The 2017 NBA Finals Thread: Golden State vs Cleveland

[Jersey Fresh]

It's two completely different mentalities. One guy did what he could to beat the best, and actually achieve something.

The other has the losers mentality of "beating them is too hard, so I'll just hop along for the ride." No challenge, not pushing himself- if Durant had sat on the bench the whole series they likely would still have won.

 

[Addison Rae]

I get it. They both left lesser teams to join better teams to improve their odds at winning multiple rings. Only difference is KD left a team that beat him in a tightly contested series.

You can't be a Lebron fan and hate on KD's decision at the same time. The two go hand in hand.

I outlined my points, you're clearly not comprehending them.

Suggesting that they both left lesser teams to join better ones is an absurd way to lump them in with eachother. The fact that you actually believe this garbage shows that you clearly don't understand the points I made.

Lebron left a team that lost 63 games without him, KD left a team that won ~50 without him. The fact that you think their situations are anywhere close to similar show you aren't fit to take place in such a discussion.

 

[sjsharks92]

I outlined my points, you're clearly not comprehending them.

Suggesting that they both left lesser teams to join better ones is an absurd way to lump them in with eachother. The fact that you actually believe this garbage shows that you clearly don't understand the points I made.

Lebron left a team that lost 63 games without him, KD left a team that won ~50 without him. The fact that you think their situations are anywhere close to similar show you aren't fit to take place in such a discussion.

No, what it shows is I have a differing opinion on the matter than yourself and one that is pretty commonly held at that.

 

[sjsharks92]

Maybe the fairest point of the discussion either way

Fair enough. But you should understand that that belief isn't founded on anything we saw in the 2017 Finals.

 

[Addison Rae]

No, what it shows is I have a differing opinion on the matter than yourself and one that is pretty commonly held at that.

Huh? Your opinion is pretty common, that's outrageous.

Your opinion is ridiculous, you're clearly ignoring actual facts and just spewing ridiculous narratives to lump the two situations together.

Comparing the 2009/2010 Cavs to the 2015/2016 Thunder is absolutely absurd. If you actually constructed a compelling argument I would just respectfully disagree but what you're spewing is asinine.

 

[Halladay]

Kerr is truly a great coach.

 

[WTFetus]

Sooo much salt here.
Who cares what their teams were like. KD and LeBron both left their teams to create "super teams". They both had the right to do so.

Hating Durant for making a smart career move is ridiculous. If you listen to the comments he made all season, he is a lot happier and gets along with his teammates a lot better than he did in OKC.

 

[sjsharks92]

Sooo much salt here.
Who cares what their teams were like. KD and LeBron both left their teams to create "super teams". They both had the right to do so.

Hating Durant for making a smart career move is ridiculous. If you listen to the comments he made all season, he is a lot happier and gets along with his teammates a lot better than he did in OKC.

Bingo was his name-o

 

[sjsharks92]

Kerr is truly a great coach.

Not disagreeing, but I honestly think Brown deserves more credit and I'm not even saying that because of the 13-0 run he got them on. Brown is the one who implored Kerr to play the death lineup more and stagger KD and Steph's minutes in game 5 a bit. Both were exactly the right thing to do.

 

[Power Man]

Completely forgot about the NBA awards tbh
Lmao if RW wins it aftee KD rang tbh, WTF

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

Hopefully this stops the myth LeBron is better then Jordan.

He isn't. And never ever will be. And I like LeBron.

 

[sjsharks92]

Hopefully this stops the myth LeBron is better then Jordan.

He isn't. And never ever will be. And I like LeBron.

The Chicago sports homer likes Lebron but also thinks this should stop the myth he'll ever be better than MJ. Seems legit.

Lebron passed MJ last year if you ask me. Lebron losing in the Finals to a historically dominant team isn't affecting his legacy in the slightest. At this point Lebron is just building upon his lead in my opinion.

 

[darko]

Lol Bron didn't go past MJ.

 

[sjsharks92]

Lol Bron didn't go past MJ.

And that's completely fair for you to think.

By the end of Lebron's career though I suspect it will be hard to deny him the title of GOAT. In my eyes he's already there.

I just can't take that guy's opinion seriously.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

The Chicago sports homer likes Lebron but also thinks this should stop the myth he'll ever be better than MJ. Seems legit.

Lebron passed MJ last year if you ask me. Lebron losing in the Finals to a historically dominant team isn't affecting his legacy in the slightest. At this point Lebron is just building upon his lead in my opinion.

That's your opinion.

I'll take 6-0 over 3-5 when it matters every day, twice on Sunday, and accept Kwame Brown was just a misunderstood seven footer on top.

