The all-purpose: Alexander Wennberg thread

[CBJWerenski8]

So I just looked at his statline. Maybe it’s because I was expecting to see some Riley Nash-esc numbers but 14 points in 25 games isn’t exactly poor production.

Yeah, one goal isn’t good and certainly not ideal. But I think that production is more than fine if he can improve his face off ability. Perfect 3C, although a tad rich.

 

[EDM]

IF HE CAN IMPROVE HIS FACE OFF ABILITY !!!! But he can't. That is the point. He has been in the league now for 4 years and his face off numbers are pretty much the same. He has had several off seasons to work on it and there has been no improvement. And that is vintage Wennberg. He plays "his game". The team's needs be damned. For Pooh it is all about playing the way he wants to play without regard to what the team needs.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

IF HE CAN IMPROVE HIS FACE OFF ABILITY !!!! But he can't. That is the point. He has been in the league now for 4 years and his face off numbers are pretty much the same.

He’s like 23/24. He’s not a finished product when it comes to face offs.

And if he never improves, he’s a 3C. There’s worse things to have.

 

[thebus88]

You guys are talking about Wennberg being a "3C", the same way you were talking about him being a "2C" a year ago.

And its the same way you were talking about him being a "1C", 2 years ago.

In a shootout, MAYBE give me Stenlund over Jenner or Foligno. In a REAL GAME (in the NHL), in 2018/19 or 19/20, give me Jenner AND Dubinsky over Stenlund and Wenny.

That pass to Atkinson from behind the net is a perfect example of a "primary" assist being barely any work or take any skill. MANY of his powerplay assists have been this way, and they make up the majority of his assists. For his entire career.

Cue the "oh PP points don't count"!?!?, BS.

Say what you want about his passing or "playmaking", or primary assists. To see how the opinions of even the most "pro Wennberg" people have been FORCED to change, in a "short" period of time, is more than enough proof for me that he doesn't deserve the praise of the defense he's been given.

Other than Nash in regards to the center position, and Bjorkstrand in regards to overall "disappointment", tell me that Wennberg ISN'T the most disappointing player on offense this year...

 

[thebus88]

He’s like 23/24. He’s not a finished product when it comes to face offs.

And if he never improves, he’s a 3C. There’s worse things to have.

Ryan Murray was "written off" by a lot of people at the same age.

Also, this has to be the 1st time that the majority of people (the pro-Wenny crowd) are calling him a "3C". Before, he was considered, "at WORST, a 2C". No?

What should we take away from that?

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Ryan Murray was "written off" by a lot of people at the same age.

Also, this has to be the 1st time that the majority of people (the pro-Wenny crowd) are calling him a "3C". Before, he was considered, "at WORST, a 2C". No?

What should we take away from that?

Murray wasn't written off due to poor play or ability (for the most part), it was injuries. And the people "writing him off" were just willing to deal him for a center upgrade. Not dumping him outright for some draft picks. Come on now.

Also the argument of people giving up on Murray at a young age is perfect proof that we SHOULDN'T do the same thing again. No?

Yeah, I'd say that's fair with Wennberg. Even with his inflated PP numbers the guy scored almost 60 points. That's #1 C production, or at least close to it. 40+ points, IMO, is close to #2 C production. However, he doesn't score enough goals and isn't dangerous with the puck enough to qualify as a #2 C. His intellect and decision making makes him a valuable weapon to have on the PP as well as in the bottom 6. Should he be untouchable? Absolutely not. Should we be looking to trade him? Probably not. He has a place on the team, especially when he plays like he has recently. He's still young enough and produced enough to be worth the investment with time and money. That's what I take away from it, but hey I'm "pro Wenny" because I guess there's only two sides to this damn argument.

 

[Monk]

Ryan Murray was "written off" by a lot of people at the same age.

Also, this has to be the 1st time that the majority of people (the pro-Wenny crowd) are calling him a "3C". Before, he was considered, "at WORST, a 2C". No?

What should we take away from that?

That things change?

 

[EDM]

If we trade him, Cam will miss Pooh.

 

[thebus88]

That things change?

Yes.

Perception.

 

[CBJx614]

It's funny, I get the feeling the people who say this doesn't take any skill have never even laced up a pair of skates.

I'd love to see some of you willing/able to stand in front of the net and then be able to get the puck, transition and place a perfect sauce on Cam's stick.

Don't get me wrong, it's not exactly a "hard" play but that's no gimme either.

 

[EDM]

To me it is harder to do what Cam did: hit a moving puck so it goes like a laser into a small opening on the goalie's right side.

The problem I have with assists is that they are given equal weight to an actual goal when scoring the goal is usually far more of a exercise in skill than the pass to the goal scorer. And of course, the secondary assist is a complete joke. If a goal were weighted more heavily than an assist and secondary assists were eliminated I think we would see player statistics that more accurately reflect reality.

 

[major major]

To me it is harder to do what Cam did: hit a moving puck so it goes like a laser into a small opening on the goalie's right side.

The problem I have with assists is that they are given equal weight to an actual goal when scoring the goal is usually far more of a exercise in skill than the pass to the goal scorer. And of course, the secondary assist is a complete joke. If a goal were weighted more heavily than an assist and secondary assists were eliminated I think we would see player statistics that more accurately reflect reality.

