Speculation: The all-purpose Claude Noel job security discussion thread

[Gump Hasek]

I'm embarrassed for any fan that feels the preseason is an appropriate time to evaluate whether or not to fire the coach. The Jets booked additional preseason games this year so the kids and AHL guys could be given a fair evaluation in camp - following last season when the team was unable to hold a full camp due the lockout. It isn't about team play or win/loss results right now but rather is about making decisions regarding individual players.

Regarding player usage right now, they are giving certain guys a chance to either prove themselves or to play themselves off the team. Did any of you ever think that perhaps James Wright is getting a lot of ice-time because they may be evaluating whether or not to keep him? That Jokinen may be getting a big look because they are deciding whether or not to drop him to 3rd/4th line duty right away?

Addditionaly, it is not Noel's fault that Burmistrov was petulant and self-entitled due his being graduated to the NHL before he was ready. Burmistrov may possess some quality individual skills but he was also unable to manage the puck at an NHL level; he continually made the wrong choices with the puck over the past two seasons (within the systems play the team was trying to deploy), and his play away from the puck was often poor as well. Pretty much any NHL coach would find fault in that sort of a player. Frankly, Burmistrov should have spent the past two seasons in the AHL. There is an old saying; some are attracted to the sizzle and some to the steak. History is riddled with guys that possess flashy skills but couldn't cut it in the league. Instead of being upset that Burmistrov bailed because he couldn't cut it, perhaps some posters here should reassess their own ability to evaluate what it takes for a player to stick in the NHL. One of those things is playing the game the way the coach and team asks, for example; things like that represent a portion of the steak in this case.

I've long been of the opinion that this will be the first season that Noel will have an NHL caliber team to coach; he has actually done well the past two seasons with weak rosters and this season is the the time for them to show some improvement. The time to evaluate whether or not they will improve this year however isn't during the preseason when the actual team isn't even on the ice yet.

 

[Aela*]

I'm not sure if he should be fired just because we don't really have anyone to replace him. But I also don't think he should be coaching the Jets, so if a better coach comes onto the market, we should grab it.

 

[allan5oh]

I don't know which PP you guys are watching, but it seems to be massively improved over last year. Better zone entry (running picks, better timing), better setups (umbrella), better player usage, better net coverage, on and on.

 

[surixon]

Too early to fire anyone.

The next two preseason games will really point us to what this team is going to look like come opening night. And that's when the rubber hits the road. It will all come to a head by Christmas IMO.

If the team has a winning record..... Noel stays

If the team has a losing record, but the players are being used "properly" in Chevy's opinion, but underachieving.... Noel stays for the rest of the season. After... who knows.

If the team has a losing record and players like Jokinen and Wright have no production at all, but are getting big minutes..... Noel is gone.

Really though, it's all up to Chevy and TNSE and their "private" expectations for this season. Publicly they have to say it's playoffs or bust, but every team says that. But privately.... does TNSE and Chevy fully expect this team to make the playoffs after moving from the East to the West?

I agree completely. Publicly they will say that it's Noel's job to win but privately his mandate is to execute his part in the organizations strategy. The strategy is to draft and develop players so as an extension Noel's real job is to successfully integrate these young players into the roster and develop them into impact players. If Noel full fills his role well then the wins will follow as a result. If he continues to trot out underperforming vets at the expense of the organizations prized young assets that are deemed ready then he diverging from to overall strategy and will quickly find himself out of a job. Granted I'm willing to cut him some slack form the first two years as there wasn't anything in the cupboards so to speak of, but now there are two young players that the org has deemed ready or close to ready and it is now Noel's time to show that he can hold up his end of the bargain.

 

[Howard Chuck]

I will agree with about 2 and 4, but disagree with the rest

How is it the coaches fault buff didnt want to be "in shape"? The team can ask all they want, if the player doesnt want to commit....

as for last nights line up... I think way too many people around here are getting way too hung up on what happens in the preseason.

and the not playing a full 60 falls on everyone not just the coach

I realize that we had a lot of prospects to look at during the pre-season, and that's a good problem to have, but we now only have two games to start getting lines together and plays set, and systems in place (overall and special teams). Most other teams have been doing that already, for instance some of the plays that the Oilers were using last night obviously show that they've been working on things.

Last year we needed to win about one more game to get into the playoffs, so I would think that we would hit the ground running this year instead of using the first few games to start looking at lines and developing systems.

