Speculation: The all-purpose Claude Noel job security discussion thread

[surixon]

I think its just too soon to go with Hawerchuk. Three years isn't nearly enough IMO. I also can't help but think that this would be setting Dale up for failure this early in his coaching career.

 

[surixon]

Regarding firing the coach, Am I the only one who'd like to see a major trade first, to shake this team to the core and get things going?

Personally, I am not in love with this core, or the lineup in general. Gaining the line and firing 40 ft. wrist shots at the net is not beast mode. Showing up 1/4 of the time is not beast mode.

I know 'major trade' is ambiguous, but so is firing the coach.

I wouldn't be opposed but I'm having a hard time seeing who we could move and get fair value back other than Buff who is playoffs excellent for us this year. With a lower cap and much of the core having NMC's it makes trading for Chevy very difficult. Who specifically did you have in mind moving?

 

[peg]

I think its just too soon to go with Hawerchuk. Three years isn't nearly enough IMO. I also can't help but think that this would be setting Dale up for failure this early in his coaching career.

How much coaching experience is really needed? Ducky has a lifetime's worth of experience as a player and of observing coaches. After 3 years behind the bench I would think that anything above and beyond that may just be more of the same. As far as the behind the bench experience, I can see a passionate and emotional Dale Hawerchuk with his tremendous success as a player gaining the respect and attention of the team. In terms of putting a system in place, honestly, how complicated is it? In terms of getting the players to consistently and effectively play to a system, Ducky certainly can't be any worse than Claude has been.

 

[mondo3]

Noel in today's press conference: "Our goaltending has been superb"

I think he said that because he knows the players read/hear his comments and he doesn't want to demoralize a key player, especially when the issue is not Pav's effort, but his skill level.

 

[Analyst365]

I wouldn't be opposed but I'm having a hard time seeing who we could move and get fair value back other than Buff who is playoffs excellent for us this year. With a lower cap and much of the core having NMC's it makes trading for Chevy very difficult. Who specifically did you have in mind moving?

I wasn't thinking of anyone in particular, rather approaching it from a theoretical standpoint. In the beginning I was all for this idea that we inherited a core from Atlanta, and that we should build around that core and watch it all come to fruition. Unfortunately the evidence to me suggests that, despite being a good idea (and no one is to blame for trying), this idea isn't going to pan out. It happens.

It still might be a good idea, but it might also take 3 more years of coaching changes, support roster tweaks, free agent dice rolls, and ultimately missing the playoffs, before we find out for sure.

I hope I'm wrong and this core does pan out, but I'd rather move a piece or two now. I've seen enough

Of course I do concede that it is far easier to fire the coach, and that a trade could end up being a net loss.

 

[ps241]

I have ignored this thread for a while but dropped back in to take a look and have found the posting to be very good with a nice level of constructive debate. Surge has been on a roll and the topic around Iggy for GM Joe as an example of a trades has all been good back and forth and creative.

well done homies

 

[surixon]

I wasn't thinking of anyone in particular, rather approaching it from a theoretical standpoint. In the beginning I was all for this idea that we inherited a core from Atlanta, and that we should build around that core and watch it all come to fruition. Unfortunately the evidence to me suggests that, despite being a good idea (and no one is to blame for trying), this idea isn't going to pan out. It happens.

It still might be a good idea, but it might also take 3 more years of coaching changes, support roster tweaks, free agent dice rolls, and ultimately missing the playoffs, before we find out for sure.

I hope I'm wrong and this core does pan out, but I'd rather move a piece or two now. I've seen enough

Of course I do concede that it is far easier to fire the coach, and that a trade could end up being a net loss.

I guess I see the core angle a bit differently. I don't see Ladd, Little, Wheeler as the core this team is building with but rather see them as the transition core until The Kane, Bogosian, Scheifele and Trouba core is ready to take control of this team.

Once that happens guys like Little, Ladd and Enstrom will take secondary leadership and playing roles on the team and will act as veteran support to the new core. Of the old transition core I only see Wheeler as playing In a front line role. As for the rest of the current core I'd be looking at moving Buff next summer and buying out Pavelic.

