The 2017 NBA Finals Thread: Golden State vs Cleveland

[Quid Pro Clowe]

To no one's surprise, the Golden State Warriors have voted unanimously to skip their visit to the White House.

Good.

 

[sjsharks92]

It is absolutely not the same thing Kevin Durant did, do people just forget about the aspect of leaving a team that was up 3-1 on the defending champions, the best regular season team of all time. Blowing the 3-1 lead and then joining that team a month later?

Kevin Durant left arguably the most talented roster in the league to join the team that beat him, the team that won a chip without him, the team that won the most games in NBA history without him.

Lebron James left two teams that missed the playoffs without him, the reason Lebron James teams are "superteams" are because he's on them. His Miami "superteam" went from going to 4 straight finals with him to not making the playoffs without him. His original Cleveland team went from winning 60 games with him to not even winning 20 without him.

How does this Cleveland "super team" do without Lebron? They probably go from 3 straight finals and beating the best regular season team ever for a chip to competing for a playoff spot.

Regardless of the results of Cleveland and Miami before and after Lebron left, I think the point is pretty clearly that Lebron joining up with his pals to play was a huge part of what triggered the "Super Team" era.

I agree that the Miami and Cleveland teams that Lebron joined were not as good as this Warriors team already was without KD. But I think that's sort of irrelevant in this argument. The super team era really began with Pierce, KG, and Allen aligning in Boston, however that was just shrewd front office management. With Lebron and his pals in Miami it was truly an effort orchestrated by the 3 of them to join up and win "not 1, not 2, not 3, etc" titles.

Really the only difference between their situations is KD joining the team that beat him and to that I'd say there are a plethora of reasons for KD to split from OKC to the Bay Area besides just quality of team (which was no doubt a part of his decision making).

 

[MarkStone]

Lebron James is just an absolute beast. He's the greatest of all time in my opinion.

What a year for the Warriors. KD and Steph put on a show the NBA hasn't seen since Shaq and Kobe.

You wanna argue this Warriors team isn't the greatest ever, that's fine. But there's not a team in the history of this sport that would beat them handily. Frankly I'd take this team over any other team in history based on what we've seen them do and talent alone. 4 future Hall of Famers all in the midst of their primes? Yea that's never happened before.

After a year of 3-1 jokes, hearing KD get called a snake, hearing about how Steph is somehow overrated, Draymond's a donkey, etc etc, this title is just so, so sweet.

Before this year I had the 86 Celtics as my 1A and 96 Bulls as 1B (I think the 86 team was ultimately superior but they would probably exchange victories on most occasions due to Jordan) but I think this Golden State team certainly joins those two to form a triumvirate of all time great teams. Every other great team in NBA history is still in a second tier below those three.

 

[Voight]

Happy GSW won.

I was pissed when KD left OKC to sign with them, especially after they beat us in the WCF last year. But I understood why he did it,and read lots of articles on it. Everyone is so ring-obessed these days they consider you meh if you don't have one - a far cry from the 90s where Barkley, Malone, Stockton and Reggie didn't win **** but were still admired. KD was also frustrated that everyone kind of forgot about him when he was hurt in 2015 and wanted to make a statement. LeBron did the same thing more or less, sure he "formed his own super team" but that was only because he was already best friends with D-Wade and Bosh and they planned for them all to be free agents at the same time.

Now the hope is KD comes back in the summer of 2019 or sooner, as thats the "summer of change" for the Warriors. Ultimately I think he will as he loves Oklahoma City, but we will see. Best part about the series was that HE was driving the bus, he wasn't some second fiddle.

Also.... who remembers "not 4, not, 5, not 6....."

 

[Voight]

Honestly his Finals record is exactly what it should be. The only series he lost he should have won was the Dallas series. And he won last year's series that he really shouldn't have won.

Not with the way he played.

I love Lebron James and will defend him on a lot of fronts but he 100% was building a superteam/Big 3 (whatever we want to call them) in Cleveland.

