Pre-Game Talk: The 2023-2024 Tampa Bay Lightning Training Camp

[JTBF81]

Agreed. The only problem ABB has vs JAM and Verhaeghe, is that for all his talent, his motor doesn't match his talent. It's like he's loafing out there vs a guy like Alex Volkov or Jesse Puljujarvi. They were always watching the game happen around them trying to figure out what to do next and then doing it like three seconds too late

ABB hasn't looked like that really much, if at all this preseason. Not saying he's locked up the 2RW spot, but he looks considerably faster and more capable of handling the speed and/or pace of NHL play this go around(so far anyway).

 

[AndreRoy]

i’ve seen nothing to change my opinion on ABB. If he is given time he can get a nice pass or shot off but that time just doesn’t exist at the nhl level. if a defenseman goes anywhere near him he is just gonna lose the puck.

You used to see the same thing a lot in basketball between college and the pros. Plenty of great college three-point shooters couldn’t make it in the NBA because they weren’t athletic enough to free up their own shots. Set them up for an open jumper and they’d drain it every time, but those opportunities simply weren’t common enough at the highest level for those players to be successful.

(These days with all the rule changes neutering defense the sport has devolved to where that’s pretty much the entire game, so those players probably would have been far more successful today.)

 

[EXTRAS]

Is Hagel gonna be on pp1?

 

[DFC]

32 total NHL games over 4 seasons, no more than maybe 16 at any time, had a better than ppg and plenty of comments from the Crunch staff indicating he may ha e found his game/turned a corner, but he's a lock for 13th F because Merela had 1 decent game.....

Not even making that argument. I'm just saying I doubt the team would care if hes the 13th F, whereas with a younger player we would rather make sure they are playing somewhere. I think the ship has sailed on this one.

 

[These Are The Days]

ABB hasn't looked like that really much, if at all this preseason. Not saying he's locked up the 2RW spot, but he looks considerably faster and more capable of handling the speed and/or pace of NHL play this go around(so far anyway).

I absolutely believe you. I liked what little I saw of ABB but every time he gets to the Lightning, he gets outmuscled or is too slow in reacting. I don't think it's a reach to say his talent is comparable to Tyler Johnson but the thing is, Johnson could read what was happening better than most everyone on the ice and put himself into positions where he wasn't disadvantaged by his size. If he had to get rid of the puck he'd do it, if he needed to make that pass he'd make it.

There was a point (no pun intended) where Point wasn't realizing he had more time to do what he wanted and hadn't figured out the full speed of the NHL yet. ABB doesn't look like he's mastered it or had enough time either. I hope he gets a nice long leash but it really is do or die for him.

 

[JTBF81]

Not even making that argument. I'm just saying I doubt the team would care if hes the 13th F, whereas with a younger player we would rather make sure they are playing somewhere. I think the ship has sailed on this one.

Disagree, and the Lightning have had their share of "late bloomers." I'd look to be traded or hope to be claimed off waivers before sitting in the press box most, if not all of the season if that's all ABB has to look forward to this year with Tampa.

 

[JTBF81]

I absolutely believe you. I liked what little I saw of ABB but every time he gets to the Lightning, he gets outmuscled or is too slow in reacting. I don't think it's a reach to say his talent is comparable to Tyler Johnson but the thing is, Johnson could read what was happening better than most everyone on the ice and put himself into positions where he wasn't disadvantaged by his size. If he had to get rid of the puck he'd do it, if he needed to make that pass he'd make it.

There was a point (no pun intended) where Point wasn't realizing he had more time to do what he wanted and hadn't figured out the full speed of the NHL yet. ABB doesn't look like he's mastered it or had enough time either. I hope he gets a nice long leash but it really is do or die for him.

I agree that this is his last year with Tampa if he can't earn a spot, but getting a spot and just being the 13th F where he has very little playing time to look forward to is a waste for him. Hopefully, he and Merela get the last two spots and each gets a real chance, but neither should be in the press box most of the year. Merela would be better served to be playing in Syracuse in that case, and for ABB, another team.

 

[LightningStrikes]

Is Hagel gonna be on pp1?

They had him on PP2 last season and during the one pre-season game (with Paul replacing Killorn on PP1).

 

[Todd1a]

I still find myself in the same spot with ABB, he isn't responsible enough to be in the top six and not enough of a banger to play in the bottom six. Fortier fits that role better than him unless ABB can start finding the back of the net this season. Keep Merela, let Watson go.

I agree I’d waive ABB to the AHL he’s consis enough and I’d keep merela in the nhl to start the season

 

[JTBF81]

I agree I’d waive ABB to the AHL he’s consis enough and I’d keep merela in the nhl to start the season

There's absolutely nothing left for him in the AHL. He's looked much improved this preseason, and hopefully, the coaching staff has seen that as well. Merela had a solid game, but it was one game, so I doubt he's a lock just yet. ABB, if he continues a successful preseason, probably gets claimed anyway(if he's waived), as in his position he should be thinking NHL or playing professionally elsewhere.