I would actively shop for an upgrade at goalie and would be open to moving next years first and a B prospect for it.

 

[White Out 403*]

Noel in today's press conference: "Our goaltending has been superb"

Look I used to be an unshakable Noel supporter. I'm not some "blame the coach" Noel hater. The biggest thing that has shaken my confindenc in Noel is how he's handled the goaltending situation. This might be the one thing that is Noel's ultimate downfall

He's either clueless or the organization thinks Pavelec has a paper thin ego

 

[theamazingchris]

Alternatively, he's trying to keep the media at arms length. I think the reason that we get so many "hockey cliches" in interviews is tactical, to be frank; there's more stuff going on than we get access too. Still, if he does actually think that, we are in trouble.

 

[Gm0ney]

I have ignored this thread for a while but dropped back in to take a look and have found the posting to be very good with a nice level of constructive debate. Surge has been on a roll and the topic around Iggy for GM Joe as an example of a trades has all been good back and forth and creative.

well done homies

We had too much time on our hands for a couple of weeks in the preseason I think.

 

[Yukon Joe]

How much coaching experience is really needed? Ducky has a lifetime's worth of experience as a player and of observing coaches. After 3 years behind the bench I would think that anything above and beyond that may just be more of the same. As far as the behind the bench experience, I can see a passionate and emotional Dale Hawerchuk with his tremendous success as a player gaining the respect and attention of the team. In terms of putting a system in place, honestly, how complicated is it? In terms of getting the players to consistently and effectively play to a system, Ducky certainly can't be any worse than Claude has been.

No set number on how many years experience you need, but it's probably more than three.

Do you remember the Wayne Gretzky experience in Phoenix? He had a lifetime's worth of experience observing coaches too, but he wound up being a disaster as a head coach.

As for winning over the players with his experience... he was a star in this league before many of these players were even born.

And things can always get worse.

Don't get me wrong, the fan in me loves the idea of Dale Hawerchuk being the Jets head coach. But lets wait to see if he can establish himself as a great junior head coach first. Guys like Brent Sutter, Dale Hunter, Brian Sutter and Patrick Roy (ex-players who went from junior coaches to NHL coaches) all had a lot more experience and success at junior than Ducky does right now.

 

[Gm0ney]

I think its just too soon to go with Hawerchuk. Three years isn't nearly enough IMO. I also can't help but think that this would be setting Dale up for failure this early in his coaching career.

I'm almost positive this recent media rumblings about Noel getting fired and Hawerchuk being in the running are just repeating Twitter rumours and baseless speculation.

 

[Grind]

No set number on how many years experience you need, but it's probably more than three.

Do you remember the Wayne Gretzky experience in Phoenix? He had a lifetime's worth of experience observing coaches too, but he wound up being a disaster as a head coach.

As for winning over the players with his experience... he was a star in this league before many of these players were even born.

And things can always get worse.

Don't get me wrong, the fan in me loves the idea of Dale Hawerchuk being the Jets head coach. But lets wait to see if he can establish himself as a great junior head coach first. Guys like Brent Sutter, Dale Hunter, Brian Sutter and Patrick Roy (ex-players who went from junior coaches to NHL coaches) all had a lot more experience and success at junior than Ducky does right now.

not to mention the league is quite different from when Ducky had his day, it's a different game now.

I love the idea of howerchuck as our coach, but not within the next three years. If we're serious about it, get him running the farm for a while and see how he does.

 

[Analyst365]

I guess I see the core angle a bit differently. I don't see Ladd, Little, Wheeler as the core this team is building with but rather see them as the transition core until The Kane, Bogosian, Scheifele and Trouba core is ready to take control of this team.

Once that happens guys like Little, Ladd and Enstrom will take secondary leadership and playing roles on the team and will act as veteran support to the new core. Of the old transition core I only see Wheeler as playing In a front line role. As for the rest of the current core I'd be looking at moving Buff next summer and buying out Pavelic.