And you're flat wrong about the odds. The Cavs were THE favorite heading into that season:

LeBron did (twice) the same thing everybody is *****ing about with Golden State. The Warriors just did it better. It's hypocritical to say otherwise.

LeBron didn't move to Cleveland because he has a big heart and wanted to help his home region and maybe, just maybe good basketball would happen. He moved there because he knew there were going to be two younger, talented pieces in place (Pretty open secret the Love deal was in the works) that put him in better position than staying in Miami. I applaud him for it. It was smart. It's also, at its heart, the same thing Kevin Durant did.

Agree 100%. Bob Myers is just so damn good a GM he did it better. People forget - he took a huge gamble giving Curry 4 years/11 million per year, everyone thought his ankles would give out and he'd be done. He hired Steve Kerr who had zero coaching experience end result is two championships and his core three players all becoming much better players. When KD came available, he knew he could squeeze him in while keeping his bench and core intact.

As for the second part, Brian Windhorst (LeBrons biggest fan in the media) even confirmed your post in his new book. LeBron told CLE he would come back only if they acquired Love, Melo or Aldridge. he saw they had a top young PG and new the team wasn't going anywhere near the finals unless he got another star player. At that point he had two rings and was content with living in Miami while raising his kids there, even if the team was going to get worse and worse.

I like Ty Lue as a person. He seems like a good dude. But holy ****, his coaching in this series was just baffling. Lue's rotations were just god-awful.

JR was in the zone tonight. He had 25 points and yet for some reason they just stopped feeding him the ball. Deron Williams on the other hand is straight trash.

Meanwhile, Kevin Love had as many points as Patrick McCaw tonight (6). Just pathetic.

CLE is never going to get a good coach because LeBron is basically co-head coach. So they are stuck hiring the Lue's of the world, not to diss him but he's not Popovich or Kerr.

 

[weastern bias]

I haven't been around here in a while but I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not

No sarcasm, Curry's not clutch

He frustrates me to no end because he's so hyper talented and skilled but he turns his brain off way too often and makes dumbass plays that hurt his team, he was turnover city in Game 2 especially

 

[Stylizer1]

Definition of a super team who won a championship

Boston - Garnett, pierce, Allen, Rondo
Miami - Bosh, Lebron, Wade, Allen
Cleveland - Lebron, Love, Irving
G.S. - Curry, Thompson, Green, Durant

Definition of none super teams who won Championships

S.A. - Duncan, Parker, Leonard, Ginobili
G.S. - Curry, Thompson, Green

 

[bambamcam4ever]

These numbers are stupid for multiple reasons:

1) You'd assume they'd use LeBron's cap space somewhere else and therefore be better.
2) The system is built around LeBron. You'd assume they'd play differently and emphasize Irving and Love.
3) Related to both, you've shoving a backup in and making him play starter's minutes. Players are in different roles.
4) They've never really played multiple games in a row without LeBron so they don't have any sense of chemistry. That would change.
5) Small sample size.

1) Yes, they probably would be able to add an additional player.
2) Lebron is the system as his presence and passing ability allows his teammates to be that much more effective. How many times did teams led by Irving and Love reach the playoffs without Lebron? Hint: it's zero
3) Related to #1.
4) Cavs played 8 games in a row without Lebron in 14-15. They went 1-7 and didn't show any improvement over time.
5) They are 4-23 without Lebron over the last 3 seasons. That is a third of a season and on pace for 12 wins.

When everything is pointing toward the fact that Lebron lifts his team from a borderline playoff team at the very, very best to a top 2 team in the league, maybe it's reasonable to consider that as a possibility.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

No sarcasm, Curry's not clutch

He frustrates me to no end because he's so hyper talented and skilled but he turns his brain off way too often and makes dumbass plays that hurt his team, he was turnover city in Game 2 especially

Curry is incredibly skilled, but just doesn't process the game that well. As someone who often roots against GS, I enjoy it when he chucks shots from 70 feet when there are still 3 seconds left in the quarter.