I think this is overstated if not completely wrong. Think about the proportion of goals where the puck is on the shooter's stick for less than one second, because they are set up with a golden opportunity (frequently an open net to shoot at). Everyone in the NHL can rip the puck into the net, it's getting scoring opportunities that's the hard part.

BTW, the general weighting scheme you are describing at the end of your comment is common these days. I think most game score models still include credit for a secondary but it's worth much less than a primary.

Regarding the Atkinson goal, it's not a great example of skill by either player - it's just good execution of a play that most pros can make (the pass and the shot).

 

[Cyclones Rock]

If a goal were weighted more heavily than an assist and secondary assists were eliminated I think we would see player statistics that more accurately reflect reality.

I would imagine that there are analytics models that are currently employed by NHL teams which, while not eliminating secondary assists, weigh them far less than primary assists. Models probably also don't weight primary assists as highly as goals. Perhaps some models completely eliminate the secondary assist. They would be interesting to see.

I don't see any need to eliminate the traditional stats. They've been part of the game for so long that they provide information that allows less sophisticated observers (like me) to compare players in a reasonably accurate fashion.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

The problem I have with assists is that they are given equal weight to an actual goal when scoring the goal is usually far more of a exercise in skill than the pass to the goal scorer.

Sometimes the pass is just as skilled as the goal. In this case both were pretty nifty.

 

[Mikey09]

Wenny definitely starting to look like a 3rd line C, but a very good one. Maybe try and get JT Miller and possibly use him as 2C? And roll PLD-JT-Wenny at C

 

[blahblah]

And of course, the secondary assist is a complete joke.

Sometimes the secondary assist was actually far more important that the primary assist. I've seen a lot of players check(s) lead to a turnover and get the puck moving up the ice. Without that play the corresponding rush wouldn't have even have happened. This is just one example.

We spend a lot of time worrying about nothing and the secondary assist debate is one of those things. Calling secondary assists a complete joke just illustrates that we don't always know what we're looking at on the ice.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Sometimes the secondary assist was actually far more important that the primary assist. I've seen a lot of players check(s) lead to a turnover and get the puck moving up the ice. Without that play the corresponding rush wouldn't have even have happened. This is just one example.

We spend a lot of time worrying about nothing and the secondary assist debate is one of those things. Calling secondary assists a complete joke just illustrates that we don't always know what we're looking at on the ice.

Or it's just a lazy way to advance a POV.

 

[CBJx614]

 

[blahblah]

Or it's just a lazy way to advance a POV.

I can only take the post(s) at face value.

 

[Crede777]

Assists and secondary assists are given equal weight to a goal on the stats sheet. But beyond that, who knows?

I haven't done any rigorous analysis or anything, but I would guess that teams compensate better for goals than they do assists.

 

[major major]

Now that was a great secondary assist by Wennberg (they do exist!). He had no business winning that puck.

 

[thebus88]

Since we seem to be so focused on simply what has occurred and not why it has occurred.

Looking at the stats, 1/3 into the year, its safe to say that at this point in their careers, RYAN MURRAY is quite literally a more dangerous offensive player than Alexander Wennberg. I know you guys can bust out the calculators and dig thru the "expert blogs", but all the numbers I see, seem to prove it.

Goals, assists, shots, +/-.

You guys probably think I'm being facetious. But, look at it this way. Pretty much everybody can agree that Wennberg's best trait and the thing he brings the most to a team, is his "playmaking" or passing ability.

Can you really say that Wennberg is a better passer than Murray??

My main point when I challenge many of Wennberg's assists, is not if they are 1st (primary) or 2nd (secondary) assists, its what he actually had to do, to make the pass and get the assist.

Another thing I find interesting that its never brought up (statistically) is just how much he passes. Just by the sheer amount of passes he makes, and PP ice time he gets, he is due to get "a lot" of assists. But, with all these "advancements" in "statistics", where are the pass statistics?? Pass attempts, pass completions, dangerous area passes, passes above expectations, etc...??

Too advanced?

 

[Viqsi]

But, with all these "advancements" in "statistics", where are the pass statistics?? Pass attempts, pass completions, dangerous area passes, passes above expectations, etc...??

Still being refined, because the folks working on this stuff recognize that that's an area that is insufficiently covered. The problem is that the NHL doesn't track this stuff in any form, so folks are having to take it on themselves to track those numbers by hand. We're finally starting to get to the point where there's enough numbers to do some analysis, but it's still woefully incomplete because it's strictly an amateur effort.

 

[blahblah]

Can you really say that Wennberg is a better passer than Murray??

Possible conflation, play making is not necessarily synonymous with passer(ing). Making a good breakout pass is far different than finding and getting the puck to a player while under pressure (as an example). Murray and Wennberg are going to be on different places on the ice and they are going to have the pucks under different situations(s), especially in the offensive zone.

As far as Murray goes, I'm not sure how able he is to make that pass that Werenski made the other day that turned into a deflection. and goal. That was a thing of beauty.

In respect to Wennberg he has great vision as compared to other centers that play his role. Where that translates to in some type of ranking I have no idea. That certainly doesn't make up for his deficiencies in the offensive zone, which includes but no limited to taking draws.

 

[CBJx614]

Nvm