I would actively shop for an upgrade at goalie and would be open to moving next years first and a B prospect for it.

That's a patient approach, but we're going on three years and asking for a couple more is a tough sell. We're on a game by game lifeline now it seems

 

[surixon]

That's a patient approach, but we're going on three years and asking for a couple more is a tough sell. We're on a game by game lifeline now it seems

Well I'm not opposed to taking a run at a big time FA to expedite the process. Its also amazing what a legit number one goalie can do for a team!

 

[Duke749]

Noel in today's press conference: "Our goaltending has been superb"

Look I used to be an unshakable Noel supporter. I'm not some "blame the coach" Noel hater. The biggest thing that has shaken my confindenc in Noel is how he's handled the goaltending situation. This might be the one thing that is Noel's ultimate downfall

I don't think our goaltending has been nearly as bad as some make it, but superb?? Yeah, that's an interesting one.

As for Hawerchuk being named as a replacement? What are they trying to do, one up the Thrashers regimen?? I mean, there's really no telling how he would do, but it just screams "amateur move".

 

[Jet]

Four thoughts:

Noel knows if he destroys Pav's confidence his job is in big jeopardy. I cannot imagine any sane man in the hockey business can say that Pav has been 'superb' and mean it. Unless he is daft.

I put rumors I hear nowadays at almost zero from 'hockey experts' on TV radio and social media. You see the way baseless stuff gets regurgitated online and somehow becomes fact.

Making Hawerchuk HC makes me nervous because of his lack of experience, but then I see Patrick Roy. I would still like to see a veteran, successful NHL coach come in but I'd prefer Hawerchuk to what we have now.

IF the team plays the way they played against the Caps I think it takes the pressure off Noel greatly -- suggesting he can in fact find a way to get these guys to play the correct way.

 

[Yukon Joe]

As for Hawerchuk being named as a replacement? What are they trying to do, one up the Thrashers regimen?? I mean, there's really no telling how he would do, but it just screams "amateur move".

Agreed, which is why it'll never happen (or at least won't happen right now).

 

[peg]

While the Noel debate rages, I would personally like to thank everyone who posted on the all-purpose Claude Noel job security discussion thread for bringing the subject to the forefront, putting enormous pressure on everyone in the Jets organization to have the team play inspired hockey, resulting in all of us being wildly entertained in a great effort by the boys on Tuesday night (outcome aside).

Without this thread and the hard work of the HF posters we would only have heard about the 5 year process, how some guys had to get unstuck, how they had to learn the system, and would have once again been treated to less than inspired hockey.

Thank you HF posters, Thank you!!

 

[Guerzy]

Four thoughts:

Noel knows if he destroys Pav's confidence his job is in big jeopardy. I cannot imagine any sane man in the hockey business can say that Pav has been 'superb' and mean it. Unless he is daft.

I put rumors I hear nowadays at almost zero from 'hockey experts' on TV radio and social media. You see the way baseless stuff gets regurgitated online and somehow becomes fact.

Making Hawerchuk HC makes me nervous because of his lack of experience, but then I see Patrick Roy. I would still like to see a veteran, successful NHL coach come in but I'd prefer Hawerchuk to what we have now.

IF the team plays the way they played against the Caps I think it takes the pressure off Noel greatly -- suggesting he can in fact find a way to get these guys to play the correct way.

Not only did Noel refer to him as "superb", but also... "spectacular".

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/sp...-critics-jets-head-out-on-road-229053681.html

Meanwhile, if we're keeping tabs on who stands where in the Great Pavelec Debate -- it's inevitable that it should happen, when a starting goalie is riding a .901 save percentage to start the season, and has been under .900 three times in the last five games -- count Noel firmly in his netminder's camp.

"I think our goaltending's been superb, to be honest with you," said the coach after Wednesday's skate.

"I don't think the numbers are fair, with Pavelec, because whether you look at numbers, or how you want to decipher it, he's made some spectacular saves at some key times, and really kept us in some games that he's had to stop some point-blank shots... For me, he's been there for us. He certainly hasn't been the problem. He's been spectacular for us."