 

[EpochLink]

Lebron in 2011 was god awful from game 3 til the final game 6. He flat out disappeared in the forth quarter and it was justly criticized. They should've won that series..

It was over when Jason Terry shot that dagger 3 in game 5.

 

[Addison Rae]

Regardless of the results of Cleveland and Miami before and after Lebron left, I think the point is pretty clearly that Lebron joining up with his pals to play was a huge part of what triggered the "Super Team" era.

I agree that the Miami and Cleveland teams that Lebron joined were not as good as this Warriors team already was without KD. But I think that's sort of irrelevant in this argument. The super team era really began with Pierce, KG, and Allen aligning in Boston, however that was just shrewd front office management. With Lebron and his pals in Miami it was truly an effort orchestrated by the 3 of them to join up and win "not 1, not 2, not 3, etc" titles.

Really the only difference between their situations is KD joining the team that beat him and to that I'd say there are a plethora of reasons for KD to split from OKC to the Bay Area besides just quality of team (which was no doubt a part of his decision making).

The two differences are clear as day.

KD joined the team that beat him when he up 3-1 on them, a team that won the chip without him a team that was 73/9 without him. He not only joined that team he left arguably the most talented roster in the league to do it.

Lebron left a team that won 19 games without him, meaning he had absolutely zero supporting cast. If Lebron had players equal to Westbrook, Ibaka and Adams in his starting 5 in Cleveland he doesn't leave its that simple. He also didn't join the team that beat him, which was the Celtics. He joined forces with other players to beat them.

The fact that people can't comprehend this is unbelievable. If Kevin Durant left a team with no supporting cast and joined someone like Jimmy Butler in Chicago while also recruited a guy like Cousins, do you think people would dislike his move nearly as much? Clearly not, how can you not comprehend the difference between doing that and joining a 73-9 team.

 

[sjsharks92]

No sarcasm, Curry's not clutch

He frustrates me to no end because he's so hyper talented and skilled but he turns his brain off way too often and makes dumbass plays that hurt his team, he was turnover city in Game 2 especially

LOL, well alright then.

Not even gonna get into it with you because there is clearly too much to unpack for you.

How some people can overlook probably the greatest 3 year stretch by a point guard in NBA history astonishes me. "Curry committed 8 turnovers in a blowout win therefore he isn't clutch". How rich.

 

[sjsharks92]

Curry is incredibly skilled, but just doesn't process the game that well. As someone who often roots against GS, I enjoy it when he chucks shots from 70 feet when there are still 3 seconds left in the quarter.

Great point. Curry's shooting from beyond half court with almost no time left on the clock is a major flaw and detriment to his team. If he would utilize those 3 seconds better to get a 50 foot shot instead he'd be so much better off.

 

[sjsharks92]

The two differences are clear as day.

KD joined the team that beat him when he up 3-1 on them, a team that won the chip without him a team that was 73/9 without him. He not only joined that team he left arguably the most talented roster in the league to do it.

Lebron left a team that won 19 games without him, meaning he had absolutely zero supporting cast. If Lebron had players equal to Westbrook, Ibaka and Adams in his starting 5 in Cleveland he doesn't leave its that simple. He also didn't join the team that beat him, which was the Celtics. He joined forces with other players to beat them.

The fact that people can't comprehend this is unbelievable. If Kevin Durant left a team with no supporting cast and joined someone like Jimmy Butler in Chicago while also recruited a guy like Cousins, do you think people would dislike his move nearly as much? Clearly not, how can you not comprehend the difference between doing that and joining a 73-9 team.

I get it. They both left lesser teams to join better teams to improve their odds at winning multiple rings. Only difference is KD left a team that beat him in a tightly contested series.

You can't be a Lebron fan and hate on KD's decision at the same time. The two go hand in hand.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Great point. Curry's shooting from beyond half court with almost no time left on the clock is a major flaw and detriment to his team. If he would utilize those 3 seconds better to get a 50 foot shot instead he'd be so much better off.