 

[Crunchrulz]

There's absolutely nothing left for him in the AHL. He's looked much improved this preseason, and hopefully, the coaching staff has seen that as well. Merela had a solid game, but it was one game, so I doubt he's a lock just yet. ABB, if he continues a successful preseason, probably gets claimed anyway(if he's waived), as in his position he should be thinking NHL or playing professionally elsewhere.

Exactly.

 

[OffBy1]

Merela had a solid game, but it was one game, so I doubt he's a lock just yet.

Merela was very noticeable in all three rookie camp games - scoring, assisting, winning faceoffs, winning board battles, killing penalties, net front presence, deflecting shots in, etc. His first preseason game was his least noticeable for me, and his 2nd was his best game yet. I think he has outperformed ABB (who's a year older than him) and everyone else fighting for a roster spot thus far. Groshev was the 2nd most impactful and noticeable in my opinion, but he's been sent down. ABB has made some good plays, but he seems more one dimensional than Merela. People have been commenting that his skating has improved, it still doesn't look great to me for a smaller player.

 

[DFC]

Disagree, and the Lightning have had their share of "late bloomers." I'd look to be traded or hope to be claimed off waivers before sitting in the press box most, if not all of the season if that's all ABB has to look forward to this year with Tampa.

They all showed something before this. Maybe not points, but you could see flashes. ABB gets lost in the mix too easily.

 

[AndreRoy]

Disagree, and the Lightning have had their share of "late bloomers." I'd look to be traded or hope to be claimed off waivers before sitting in the press box most, if not all of the season if that's all ABB has to look forward to this year with Tampa.

Thing is he doesn’t have a say in the matter, nor should he. He signed a contract with the Tampa Bay Lightning, they have a roster to fill out, and somebody needs to be the 13th forward. He may not like it, but if he can’t secure a starting role for himself after all these years he has nobody but himself to blame.

And I do get that sometimes teams will do a player a favor and trade or waive him if he doesn’t have a role with the team, but the 13th forward is a role with the team, even if it isn’t the role that most players would prefer to have, and it needs to be filled by somebody. It’s one thing to trade/waive an older prospect or longtime NHL veteran who won’t make the cut and who you don’t see having a future with the organization early in camp to give him more time to catch on somewhere else; it’s quite another to do that for somebody you plan on putting on your NHL roster. So like it or not, if ABB is the best option for that role, that’s where he’s going to be; if he doesn’t like it he’ll be a UFA in a year and can go to any team that will take him at that time.

 

[AndreRoy]

I’ll add that the Lightning making ABB their 13th forward (if that does turn out to be the case) is in no way unfair to him. There are rules that exist to ensure that players have a reasonable opportunity to earn success at the NHL level, and they have worked as intended in ABB’s case.

First, waiver requirements prevent teams from perpetually burying prospects below the NHL level. ABB has been subject to this requirement and was even claimed, and he failed to stick on Seattle’s roster despite them having significantly worse forward depth than Tampa. He got his chance to go elsewhere and was unable to do anything with it.

Second, the group 6 UFA rule prevents teams from keeping players either in their system or in the press box in perpetuity without giving them a chance to play in NHL games. ABB would have been a UFA under this rule by now if he hadn’t chosen to sign a three-year deal with the Bolts. He had the opportunity to bet on himself by not signing an extension past age 25, which would have made him a group 6 UFA by now; he chose instead to opt for the security of a multi-year deal, knowing that in doing so he might find himself stuck either in the AHL (if he clears waivers) or in the press box.

In short, ABB has had multiple opportunities to put himself in a better position than potentially being Tampa’s 13th forward, and his failures on the ice and contractual decision off it are why he has no reason to complain if that’s where he ends up; the team and the league have been completely fair to him.

 

[b0lthed]

Any thoughts on Groshev’s skill and talent level, where he might end up, what role?

With so many pluggers lined up to play in our bottom six I’m hoping someone emerges at some point this season to bring the possibility of chipping in some offense. Maybe Merela is our best hope for that, but I’m interested in Groshev as well.

 

[JTBF81]

Thing is he doesn’t have a say in the matter, nor should he. He signed a contract with the Tampa Bay Lightning, they have a roster to fill out, and somebody needs to be the 13th forward. He may not like it, but if he can’t secure a starting role for himself after all these years he has nobody but himself to blame.