Like I said, we have a lot of prospects and that's great, but man we are a complete and utter disorganized mess out there on the ice. We don't have any lines except LLW, no one has played much together, and while we seem to have a lot of D depth, there haven't been many bright spots so far.

We need linemates to start gelling and systems put in place NOW! I would hope that we ice our full lineup for the next two games, before we start using the regular season to practice.

BTW, I am in the "Keep Noel" camp for now as well.

 

[Howard Chuck]

I don't necessarily agree about the development part. He has shown to be able to develop a couple of young players with some games under their belt (Kane and Bogo). He hasent however yet shown the ability to successfully break in a talented rookie as an NHL head coach. That to me is his litmus test this year, how well both Scheifele and Trouba break in will likely play a large role in if he is retained or let go.

What if they both leave to go play in the KHL?

 

[King Woodballs]

I realize that we had a lot of prospects to look at during the pre-season, and that's a good problem to have, but we now only have two games to start getting lines together and plays set, and systems in place (overall and special teams). Most other teams have been doing that already, for instance some of the plays that the Oilers were using last night obviously show that they've been working on things.

Last year we needed to win about one more game to get into the playoffs, so I would think that we would hit the ground running this year instead of using the first few games to start looking at lines and developing systems.

Like I said, we have a lot of prospects and that's great, but man we are a complete and utter disorganized mess out there on the ice. We don't have any lines except LLW, no one has played much together, and while we seem to have a lot of D depth, there haven't been many bright spots so far.

We need linemates to start gelling and systems put in place NOW! I would hope that we ice our full lineup for the next two games, before we start using the regular season to practice.

This is not what preseason games are to me. That is what the near weeks worth of practice time is going to be before the season opens.
Preseason games are for evaluating players to see where they fit within the Jets and the rest of the organization.

Why would you start doing PP/PK time and systems with players that you pretty much know are not going to be on the team, and even if they are... odds are wont be playing in those situations.

Seem pretty counter productive too me.

 

[Howard Chuck]

This is not what preseason games are to me. That is what the near weeks worth of practice time is going to be before the season opens.
Preseason games are for evaluating players to see where they fit within the Jets and the rest of the organization.

Why would you start doing PP/PK time and systems with players that you pretty much know are not going to be on the team, and even if they are... odds are wont be playing in those situations.

Seem pretty counter productive too me.

I agree that we have a lot of prospects to look at this year, and it was great to see them, the evaluation is taking a little long for my liking. I feel that we are probably a little behind the 8 ball right now for a bubble team. I'm sure it's a decision made for the long term rather than this year, but I want it all!

 

[King Woodballs]

I agree that we have a lot of prospects to look at this year, and it was great to see them, the evaluation is taking a little long for my liking. I feel that we are probably a little behind the 8 ball right now for a bubble team. I'm sure it's a decision made for the long term rather than this year, but I want it all!

I mean I do understand what allot of you guys are talking about.

But the only rookie I would say "guaranteed" a spot would have been Scheifele, and even that was a full guarantee.

Everyone else needs legit playing time to see who is and who isnt ready for prime time. Especially a guys like Trouba and Morrissey (Trouba I personally think makes this team out of camp Morrissey doesnt)
That is the only good way to evaluate and see if someone is ready, practice doesnt cut it.

System stuff can be implimented during practice time during and after camp.

 

[Gm0ney]

Did any of you ever think that perhaps James Wright is getting a lot of ice-time because they may be evaluating whether or not to keep him? That Jokinen may be getting a big look because they are deciding whether or not to drop him to 3rd/4th line duty right away?

I wonder if Noel has seen enough of Wright (after only all of last season and every pre-season game this year) to get a read on him?

 

[Gump Hasek]

I wonder if Noel has seen enough of Wright (after only all of last season and every pre-season game this year) to get a read on him?

Yeah, because 38 games of mostly 4th-line duty represents a fair evaluation of a player that was just 22 last season.

Am guessing they are trying to determine if there is any more to his game than that; the only way to do that is to place him into different usage situations during preseason. I admit that I don't hate Wright, unlike some here. I think he is a defensively responsible player without much offense; a 4th liner in other words. The key there is the defensively responsible part; they are moving into a conference where defensive play is at a premium so it makes sense for them to see where he stacks up, in case they've injuries higher-up in the lineup during the regular season and need filler.