It's not wheelchair basketball, 3 seconds is plenty of time. Defending this says enough about your knowledge of the game.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

The two differences are clear as day.

KD joined the team that beat him when he up 3-1 on them, a team that won the chip without him a team that was 73/9 without him. He not only joined that team he left arguably the most talented roster in the league to do it.

Lebron left a team that won 19 games without him, meaning he had absolutely zero supporting cast. If Lebron had players equal to Westbrook, Ibaka and Adams in his starting 5 in Cleveland he doesn't leave its that simple. He also didn't join the team that beat him, which was the Celtics. He joined forces with other players to beat them.

The fact that people can't comprehend this is unbelievable. If Kevin Durant left a team with no supporting cast and joined someone like Jimmy Butler in Chicago while also recruited a guy like Cousins, do you think people would dislike his move nearly as much? Clearly not, how can you not comprehend the difference between doing that and joining a 73-9 team.

It's two completely different mentalities. One guy did what he could to beat the best, and actually achieve something.

The other has the losers mentality of "beating them is too hard, so I'll just hop along for the ride." No challenge, not pushing himself- if Durant had sat on the bench the whole series they likely would still have won.

 

[sjsharks92]

It's not wheelchair basketball, 3 seconds is plenty of time. Defending this says enough about your knowledge of the game.

You're critiquing a player for how he occasionally plays in the final 3 seconds of the quarter as a means of knocking him. This would seem to be the definition of scraping the bottom of the barrel.

 

[sjsharks92]

It's two completely different mentalities. One guy did what he could to beat the best, and actually achieve something.

The other has the losers mentality of "beating them is too hard, so I'll just hop along for the ride." No challenge, not pushing himself- if Durant had sat on the bench the whole series they likely would still have won.

Wrong. Curry isn't clutch, and his 3/4 court heaves with 3 seconds left in the quarter are often poison to his team's success. Curry's lack of ability to process the game meant he had to lean on Durant this series.

 

[weastern bias]

LOL, well alright then.

Not even gonna get into it with you because there is clearly too much to unpack for you.

How some people can overlook probably the greatest 3 year stretch by a point guard in NBA history astonishes me. "Curry committed 8 turnovers in a blowout win therefore he isn't clutch". How rich.

He has been historically great for three straight years in the regular season and through the first three rounds of the playoffs and has been comparatively disappointing in the finals for all three seasons; in the most important games he becomes a lesser version of himself, the definition of not being clutch

But if you'd like to "unpack" for me how clutch it is that his shooting percentage drops and his turnovers explode every year in the finals, I would like to hear your argument

 

[JS19]

Regardless of the results of Cleveland and Miami before and after Lebron left, I think the point is pretty clearly that Lebron joining up with his pals to play was a huge part of what triggered the "Super Team" era.

I agree that the Miami and Cleveland teams that Lebron joined were not as good as this Warriors team already was without KD. But I think that's sort of irrelevant in this argument. The super team era really began with Pierce, KG, and Allen aligning in Boston, however that was just shrewd front office management. With Lebron and his pals in Miami it was truly an effort orchestrated by the 3 of them to join up and win "not 1, not 2, not 3, etc" titles.

Really the only difference between their situations is KD joining the team that beat him and to that I'd say there are a plethora of reasons for KD to split from OKC to the Bay Area besides just quality of team (which was no doubt a part of his decision making).

I wouldn't call Boston the start of superteams. Historically speaking, superteams have always been a thing but there's a clear separation between the old era and today's era: GMs wanted to stack the deck with superstars via trades/smart drafting in order to win, whereas today's era consists of athletes who want to make the decision for themselves towards a championship effort, instead of leaving their fates up to front office. That's what Lebron started back in 2010, Boston was Danny Ainge doing his best to stack his roster with great players. That's the clear separation between the two teams.

It's two completely different mentalities. One guy did what he could to beat the best, and actually achieve something.