And I do get that sometimes teams will do a player a favor and trade or waive him if he doesn’t have a role with the team, but the 13th forward is a role with the team, even if it isn’t the role that most players would prefer to have, and it needs to be filled by somebody. It’s one thing to trade/waive an older prospect or longtime NHL veteran who won’t make the cut and who you don’t see having a future with the organization early in camp to give him more time to catch on somewhere else; it’s quite another to do that for somebody you plan on putting on your NHL roster. So like it or not, if ABB is the best option for that role, that’s where he’s going to be; if he doesn’t like it he’ll be a UFA in a year and can go to any team that will take him at that time.

Okay, sure. Doesn't change that at his stage of his career, imo I'd ask my agent to facilitate a trade or waive me if that's all my future was with current team. Rather than wasting another year, I would attempt to see what I could do elsewhere, contract or not. His play so far has been good enough to be better than the 13th F anyway though, so it shouldn't come to that.

He's had, at most 15 games in any one stint in the NHL over the past 4 years, hardly enough if a chance to establish anything. I know he won't sit for 82 games, but only getting another quarter of a season or so isn't ideal for a player in his position. If he plays well enough, he should get an actual chance to develop some chemistry and get reasonable playing time in tbe top 12. One game and a rookie camp hasn't been enough to promote Merela over him imo.

 

[DFC]

I’ll add that the Lightning making ABB their 13th forward (if that does turn out to be the case) is in no way unfair to him. There are rules that exist to ensure that players have a reasonable opportunity to earn success at the NHL level, and they have worked as intended in ABB’s case.

First, waiver requirements prevent teams from perpetually burying prospects below the NHL level. ABB has been subject to this requirement and was even claimed, and he failed to stick on Seattle’s roster despite them having significantly worse forward depth than Tampa. He got his chance to go elsewhere and was unable to do anything with it.

Second, the group 6 UFA rule prevents teams from keeping players either in their system or in the press box in perpetuity without giving them a chance to play in NHL games. ABB would have been a UFA under this rule by now if he hadn’t chosen to sign a three-year deal with the Bolts. He had the opportunity to bet on himself by not signing an extension past age 25, which would have made him a group 6 UFA by now; he chose instead to opt for the security of a multi-year deal, knowing that in doing so he might find himself stuck either in the AHL (if he clears waivers) or in the press box.

In short, ABB has had multiple opportunities to put himself in a better position than potentially being Tampa’s 13th forward, and his failures on the ice and contractual decision off it are why he has no reason to complain if that’s where he ends up; the team and the league have been completely fair to him.

Exactly this. Seattle was the final nail, IMO. He had a full opportunity there with a team that needed scorers. There is a long history of great AHL players who just can't cut it in the NHL, and ABB seems to be more that than a late bloomer.

Okay, sure. Doesn't change that at his stage of his career, imo I'd ask my agent to facilitate a trade or waive me if that's all my future was with current team. Rather than wasting another year, I would attempt to see what I could do elsewhere, contract or not. His play so far has been good enough to be better than the 13th F anyway though, so it shouldn't come to that.

He's had, at most 15 games in any one stint in the NHL over the past 4 years, hardly enough if a chance to establish anything. I know he won't sit for 82 games, but only getting another quarter of a season or so isn't ideal for a player in his position. If he plays well enough, he should get an actual chance to develop some chemistry and get reasonable playing time in tbe top 12. One game and a rookie camp hasn't been enough to promote Merela over him imo.

I mean, what team is going to give up an asset for him? Like, literally anything. This is a guy on a minimum contract who got waived, picked up, and let go. At best we could do a minor league trade with a team intending to play him in the AHL.

If he wants to leave for another league, honestly it's a huge loss to the Crunch, but it doesn't move the needle a hair for TB. He is a non-factor for us.

As for 15 games in any one stint... I mean, he did literally nothing that should have earned him more time. That's where there's a big distinction between him and our other late bloomers. With JAM, you could see he had a goal-scorer's shot, and nose for the net. Verhaeghe was tougher to see, but especially toward the end he was making a lot of plays for his teammates. Neither were putting up points, but there was potential beyond what we saw of them in the AHL.

ABB just hasn't shown that. Maybe he's a guy like Brett Connolly or Richard Panik, who just couldn't process the game at NHL speed. Both of those guys did have one decent season elsewhere, if memory serves, but I mean... at a certain point guys just become expendable. Or at least a lot less protected and/or groomed for success. To me, again, ABB jumped the shark when he couldn't cut it in Seattle. Now he's a great AHL player who doesn't project to anything more than a warm body in the NHL. History is full of those.

 

[JTBF81]

Exactly this. Seattle was the final nail, IMO. He had a full opportunity there with a team that needed scorers. There is a long history of great AHL players who just can't cut it in the NHL, and ABB seems to be more that than a late bloomer.

