Pre-Game Talk: The 2021/2022 Training Camp Thread

[xtra]

Rathbone, Gaudette, Mcdonough, Lockwood, are all players who look like they will play 100+ games. thats not including the players who are trending in a right direction such as Jurmo, Jasek, Myrenberg. They all look like they are trending to get NHL games and have decent careers.

Lower picks naturally take longer to develop most of those picks we wont know what they are until +3/+4 years

abd hodgson looked like a perennial all star but that didn’t happen. So until these guys actually play 100 games you can’t count them as nhl regulars which is the point MS was making

 

[ProstheticConscience]

I'm still pissed about Gadjovich. What a great camp getting to see all these plugs that would clear waivers and have many times over getting to play while they dont even give the youngest, toughest, best goal scorer and net front presence that got over a bunch of injuries to try and make the team this year a fair chance. Yes only a 2nd round pick 4yrs ago and Uticas best goal scorer by far....no biggie

I see Sharks fans are hoping he can be a Ryan Clowe for their organization. Just great. Don't worry we kept the better skaters and positional guys that accomplish nothing and are weak to audition for the team.

Last game he plays as a Canuck scores a goal is a +1 has 3 shots and a hit in 9 minutes of a 4-1 loss. Yes why give him another chance. I mean he only just played an impressive game in Abbotsford setting up a beauty goal and played his first NHL game last year and guess what got into a fight and impressively won sticking up for his team.

Hmnnn yes gotta keep those AHL veterans around because they are better skaters today and probably look crisper in the practice drills...and to think i was happy we lost Lind instead of Gadjovich to Seattle. I usually dont dwell on tweeners but this one really really pisses me off especially with Motter and Sutter out and the opportunity that should have been given to a guy that despite his skating just kept making things happen,

Would like if I could.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

First point Is a straw man.

second point - the good picks were the top 40 picks, and largely two specific top 5-7 picks.

Who cares who did it. It’s not that impressive and the “but drafting” low bar excuse sucks and carries little merit.

Name a time in franchise history where we have had a better drafting stretch than the last 6 years or so. In fact, name 10 teams in the last 15 years who have had a better 6 year drafting history.

Look, there are legitimate gripes to have with Benning, but this board is the boy who cried wolf when everything he does well is hand waved away, and every benign bit of info is used to impugn him based on hypotheticals.

And the first point is absolutely not a strawman.

If you get 3 prospects from one draft who are either established stars, or still looking promising 4 years later, that's a good draft. Period.

Rathbone has to learn some things defensively, but his assertiveness and skillset with the puck can't be taught. His worst case scenario is still superlative 4th round pick.

DiPietro I'm less certain about, but he's still a decently promising goaltending prospect 4 years later. For him to be your 3rd best after a superstar center, and a promising puck moving D, that's objectively a good draft.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

I'm not wasting an hour of my time chasing links for you. These have all been discussed here and credible media links have been presented in the past.

2014
- Benning (and likely ownership as well) overruled the scouts to take Virtanen. Scouts wanted Nylander or Larkin.
- Benning wanted Bleackley and Hawryluk with the next two picks and when those guys were gone deferred to the scouts to take McCann and Demko

2015
- it sounds like everyone was on the same page with Boeser

2016
- Benning overruled the scouts to take Juolevi. This has even been confirmed by IMac.

2017
- Benning and Brackett wanted Cody Glass. Brackett and his staff wanted Pettersson. Trevor Linden intervened to give the scouts autonomy to make their pick. This was confirmed by Linden on TV.
- Benning badly wanted Kole Lind, as seen in video.

2018
- everyone wanted Hughes

2019
- Benning wanted Broberg, let Brackett take Podkolzin when Broberg was gone. Benning overruled Brackett to take Hoglander.

So much of this is conjecture based on particular interpretations of singular blog posts.

Much of this info has contradictory reports also in the media.

Like I said, you can be dismissive and tell me you aren't 'going to waste an hour', but much of your claims are based on alleged leaks to people who have not really shown themselves to be credible. Like the supposed offer by the Sharks of 9th overall for Ryan Miller in 2015 based on a single article on Canucksarmy, that's often taken as gospel around here.