The other has the losers mentality of "beating them is too hard, so I'll just hop along for the ride." No challenge, not pushing himself- if Durant had sat on the bench the whole series they likely would still have won.

And let's ignore the Finals MVP performance in that 5 game stretch and play with irrelevant if-situations to push your bumfluff narrative even more.

 

[sjsharks92]

He has been historically great for three straight years in the regular season and through the first three rounds of the playoffs and has been comparatively disappointing in the finals for all three seasons; in the most important games he becomes a lesser version of himself, the definition of not being clutch

But if you'd like to "unpack" for me how clutch it is that his shooting percentage drops and his turnovers explode every year in the finals, I would like to hear your argument

Curry's first finals was weak. His second really shouldn't be counted against him given where his health was.

This finals though he was incredible. While Durant was the best player on the court, Curry was clearly the most important. Every time he was on the court the Cavs defense collapsed on him. High screen well above the 3 point line, both defenders would still trap him. 2 on 1 fast break, the defender would rather run out to defend Curry in the corner and concede an easy dunk. Curry ended the series averaging 9 assists per game, but if you were to include the pass before the assist that number jumps to 16.7 (higher than Lebron's of 14.6 who finished 2nd). He shot 45/38/90 in the Finals (compared to 47/41/90 in the regular season, not much of a drop especially considering the higher quality of defense in the postseason). And on top of all of that he was truly one of the best rebounders in this series for either team, particularly on the offensive glass.

It would be fair to call Steph the 3rd best player in this finals. But what he did this year would normally have been enough to win the Finals MVP award without a second thought.

But, if you choose to believe Steph is not clutch based on his performance in his first 2 finals that is your prerogative. I think it's pretty safe to say that the Steph we saw this time around is far more indicative of the Steph we can expect to see in future Finals performance should the team get back there.

 

[weastern bias]

Curry's first finals was weak. His second really shouldn't be counted against him given where his health was.

Both fair points

This finals though he was incredible. While Durant was the best player on the court, Curry was clearly the most important.

I might actually argue that the Warriors most important player this finals was Draymond Green, he was a FORCE on D and was basically Golden State's best and most important center, as well as one of their best passers and rebounders

Every time he was on the court the Cavs defense collapsed on him. High screen well above the 3 point line, both defenders would still trap him. Curry ended the series averaging 9 assists per game, but if you were to include the pass before the assist that number jumps to 16.7 (higher than Lebron's of 14.6 who finished 2nd).

These are excellent points, but please note that I'm not saying Steph isn't great and ought not be guarded, he is an incredible talent

He shot 45/38/90 in the Finals (compared to 47/41/90 in the regular season, not much of a drop especially considering the higher quality of defense in the postseason).

The Cavs were the 28th ranked team out of 30 on defense this year, they are not the defensive team they used to be and Curry's numbers still dropped

And on top of all of that he was truly one of the best rebounders in this series for either team, particularly on the offensive glass.

I really only think he was doing great work on the glass in Game 5, he was noticeably pursuing loose balls and making possessions happen, but I felt like his strangely high rebound totals in the first 4 games were an incidental effect of the long rebounds generated by the record setting amount of 3 pointers being shot, he was grabbing uncontested boards that just happened to come his way

It would be fair to call Steph the 3rd best player in this finals. But what he did this year would normally have been enough to win the Finals MVP award without a second thought.

This is why I see this series as an indictment against Steph, he hasn't had a solid finals series until he was relegated to being his team's second option on offense

It's impossible to know whether or not he could put up that kind of performance in the finals without a Kevin Durant to play off of, and even in that cushier role he still wasn't as good as he was in the regular season where he played 27 better defensive teams than the one he just faced

I would like to be wrong and see Steph tear it up in one of the multiple future finals the Warriors will inevitably take part in in the near future, but until he shows up in these situations I will continue to say that Steph isn't clutch

But, if you choose to believe Steph is not clutch based on his performance in his first 2 finals that is your prerogative. I think it's pretty safe to say that the Steph we saw this time around is far more indicative of the Steph we can expect to see in future Finals performance should the team get back there.