 

[Yukon Joe]

Four thoughts:
Making Hawerchuk HC makes me nervous because of his lack of experience, but then I see Patrick Roy. I would still like to see a veteran, successful NHL coach come in but I'd prefer Hawerchuk to what we have now.

Roy was HC of the Remparts since 2005, and won the Memorial Cup. It's a much more impressive hockey resume than Hawerchuk has at this point.

 

[cbcwpg]

A name not mentioned, and just wondering what people think of as a potential replacement.... Scott Arniel.

He coached the Moose to their best season and got to the Calder Final. Won AHL coach of the year. Currently assistant for the NYR.

 

[Blue Shakehead]

I asked a question in a thread about our 1-2-2 and how other teams use it. At the games live, I don't think I had ever seen a team with their two forwards standing still in the neutral zone like ours were.

If changing to a 2-3 weak side lock was what happened in the last game, I would welcome that. It seems to play better with the talent on this team.

I did like the fact that they flipped the puck a few times and put it into open spaces for guys like Kane and Wheeler to retrieve.

I'll have to take your word on the NZ move by the centres as I didn't watch for that (were you watching for that, or did it just jump out at you?), but I did notice some better support in our own zone.

I'm not an expert on coaching systems or anything, but I'm interested in them enough to know the formations and the pros and cons of each. The funny thing about the 1-2-2 is that it looks almost identical to the 2-3 system: the only difference is that in the 2-3 system, the strong side defenseman will pinch if there's a reasonable expectation of getting possession of the puck and the high forward will move in behind him to cover the pinch. So its interesting that you spotted a 1-2-2 system, when they were playing a 2-3 because they are visually identical.

We were actually playing a 2-1-2 system the majority of time for the first stretch of games and it just wasn't working IMO. The opposing teams were making simple D to D passes and getting it our of their zone easily, by passing it cross ice to their F on the weak side. Over the past couple games though, I've noticed that one of the Jets F is moving to take away the D to D pass and the weak side defenseman is taking away the gap in the middle. So it looks like Noel has been making the proper adjustments, and that since then they've been effective. That doesn't mean it will stay that way...every system is beatable and requires execution. Even if you do everything perfectly, it might not work because the opposition is doing their jobs too.....if that makes sense. You just have to pick the system that aligns best with your roster and / or exposes the weaknesses in their systems / roster. On that score, I would give Noel marks, because his systems are driven by F speed and creating a lot of opportunities for our defense, where we're pretty capable. I notice some posters are anti-Noel because we play that passive box in the DZ, but I would put large amounts of money on that being an analytics decision based on reducing the probability of grade A scoring chances in the slot and giving us the best chance of clearing rebounds (of which there are a lot). Shorter version: theres a good chance that Noel has based his DZ coverage on trying to cover up for the glaring holes in Pavelecs game. Thats a guess though.

As for "watching for this stuff" - I usually catch it when I watch the game a 2nd time on PVR sans emotion, because I'm a huge Jetsnerd, like everyone else here.

 

[surixon]

A name not mentioned, and just wondering what people think of as a potential replacement.... Scott Arniel.

He coached the Moose to their best season and got to the Calder Final. Won AHL coach of the year. Currently assistant for the NYR.

I was a fan of his when he coached the Moose, but he didn't do a great job in his first HC stint in Columbus. That may not be entirely fair to him given the state of the org. But I'd still consider him a risky candidate.

 

[Yukon Joe]

A name not mentioned, and just wondering what people think of as a potential replacement.... Scott Arniel.

He coached the Moose to their best season and got to the Calder Final. Won AHL coach of the year. Currently assistant for the NYR.

Certainly a possibility. Played for several years with the Jets back in the 80s (and with the Moose in the 90s).

According to wiki his permanent residence is in Winnipeg.

Of course his one and a half years with Columbus didn't exactly cover him with glory, and I don't know if we want to go and hire two former Blue Jackets coaches in a row.