So if you want to be taken seriously, show a source.

 

[Diogenes92]

So much of this is conjecture based on particular interpretations of singular blog posts.

Much of this info has contradictory reports also in the media.

Like I said, you can be dismissive and tell me you aren't 'going to waste an hour', but much of your claims are based on alleged leaks to people who have not really shown themselves to be credible. Like the supposed offer by the Sharks of 9th overall for Ryan Miller in 2015 based on a single article on Canucksarmy, that's often taken as gospel around here.

So if you want to be taken seriously, show a source.

Can you provide sources for your own claims? Just curious.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

Can you provide sources for your own claims? Just curious.

That's a disingenuous request. Someone who makes a point is obligated to back it up.

A cursory search finds Linden commenting on the draft pick at the time:

"Jake was a guy that for us was just a no-brainer," Linden said. "He's a guy that's physical, he's got a great shot, he's a Western Canadian kid excited for the opportunity to play with us. That's great."

From Georgia Strait:

https://www.straight.com/blogra/675431/videos-jim-benning-and-trevor-linden-sum-canucks-draft-picks


Now, I get that you can say he's toeing the company line, or make a 'hurr durr Bannign iz DUM XD" joke about how 'no brainer is perfect for Banngn lolz'.

But that quote, and I took one second and read the 1st listing that stood out to me, isn't exactly a 'hedging his bets' type of quote.

"As a group, he's the guy we liked the best". Would be something you could later dissect as being technically true, with him perhaps showing a united front about a pick he didn't like.

"Just a no brainer", yeah, really sounds like he was dragged kicking and screaming towards that pick.

For the record, I hated the pick at the time, I'm not defending it. But putting it all on Benning and absolving Linden is nonsense.

 

[Diogenes92]

That's a disingenuous request. Someone who makes a point is obligated to back it up.

A cursory search finds Linden commenting on the draft pick at the time:

"Jake was a guy that for us was just a no-brainer," Linden said. "He's a guy that's physical, he's got a great shot, he's a Western Canadian kid excited for the opportunity to play with us. That's great."

From Georgia Strait:

https://www.straight.com/blogra/675431/videos-jim-benning-and-trevor-linden-sum-canucks-draft-picks


Now, I get that you can say he's toeing the company line, or make a 'hurr durr Bannign iz DUM XD" joke about how 'no brainer is perfect for Banngn lolz'.

But that quote, and I took one second and read the 1st listing that stood out to me, isn't exactly a 'hedging his bets' type of quote.

"As a group, he's the guy we liked the best". Would be something you could later dissect as being technically true, with him perhaps showing a united front about a pick he didn't like.

"Just a no brainer", yeah, really sounds like he was dragged kicking and screaming towards that pick.

For the record, I hated the pick at the time, I'm not defending it. But putting it all on Benning and absolving Linden is nonsense.

I always felt that the Virtanen pick was an Aquilini influenced move, personally. Benning being a new GM and Jake being a Lower Mainland boy.

 

[alternate]

Debating whose pick a certain player was is such microanalysis. Scouts and GMs have players they like,and players they like less. This isn't new nor unique to Benning era Canucks.

Really, all that matters is whether a GM builds a contender. Doesn't matter if he never hits on a pick in 10 years if the team is competitive.

Obviously Benning hasn't done that yet. But I don't think it's fair to say Benning has been on a 7 year rebuild. It was 100% clear the mandate was to try to contend until the wheels fell off the Sedins. I agreed with that decision then, and still do.

Sedins retired in 2018. In the cap era, that's not a long turn around, especially without a top2 pick. It certainly hasn't always been pretty, but right now the core looks potentially great.

Curious what a season has to look like to change some minds on Benning?

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

I always felt that the Virtanen pick was an Aquilini influenced move, personally. Benning being a new GM and Jake being a Lower Mainland boy.

I felt the same.

 

[Three On Zero]

Projected line ups for tonight? Blender still out rather than trying to actually build team chemistry?