 

[cbcwpg]

It's funny how the preseason has changed over the years and because of that change, teams like the Jets are caught in a bind as to what they use preseason for. In the past.... preseason was to invite the team you were going to start the year with.. and whip them into shape. The Jets are using preseason to evaluate young talent to see if they can make your team. This puts teams at a disadvantage IMO because when the season starts, they aren't quite ready to hit the ground running.

The AHL should be where you develop and evaluate your talent, and if they look ready, invite them to the main camp for the next season. But you only invite one or two guys you are looking at to fill positions, not 40 young guys.

With all the evaluating the Jets have been doing instead of actually preparing for the season... don't be surprised if they have a slow start.

Now back to Noel.... is it Noel's choice to use preseason as a 8 game evaluation camp instead of getting ready for the season, or is it Chevy's choice?

 

[King Woodballs]

It is probably an organization as whole's choice.
I am sure one person doesnt have be all end all power as to how the time is used.

 

[truck]

I have said that for years, but everyone EVERYWHERE doesnt see it that way.

Depends on how you want to spin things

OT Losses are losses... There is no debate over this to my knowledge.

Point percentage is another thing all together.

 

[King Woodballs]

OT Losses are losses... There is no debate over this to my knowledge.

Point percentage is another thing all together.

Tell that to every sports broadcaster and reporter in the country


Besides, do what ever you want to discredit Noel
I honestly don't care either way if he stays or goes.

 

[Edgar Halliwax]

I'm embarrassed for any fan that feels the preseason is an appropriate time to evaluate whether or not to fire the coach. The Jets booked additional preseason games this year so the kids and AHL guys could be given a fair evaluation in camp - following last season when the team was unable to hold a full camp due the lockout. It isn't about team play or win/loss results right now but rather is about making decisions regarding individual players.

Regarding player usage right now, they are giving certain guys a chance to either prove themselves or to play themselves off the team. Did any of you ever think that perhaps James Wright is getting a lot of ice-time because they may be evaluating whether or not to keep him? That Jokinen may be getting a big look because they are deciding whether or not to drop him to 3rd/4th line duty right away?

Addditionaly, it is not Noel's fault that Burmistrov was petulant and self-entitled due his being graduated to the NHL before he was ready. Burmistrov may possess some quality individual skills but he was also unable to manage the puck at an NHL level; he continually made the wrong choices with the puck over the past two seasons (within the systems play the team was trying to deploy), and his play away from the puck was often poor as well. Pretty much any NHL coach would find fault in that sort of a player. Frankly, Burmistrov should have spent the past two seasons in the AHL. There is an old saying; some are attracted to the sizzle and some to the steak. History is riddled with guys that possess flashy skills but couldn't cut it in the league. Instead of being upset that Burmistrov bailed because he couldn't cut it, perhaps some posters here should reassess their own ability to evaluate what it takes for a player to stick in the NHL. One of those things is playing the game the way the coach and team asks, for example; things like that represent a portion of the steak in this case.

I've long been of the opinion that this will be the first season that Noel will have an NHL caliber team to coach; he has actually done well the past two seasons with weak rosters and this season is the the time for them to show some improvement. The time to evaluate whether or not they will improve this year however isn't during the preseason when the actual team isn't even on the ice yet.

Gump - Once again - the voice of reason. Agreed 100%

 

[cheswick]

Too many people overestimate the talent on this team and somehow blame the coach. You can only do so much with the talent you are given. The Jets seriously lacked depth of talent for the past few seasons. There's a reason why all the players who were on the roster last season and who aren't this year couldn't find NHL jobs, save Hainsey who didn't exactly have teams knocking down his door.

 

[StronGeer]

Coaches who are obviously in over their heads should be fired immediately...

• playing Pavelec into the ground, especially when he is known to have issues with back-to-back games
• trying to destroy Kane's career by weighing him down with Jokinen. That alone should be enough to get him fired.
• destroying the 3rd line by keeping Wright there

I'm not Noel's biggest fan, but this statement is ridiculous

 

[Analyst365]

I see most of the points used to support the 'fire Noel' arguments are speculative/inaccurate.

 

[truck]

Tell that to every sports broadcaster and reporter in the country


Besides, do what ever you want to discredit Noel
I honestly don't care either way if he stays or goes.

I didn't say or do anything to discredit Noel.

