion as evidence of anything because their situations are different. There are a few different things to point to, and SOV has done so so far, only to be met with emoticons and reaction gifs.

It's by no means clear-cut, but SOV has made solid points. There is also the fact that management has egg on their face if they demote Monahan.

I guess that could be true, but you guys are now basically claiming you are smarter than Burke and co. Please keep going with that. It's entertaining.

And not once have any one used reaction gifs. Am I on crazy pills here?

Only "points" SOV has made is that Monahan is lucky and Sven is unlucky. Yeah.. solid.

 

[InfinityIggy]

Bottom line, I'm not sure how any reasonable person can watch the games thus far and say Baertschi has only been bad because of bad luck.

 

[Anglesmith]

I guess that could be true, but you guys are now basically claiming you are smarter than Burke and co.

How so? We don't know if he would have demoted Monahan if he was a 20-year-old skilled winger with AHL eligibility. How can anyone make or deny that claim?

 

[Anglesmith]

Bottom line, I'm not sure how any reasonable person can watch the games thus far and say Baertschi has only been bad because of bad luck.

No one is saying that. I'm personally saying that Baertschi has had good games and bad games, and so has Monahan, but they're in different situations which are impossible to compare.

 

[InfinityIggy]

No one is saying that. I'm personally saying that Baertschi has had good games and bad games, and so has Monahan, but they're in different situations which are impossible to compare.

That's exactly what SOV is saying..