 

[Tryamkin]

If Jim Benning’s mandate was to compete with the Sedins and he followed that up with being the worst team in the NHL over a 3 year stretch that isn’t exactly a ringing endorsement on his ability to construct a hockey team.

 

[Tryamkin]

Name a time in franchise history where we have had a better drafting stretch than the last 6 years or so. In fact, name 10 teams in the last 15 years who have had a better 6 year drafting history.

Look, there are legitimate gripes to have with Benning, but this board is the boy who cried wolf when everything he does well is hand waved away, and every benign bit of info is used to impugn him based on hypotheticals.

And the first point is absolutely not a strawman.

If you get 3 prospects from one draft who are either established stars, or still looking promising 4 years later, that's a good draft. Period.

Rathbone has to learn some things defensively, but his assertiveness and skillset with the puck can't be taught. His worst case scenario is still superlative 4th round pick.

DiPietro I'm less certain about, but he's still a decently promising goaltending prospect 4 years later. For him to be your 3rd best after a superstar center, and a promising puck moving D, that's objectively a good draft.

If you go through most NHL teams here are their best 7 year draft stretches over the past 2 decades and change.

Chicago - Toews, Kane, Byfuglien, Seabrook, Versteeg, Keith etc
Tampa - Stamkos, Point, Kucherov, Vasilevsky, Palat, Hedman etc
LA - Brown, Kopitar, Doughty, Quick, Toffoli, Martinez, Voynov Simmons, Schenn etc
Florida Barkov, Huberdeau, Ekblad, Weegar, Trocheck
Colorado - Mackinnon, Landeskog, Rantanen, Makar, Byram
Boston Seguin, Hamilton, Pastarnak, McAvoy, Carlo also Bergeron, Marchand, Lucic, Kessel, Krejci
Buffalo Eichel, Dahlin, Reinhart, Ristolainen, Olofsson
Anaheim - Perry, Getzlaf, Ryan, Lupul, Smid, Bryzgalov
Carolina - Slavin, Aho, Pesce, Svechnikov, Elias Lindholm, Hanifin
Oilers- McDavid, Nurse, Draisaitl, RNH, Hall, Klefbom
Minny - Gaborik, Burns, Mikko Koivu, PM Bouchard
MTL - Price, Subban, McDonagh, Gallagher, Pacioretty
NSH - Ryan Suter, Shea Weber, Josi, Rinne, Radulov
Islanders - Tavares, Devon Toews, Nelson, Pulock, Mayfield, Barzal, Pelech
Ottawa - Erik Karlsson, Mike Hoffman, Mika Zibanejad, Mark Stone, Jakub Silfverberg
Philly - Sharp, Richards, Carter, Pitkanen, Giroux
Pittsburgh - Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, Goligoski, Staal, Muzzin, Letang
San Jose Pavelski, Vlasic, Couture, Setoguchi,
Bonino, Braun
St. Louis - Taranseko, Pietrangelo, Schwartz, Parayko, Perron, Binnington
Toronto - Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Riley, Conor Brown
Vancouver - Sedin, Sedin, Kesler, Edler, Schneider, Bieksa
Washington - Ovechkin, Backstrom, Green, Kuznetsov, John Carlson, Orlov
Winnipeg- Scheffelie, Helly, Trouba, Morrisey, Ehlers, Conor, Laine
Atlanta Kovalchuk, Heatley, Enstrom, Coburn, Lehntonen, Little,

I skipped over the teams with young recently drafted cores as time will tell wirj them but uh there’s really not a ton of cores here that their respective teams would have traded for Hughes, Boeser, PetterssonDemko, Hoglander. This notion that this is some sort of super drafter is insane when you look at what literally every team in the leahue did in stretches where they also had an influx of top 10 picks

 

[4Twenty]

All the hits are top 40-50 picks. Top 10 in the first and second round.

That’s where players come from.

Thinking it’s because of some great scouting or GM’ing is just simpleton stuff.

 

[Catamarca Livin]

All the hits are top 40-50 picks. Top 10 in the first and second round.

That’s where players come from.