LeBron put the team on his back, and failed. Jordan came thru each and every time in the finals. No comparison. No excuses. Five finals losses is a horrible legacy to have to live with when you are trying to place yourself on the same level as the ultimate competitor in Jordan.

That's my opinion.

 

[bluesfan94]

That's your opinion.

I'll take 6-0 over 3-5 when it matters every day, twice on Sunday, and accept Kwame Brown was just a misunderstood seven footer on top.

LeBron put the team on his back, and failed. Jordan came thru each and every time in the finals. No comparison. No excuses. Five finals losses is a horrible legacy to have to live with when you are trying to place yourself on the same level as the ultimate competitor in Jordan.

That's my opinion.

The counter is that LeBron got to the Finals more than Jordan so Jordan wasn't as good. I wouldn't make that argument because I think, outside of the few Celtics years, the East has been very weak recently and that's helped LeBron whereas Jordan had a tougher path just to get to the Finals.

 

[Morozov]

MJ is the GOAT but the whole 6-0 argument is so stupid. It always "matters" things don't only start mattering in the finals.

MJ gets a pass from the people who make this argument for losing to the Magic while LeBron gets punished for dragging a horrible Cavs team to the finals which they had no place participating in. Had LeBrons first Cavs not made the finals, which would have been entirely reasonable, then suddenly his finals resume would be better because there'd be one less loss that people actually look at. It makes no sense to punish people for getting further and ignoring when teams come up short.

Now this season he will be punished, while averaging a triple double in the finals.

Fact is LeBron has been on the favorite team in only two finals appearances. Admittedly one of these they blew it, and that is the only blight on his record.

At the end of the day, the fact that the argument the LeBron haters need to fall back on is that he isn't better than MJ is testament to his greatness in itself. How shameful that he is second to the greatest to ever play the game and one of the greatest athletes of all time period.

No other player is measured on this level, no other player would average a triple double in the finals and be criticised, for that to even be possible someone else would need to even be capable of making that achievement.

Fact is LeBron lost to a much better team, the Cavs were meant to lose this series, and LeBron still performed at a historical level. There's no damage to LeBrons legacy here.

 

[Morozov]

And I don't fault KD at all for what he did. He was a FREE agent, free to do what he wanted. Non stop people judge guys on rings, so he makes the best decision to get one, then people complain he didn't "do it right" well they don't give rings for perceived "rightness" they give them to the winners. The point of this game is to win, they won, he won, and he did an amazing job in the process. Well done to him. Nobody in that lockeroom is sitting there feeling bad because they didn't meet some people's criteria. The criteria for winning a ring is winning four games in the finals, the criteria was met.

Why suddenly doing all you can to win is a bad thing I have no idea.

 

[KallioWeHardlyKnewYe]

The two differences are clear as day.

KD joined the team that beat him when he up 3-1 on them, a team that won the chip without him a team that was 73/9 without him. He not only joined that team he left arguably the most talented roster in the league to do it.

Lebron left a team that won 19 games without him, meaning he had absolutely zero supporting cast. If Lebron had players equal to Westbrook, Ibaka and Adams in his starting 5 in Cleveland he doesn't leave its that simple. He also didn't join the team that beat him, which was the Celtics. He joined forces with other players to beat them.

The fact that people can't comprehend this is unbelievable. If Kevin Durant left a team with no supporting cast and joined someone like Jimmy Butler in Chicago while also recruited a guy like Cousins, do you think people would dislike his move nearly as much? Clearly not, how can you not comprehend the difference between doing that and joining a 73-9 team.

First, you have to drop this OKC being the most talented roster in the league thing. That's ridiculous. KD and Russ are stellar, obviously. Beyond that? Meh. But OKC was near elite BECAUSE of KD. That's the same damn point you make about LeBron. Where he goes, success follows and the team he left is noticeably a worse because of his absence. Again, you're being hypocritical. Is OKC post KD better than Cleveland or Miami post-Lebron? Yes they are. Are those three teams winning titles without their superstar? No. So what's the point?

But while we're at it, I'll indulge you. If OKC was the most talented roster then wouldn't joining Golden State be a step back in your mind? Was he on the best team or did he join the best team? You seem to want it both ways.

Now on to the next point, you're literally arguing that it's only ok to build a superteam if all or most of those pieces come together at the SAME time. But having most of the team together and THEN adding one piece is acceptable.

Boston is ok because Garnet and Allen joined Pierce and Rondo at the same time.
Miami is ok because LeBron and Bosh joined Wade at the same time.
Cleveland is ok because LeBron and Love joined Irving at the same time.
Golden State is not ok because Curry, Green and Thompson were already together and THEN Durant arrived.