I think this finals is the one that made it more apparent to me that the previous 2 (his first appearance and one where he was hurt), but I also think you're right that this is the finals Steph we'll see from now on, but through my eyes it's not because he improved, it's because his opponents have to focus on guarding Kevin Durant

 

[sjsharks92]

Both fair points



1. I might actually argue that the Warriors most important player this finals was Draymond Green, he was a FORCE on D and was basically Golden State's best and most important center, as well as one of their best passers and rebounders



These are excellent points, but please note that I'm not saying Steph isn't great and ought not be guarded, he is an incredible talent



2. The Cavs were the 28th ranked team out of 30 on defense this year, they are not the defensive team they used to be and Curry's numbers still dropped



3. I really only think he was doing great work on the glass in Game 5, he was noticeably pursuing loose balls and making possessions happen, but I felt like his strangely high rebound totals in the first 4 games were an incidental effect of the long rebounds generated by the record setting amount of 3 pointers being shot, he was grabbing uncontested boards that just happened to come his way



4. This is why I see this series as an indictment against Steph, he hasn't had a solid finals series until he was relegated to being his team's second option on offense

It's impossible to know whether or not he could put up that kind of performance in the finals without a Kevin Durant to play off of, and even in that cushier role he still wasn't as good as he was in the regular season where he played 27 better defensive teams than the one he just faced

5. I would like to be wrong and see Steph tear it up in one of the multiple future finals the Warriors will inevitably take part in in the near future, but until he shows up in these situations I will continue to say that Steph isn't clutch

Don't know how to break up a quote so I'm numbering the points.

1. Absolutely not. Draymond played great in game 5 but he was too often in foul trouble to make his usual impact in this series.

2. The Cavs defense of the playoffs was not their 28th ranked regular season unit in which they clearly mailed it in the last month of the season. I'm not going to argue they were a great defense, but to act as though their regular season defense has any bearing on how they played in the finals is foolish.

3. That's very strange considering he had 10 boards (3 offensive) in game 2 and 13 boards (5 offensive which lead the game) in game 3. Curry was all over the boards these finals like he has never been in his career.

4. Disagree with that point. Cleveland was clearly game planning for Steph in this series, not KD. When the Warriors set a screen for Curry, even when it was KD setting said screen, they'd still let KD roll off and double Curry. The Cavs preferred to trust Lebron could better defend KD than Kyrie/DWill/Korver/etc. could defend Curry 1 on 1 (a decision I tend to agree with). That said though, the Cavs #1 priority throughout this series was clearly to prevent Curry from getting going. It's why Curry had an inordinate amount of foul shots this series compared to his regular season averages (7.8 per game in the Finals vs 4.6 per game regular season).

5. This is why I wish people on this website would ever at least check with the stats before they make outlandish statements. Because of the Warriors dominance they only played in 4 "clutch" games this postseason (games in which the game was within 5 at any point with 5 minutes to go, 2 of them occurred in the Finals). In those situations Curry was 4th in the playoffs with 5.3 points per game behind only Isaiah Thomas, Kawhi Leonard and James Harden. He shot 75% from the field including 60% from 3 and 100% from the line in "clutch" games. 0 turnovers in those situations as the cherry on top.

Frankly if you weren't impressed by Steph in this Finals I don't think you ever will be.

 

[Hadoop]

First LeBron, then KD, now we're bashing/criticizing Curry?!!

Guy could have been like uber-alpha Westbrook and insisted he continue to take all the big shots. Instead he let KD take matters into his own hands as Durant is a better one-on-one player. That's why this year's Warriors are so damn GREAT. Because every star and even superstars like Curry and KD made sacrifices to insure success.

Dubs could play iso-ball and still win 60 games a year easy. But they move, cut, play defense and share the ball like their lives depend on it.

 

[weastern bias]

Frankly if you weren't impressed by Steph in this Finals I don't think you ever will be.

Maybe the fairest point of the discussion either way