Thinking it’s because of some great scouting or GM’ing is just simpleton stuff.

So it is just good luck to draft Hughes and Petterson and Hughes as well as just being bad luck to draft Virtanen and Juolevi. Also all good players come from top 10. If this is true why bother with scouts at all? Luck plays a part, development plays a part. and yes drafting the right player plays a part. I think there needs to be credit for non slamdunk picks. Petterson and Hughes were not sure things. Hoglander at 40 is a huge win especially if Podz hits. They seem to be getting better results. 17, 18, 19 were 3 good drafts which might end up being great drafts.

 

[4Twenty]

So it is just good luck to draft Hughes and Petterson and Hughes as well as just being bad luck to draft Virtanen and Juolevi. Also all good players come from top 10. If this is true why bother with scouts at all? Luck plays a part, development plays a part. and yes drafting the right player plays a part. I think there needs to be credit for non slamdunk picks. Petterson and Hughes were not sure things. Hoglander at 40 is a huge win especially if Podz hits. They seem to be getting better results. 17, 18, 19 were 3 good drafts which might end up being great drafts.

You’re adding stuff to what I said. That’s disingenuous.

You can credit whoever you like, but my point was clear.

Its not necessary to attempt to twist what I’ve said.

 

[Catamarca Livin]

Looking at our draft DB the Canucks may not have a player in the nhl from 2007 to 2012 drafts this season. Some players played 100 games but none made a difference. 2013 produced Horvat 2014 Demko 2015 Boeser 2016 no-one, 2017 Petterson 2018 Hughes 2019 Hoglander. So in 7 drafts pre Benning we got Horvat. In the 7 drafts since we got 6 players and counting who have played top 6 , starting goalie or top pairing roles. This explains why we sucked 2016 to 2019 and why there is now hope. You cannot go 6 drafts empty and be good especially when you are not trading your 1st round picks for good players. We missed and we suffered as a result. At least now we are hitting more often so there is some hope.

 

[alternate]

If Jim Benning’s mandate was to compete with the Sedins and he followed that up with being the worst team in the NHL over a 3 year stretch that isn’t exactly a ringing endorsement on his ability to construct a hockey team.

If you didn't realize there was going to be some down years, you haven't been paying attention to salary cap era NHL.

 

[lennor]

Looking at our draft DB the Canucks may not have a player in the nhl from 2007 to 2012 drafts this season. Some players played 100 games but none made a difference. 2013 produced Horvat 2014 Demko 2015 Boeser 2016 no-one, 2017 Petterson 2018 Hughes 2019 Hoglander. So in 7 drafts pre Benning we got Horvat. In the 7 drafts since we got 6 players and counting who have played top 6 , starting goalie or top pairing roles. This explains why we sucked 2016 to 2019 and why there is now hope. You cannot go 6 drafts empty and be good especially when you are not trading your 1st round picks for good players. We missed and we suffered as a result. At least now we are hitting more often so there is some hope.

Just because the Canucks have had a terrible draft record pre Benning doesn’t mean what Benning has done has been a great job. He found 1-2 players for the majority of the drafts. That should be bare minimum. Entire fan base has Stockholm syndrome.

 

[Aqualung]

Gone a bit off topic no?

 

[Just A Bit Outside]

Gone a bit off topic no?

I think at this point everyone has forgotten about the topic.

So…

How about that Squid Game?

 

[FOurteenS inCisOr]

Obviously, you haven't been brought up to date... Anything good Benning has done is.. a) a fluke , b) somebody else's doing c) the completely obvious...

and apparently, according to some..He's the worst GM in modern NHL history.

Rubbish.

Milbury is 1. No need for the hyperbole.

Benning is solidly 2.

 

[FOurteenS inCisOr]

Name a time in franchise history where we have had a better drafting stretch than the last 6 years or so. In fact, name 10 teams in the last 15 years who have had a better 6 year drafting history.

Look, there are legitimate gripes to have with Benning, but this board is the boy who cried wolf when everything he does well is hand waved away, and every benign bit of info is used to impugn him based on hypotheticals.