If the numbers discredit Noel, that isn't on me.

 

[Nothing Is New]

It would be great to let the consensus of a team's Hockey's Future posters general manage a team. Lets put Scheifele on the top line. Lets play all the rookies. Lets sign a bunch of unmotivated free agents. Whats this two-way hockey crap? We'll ditch the Nashville formulation and go all Edmondton. After all, they play rookies out the yen-yang and have won several Cups recently (I think).


IMO, Noel has done well with (still) substandard overall talent. Winnipeg is a bear to play at home and have contended for the playoffs every year. of course we want more, but you can't do it without productive NHL level players.

 

[JetsHomer]

It would be great to let the consensus of a team's Hockey's Future posters general manage a team. Lets put Scheifele on the top line. Lets play all the rookies. Lets sign a bunch of unmotivated free agents. Whats this two-way hockey crap? We'll ditch the Nashville formulation and go all Edmondton. After all, they play rookies out the yen-yang and have won several Cups recently (I think).


IMO, Noel has done well with (still) substandard overall talent. Winnipeg is a bear to play at home and have contended for the playoffs every year. of course we want more, but you can't do it without productive NHL level players.

They have a productive first line. Our top 3 Dmen is one of the better top 3 in the league. We have two blue-chip prospects that are looking to for spots. We aquired a second line winger this off-season. We have talent. The core is essentially locked up, if Noel can't get them into the playoffs this year in a really weak division, then I see Chevy bringing in someone else.

 

[Howard Chuck]

They have a productive first line. Our top 3 Dmen is one of the better top 3 in the league. We have two blue-chip prospects that are looking to for spots. We aquired a second line winger this off-season. We have talent. The core is essentially locked up, if Noel can't get them into the playoffs this year in a really weak division, then I see Chevy bringing in someone else.

We have the potential for a very good second line as well, if it's put together intelligently.

Edited to say that we actually could have a very good third line as well, depending upon how players are lined up.

 

[Gm0ney]

Too many people overestimate the talent on this team and somehow blame the coach. You can only do so much with the talent you are given. The Jets seriously lacked depth of talent for the past few seasons. There's a reason why all the players who were on the roster last season and who aren't this year couldn't find NHL jobs, save Hainsey who didn't exactly have teams knocking down his door.

Someone should start the Official "Fire Kevin Cheveldayoff" thread, I guess!

In Claude's defense, he's basically had the 2010-11 Thrashers to work with. Same starting goalie, same Top 7 scorers (Ladd, Little, Wheeler, Kane, Enstrom, Buff and Antropov) - add a Clitsome and a Jokinen here, subtract an Oduya and a Stapleton there, but it's mainly the same team. So with that basic core, he's managed to improve the results each year

Points Percentage:
ATL 2010-11: .487 (80 points)
WPG 2011-12: .512 (84 points)
WPG 2012-13: .530 (87 points prorated)

Shots F/A:
ATL 10-11: 31.5 SF (11th) / 32.3 SA (26th)
WPG 11-12: 30.1 SF (13th) / 30.1 SA (15th)
WPG 12-13: 28.9 SF (16th) / 29.7 SA (18th)

Special Teams:
ATL 10-11: PP 18.3% (12th) / PK 77.5% (27th)
WPG 11-12: PP 17.9% (12th) / PK 80.1% (24th)
WPG 12-13: PP 13.8% (30th) / PK 79.7% (24th)

So on the positive side the team is winning more and playing better D (improved SA/G each season). Negatives: the PP last year was terrible *cough* Jokinen *cough* (losing Enstrom, really). Special teams in general haven't impressed. Shots For have slipped a bit (maybe as a result of better team D / less wide-open play).

Factor in the injuries to the Jets Top 3 D last season, and by the numbers at least, it's hard to fault Noel's performance.

The negatives re: Noel are his baffling personnel decisions and perhaps his ability to motivate the team to play consistently (although that's a bit hard to nail down).

 

[King Woodballs]

They have a productive first line. Our top 3 Dmen is one of the better top 3 in the league. We have two blue-chip prospects that are looking to for spots. We aquired a second line winger this off-season. We have talent. The core is essentially locked up, if Noel can't get them into the playoffs this year in a really weak division, then I see Chevy bringing in someone else.

I think you are under estimating this division.

But I do agree, that if they dont make the playoffs Noel will be gone.