I don't play this "oh it's ok to move to this team, this team and this team, but it's NOT ok to move to this team or that team game."

The point is to WIN. That's the standard these teams and players are judged by. It's not to win in a certain way. It's to win. Period. KD would get no points for nobility if he stayed in OKC and never won. In fact, there would be plenty who would criticize him if that's how it played out.

A bunch of weird fluky factors just so happened to make it possible for KD to join the 73-9 Warriors. He would've been a fool to make any other choice. Oh wait, the best or second best team in the league can also pay me what I'm worth?

Let's also remember the Warriors LOST last year's finals. So cite that regular season record as much as you want, but a lot of good that did them at the end of the day. The Warriors blowing a 3-1 lead became a joke. This was a player and a team coming off seasons of disappointment -- not domination, not triumph.

You know why? Because the trophy is all that matters.

 

[le_sean]

Kevin Love ****ing sucks.

 

[sjsharks92]

MJ had a tougher path GETTING to the Finals than Lebron has had, but Lebron has faced substantially tougher competition in the Finals than MJ ever did.

At the end of Lebron's career when he holds the playoff and Finals records for points, assists and steals and is top 5 in rebounds and top 10 in blocks it's going to be comical to hear people reason as to how he still isn't the greatest ever. He will be well ahead of Jordan in all 5 of those categories. When we look back and see he made 9-13 Finals, at least 7 of which came consecutively, I'm not going to give a damn what his record is in those Finals if he keeps running up against a team as incredible as the Warriors. The last 4 teams Lebron has faced in the Finals (14 Spurs, 15-17 Warriors) are better than any team MJ ever had to face in the Finals.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

BS

Those Jazz and Sonic teams were just as good as teams Lebron has faced

96-98 Bulls were more impressive to me then 91-93 Bulls

 

[sjsharks92]

BS

Those Jazz and Sonic teams were just as good as teams Lebron has faced

EDIT: No, they weren't. The Jazz teams were really good but I'd never take them over the Warriors, perhaps the 14 Spurs though.

The following is all from a recent ESPN Inisder article. Regardless of what you think of ESPN or their content I think these numbers are intriguing.

Below is a list of all the Finals opponents of MJ and Lebron. It includes their ELO score and their all-time ELO ranking amongst Finals teams. While ELO is of course not the end all be all, it's designed to incorporate a ridiculously wide range of factors to rank teams across eras. It's a flawed stat as well, (you'll notice the 98 Jazz rank 6th which is higher than the 98 Bulls) but overall does a good job of stacking up teams in general. I'm not so much focused on the individual scores here, but I'd definitely note that Lebron's opponents are higher up on this list than MJs. In other words, I'm not here to argue about whether you think the 15-17 Warriors are the 3 greatest teams of all-time. This stat is susceptible to screwy things on an individual year basis. But incorporating 13 different teams/years it does a good job.

Worth noting: the 97 Bulls are 4th at 1775 and the 17 Cavs are 5th at 1767

2017 Warriors 1,850 1
2015 Warriors 1,802 2
2016 Warriors 1,790 3
1998 Jazz 1,761 6
1997 Jazz 1,751 12
2014 Spurs 1,730 22
1991 Lakers 1,723 24
2011 Mavericks 1,717 28
2013 Spurs 1,711 30
2012 Thunder 1,711 31
2007 Spurs 1,705 35
1992 Blazers 1,702 38
1996 Sonics 1,695 45
1993 Suns 1,634 83

The article points out that based upon this Lebron has faced 8 of the 35 best Finals teams of all-time (out of 134 teams). The mean team Lebron has faced ranks 19th on this list while Jordan's mean opponent would rank 36th. In other words, the worst team Lebron has faced in the Finals (the 07 Spurs) would rank better than MJ's average opponent. And in 2007 when Lebron lost to that Spurs team, he was 22 years old and had Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Larry Hughes as the 2nd and 3rd best players on his team.

If you care to read up on how ELO is calculated, here you go: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-we-calculate-nba-elo-ratings/

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Jordan had competition in the east. LeBron hasn't. Not really fair to fault Jordan for having actual teams to beat to get to the finals.

 

[sjsharks92]

Jordan had competition in the east. LeBron hasn't. Not really fair to fault Jordan for having actual teams to beat to get to the finals.

I agree. That's not what I'm doing. Just pointing out that when both reached the Finals, Lebron has been up against stiffer competition. Equally unfair to fault Lebron for that.