And the first point is absolutely not a strawman.

If you get 3 prospects from one draft who are either established stars, or still looking promising 4 years later, that's a good draft. Period.

Rathbone has to learn some things defensively, but his assertiveness and skillset with the puck can't be taught. His worst case scenario is still superlative 4th round pick.

DiPietro I'm less certain about, but he's still a decently promising goaltending prospect 4 years later. For him to be your 3rd best after a superstar center, and a promising puck moving D, that's objectively a good draft.

Name a time in franchise history where we have had a consistent string of top 10 picks due to managerial incompetence—other than the 70s/80s when scouting and drafting was a bunch of cavemen throwing rocks a pictures on a wall—shitty teams get better picks, which have a much higher likelihood of success.

Benning absolutely whiffed on a few gimmes as well.

You’d better hope he hits on a few when he’s drafting that early and getting more chances than most.

 

[Melvin]

If you go through most NHL teams here are their best 7 year draft stretches over the past 2 decades and change.

Chicago - Toews, Kane, Byfuglien, Seabrook, Versteeg, Keith etc
Tampa - Stamkos, Point, Kucherov, Vasilevsky, Palat, Hedman etc
LA - Brown, Kopitar, Doughty, Quick, Toffoli, Martinez, Voynov Simmons, Schenn etc
Florida Barkov, Huberdeau, Ekblad, Weegar, Trocheck
Colorado - Mackinnon, Landeskog, Rantanen, Makar, Byram
Boston Seguin, Hamilton, Pastarnak, McAvoy, Carlo also Bergeron, Marchand, Lucic, Kessel, Krejci
Buffalo Eichel, Dahlin, Reinhart, Ristolainen, Olofsson
Anaheim - Perry, Getzlaf, Ryan, Lupul, Smid, Bryzgalov
Carolina - Slavin, Aho, Pesce, Svechnikov, Elias Lindholm, Hanifin
Oilers- McDavid, Nurse, Draisaitl, RNH, Hall, Klefbom
Minny - Gaborik, Burns, Mikko Koivu, PM Bouchard
MTL - Price, Subban, McDonagh, Gallagher, Pacioretty
NSH - Ryan Suter, Shea Weber, Josi, Rinne, Radulov
Islanders - Tavares, Devon Toews, Nelson, Pulock, Mayfield, Barzal, Pelech
Ottawa - Erik Karlsson, Mike Hoffman, Mika Zibanejad, Mark Stone, Jakub Silfverberg
Philly - Sharp, Richards, Carter, Pitkanen, Giroux
Pittsburgh - Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, Goligoski, Staal, Muzzin, Letang
San Jose Pavelski, Vlasic, Couture, Setoguchi,
Bonino, Braun
St. Louis - Taranseko, Pietrangelo, Schwartz, Parayko, Perron, Binnington
Toronto - Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Riley, Conor Brown
Vancouver - Sedin, Sedin, Kesler, Edler, Schneider, Bieksa
Washington - Ovechkin, Backstrom, Green, Kuznetsov, John Carlson, Orlov
Winnipeg- Scheffelie, Helly, Trouba, Morrisey, Ehlers, Conor, Laine
Atlanta Kovalchuk, Heatley, Enstrom, Coburn, Lehntonen, Little,

I skipped over the teams with young recently drafted cores as time will tell wirj them but uh there’s really not a ton of cores here that their respective teams would have traded for Hughes, Boeser, PetterssonDemko, Hoglander. This notion that this is some sort of super drafter is insane when you look at what literally every team in the leahue did in stretches where they also had an influx of top 10 picks

wait, other teams exist? Hold on.

 

[4Twenty]

Gone a bit off topic no?

These folks love the but drafting portion of the show even though the pick location is the simplest explanation for the “success”.

 

[4Twenty]

Weisbrod refusing to go to the stage for the Pettersson pick is all I need.

Thankfully the Canucks have had so many high picks over the past 8 offseasons so they can afford to keep tossing 1sts and 2nds into deals.

The draft “success” is easily explained by pick location and it’s not like they are batting even .500 in that top 40/50 range.