I mean, what team is going to give up an asset for him? Like, literally anything. This is a guy on a minimum contract who got waived, picked up, and let go. At best we could do a minor league trade with a team intending to play him in the AHL.

If he wants to leave for another league, honestly it's a huge loss to the Crunch, but it doesn't move the needle a hair for TB. He is a non-factor for us.

As for 15 games in any one stint... I mean, he did literally nothing that should have earned him more time. That's where there's a big distinction between him and our other late bloomers. With JAM, you could see he had a goal-scorer's shot, and nose for the net. Verhaeghe was tougher to see, but especially toward the end he was making a lot of plays for his teammates. Neither were putting up points, but there was potential beyond what we saw of them in the AHL.

ABB just hasn't shown that. Maybe he's a guy like Brett Connolly or Richard Panik, who just couldn't process the game at NHL speed. Both of those guys did have one decent season elsewhere, if memory serves, but I mean... at a certain point guys just become expendable. Or at least a lot less protected and/or groomed for success. To me, again, ABB jumped the shark when he couldn't cut it in Seattle. Now he's a great AHL player who doesn't project to anything more than a warm body in the NHL. History is full of those.

All of 2 games in Seattle, you mean. He had 1 point, but roster considerations led them to waiving him, not necessarily because he couldn't cut it. He's looked fine so far in camp and preseason, so getting a regular roster spot seems likely. I don't think he has any desire to play another year for the Crunch, so while I think he ends up between the 2nd and 3rd lines as the season progresses, if he is waived after a good preseason, there may be a team willing to give him a shot.

 

[DFC]

All of 2 games in Seattle, you mean. He had 1 point, but roster considerations led them to waiving him, not necessarily because he couldn't cut it. He's looked fine so far in camp and preseason, so getting a regular roster spot seems likely. I don't think he has any desire to play another year for the Crunch, so while I think he ends up between the 2nd and 3rd lines as the season progresses, if he is waived after a good preseason, there may be a team willing to give him a shot.

LOL Roster considerations on an expansion team...

2 games in Seattle is not a point on his side.

 

[Evgeny Oliker]

So has Tomkins outplayed Johansson in camp and pre-season?

Tomkins will make the team along with Johansson? If so who do you see winning that battle (assuming no G is claimed)?

 

[JTBF81]

LOL Roster considerations on an expansion team...

2 games in Seattle is not a point on his side.

Or maybe Seattle had other players returning and needed the fill in from ABB or other possible reasons(I.dont follow them so cant say) rather than your take that he wasn't good enough. He's looked better overall than Fortier, Watson and Merela thus far, despite everyone's infatuation with Merela over one game and a rookie camp. Merela has played well enough to put him ahead of Watson and Fortier, but nothing so far indicates he gets a regular spot.

 

[DFC]

Or maybe Seattle had other players returning and needed the fill in from ABB or other possible reasons(I.dont follow them so cant say) rather than your take that he wasn't good enough. He's looked better overall than Fortier, Watson and Merela thus far, despite everyone's infatuation with Merela over one game and a rookie camp. Merela has played well enough to put him ahead of Watson and Fortier, but nothing so far indicates he gets a regular spot.

Not particularly fascinated by any of them. But to think that Seattle, a team who could seriously use some scoring, and whose top scorer had 50 points the year they had ABB in their hands, just gave up on him because of bad luck...

He couldn't cut it there like he hasn't been able to cut it here.

I mean, it's possible that the game opening up in the last year or two will help him. But man, he really hasn't shown a thing at the NHL level. I don't see how we'd have any problem with keeping him in the pressbox if there are 12 better guys.

 

[JTBF81]

Not particularly fascinated by any of them. But to think that Seattle, a team who could seriously use some scoring, and whose top scorer had 50 points the year they had ABB in their hands, just gave up on him because of bad luck...

He couldn't cut it there like he hasn't been able to cut it here.

I mean, it's possible that the game opening up in the last year or two will help him. But man, he really hasn't shown a thing at the NHL level. I don't see how we'd have any problem with keeping him in the pressbox if there are 12 better guys.

You say Seattle had trouble scoring and after 2 games they waived ABB, as though that's all there is to it. Seattle was actually dealing with several regular players in Covid protocol at the time and so when ABB was waived, they decided to.add him. He may not have lit up the scoresheet while there, but did record a primary assist in his first game(Seattle's 1st ever win I believe, and only averaged around 10 minutes per game). With some of their primary players coming back, I doubt Francis saw him as a long term player there, but two games is hardly any indication of whether the player has what it takes. I don't see 12 better players in Tampa at this time, but of course that could change. I'd have ABB 11th right now and with the ability to challenge for higher if things continue to improve.

 

[Silver Tuna]

Pretty sure Seattle only claimed ABB because they had like 5 players out with covid(or some type of sickness)