Thanks for Everything, Sully

[ronduguayshair]

Pens 2-0 since this thread was started and everyone agreed.

It goes to show you that the Keyboard Experts use emotion as a determining factor not patience, logic and thorough analysis.

I'd be embarrassed.

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

They’re 2-0 but still look horrible in the process. They’re winning ugly which is winning but hardly convincing that things are hunky dory sunshine and rainbows.

 

[ronduguayshair]

They’re 2-0 but still look horrible in the process. They’re winning ugly which is winning but hardly convincing that things are hunky dory sunshine and rainbows.

1. Alot of teams look a mess...the whole no training camp thing.

2. No coach has ever been fired during a win streak.

3. This thread looks more horrible than the play on the ice.

 

[Pens x]

1. Alot of teams look a mess...the whole no training camp thing.

2. No coach has ever been fired during a win streak.

3. This thread looks more horrible than the play on the ice.

Someone forgot to look at Sully’s 1-9 playoff record over the last 10 playoff games.

We lost to the 24th best team in the playoffs last year. That alone was a fireable offense. Combine that with the previous year Isles series in which we were lifeless and swept? Let me guess, the playoffs were a fluke last year, even though the best team won the cup.

He’s expired man; the only reason why he’s still here is because dumbass JR re-signed him to an excessively long and undeserved contract.

 

[ronduguayshair]

Pens 3-0 since this thread was started and everyone agreed.

 

[chethejet]

Sully is in a tough spot with Malkin being Malkin, a defense that stinks and forwards who are not playing up to their contracts. But sully simply put no longer has the juice to be a semi dictator as long as GMJR and ownership have this illusion that this window is still open. It may take missing the playoffs or another first round exit to open said eyes and move on from that.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I think there will be very few in season coaching moves this year. One, the season is shorter. Harder to evaluate, especially with no training camp.

But any coaching change will come with a quarantine process. Say, hypothetically, the Pens fire Sully and promote Reirden. They still need to hire an assistant to replace Reirden. Anyone who isn't already part of the organization and travel squad, including some people in the front office, would have to quarantine.

And this board's pipe dream of Gerard Gallant? He'd have to quarantine for two weeks, not to mention any assistants. So either you fire Sullivan and have an interim coach for two weeks, risking further dysfunction. Or you secretly tell Gallant he's going to be hired and pretend everything is OK with Sullivan until Gallant is cleared.

Neither scenario is appealing. And what if the Pens win in that stretch of limbo?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

When are we going to blame the focus and desire of the players?

Answer: Never. This is a favorite player forum not a team forum.

And your posts are coming across as favorite coach posts not favorite team posts. Every single time someone brings up a valid criticism of Sullivan's, you seem to defend it and lay the blame squarely on the players.

The fact you think that makes you more objective and rational than the rest of us is funny to me.

 

[ronduguayshair]

And your posts are coming across as favorite coach posts not favorite team posts. Every single time someone brings up a valid criticism of Sullivan's, you seem to defend it and lay the blame squarely on the players.

The fact you think that makes you more objective and rational than the rest of us is funny to me.

Most of the criticism aren't valid though. Very rarely the keyboard experts on this site can talk about his system and why or why not it works. Common theme is "it is not working". That's lazy and not valid. Tell me why his system isn't working. I'd post my thoughts why and I have and it gets no response. Because outside "video game management" catering to favorite players there's no real interest from the keyboard experts.

Sullivan is just a scapegoat for the lazy, uninformed fans. If the most successful Penguins coach is my favorite than so be it.

 

[EightyOne]

Most of the criticism aren't valid though. Very rarely the keyboard experts on this site can talk about his system and why or why not it works. Common theme is "it is not working". That's lazy and not valid. Tell me why his system isn't working. I'd post my thoughts why and I have and it gets no response. Because outside "video game management" catering to favorite players there's no real interest from the keyboard experts.

Sullivan is just a scapegoat for the lazy, uninformed fans. If the most successful Penguins coach is my favorite than so be it.

Telling me the system is fine the players can't execute it is lazy and not valid if you can't tell me what part of the system each player is supposed to be executing.

It's amazing that you don't realize you do the exact same thing. You do not know any better than anyone else here.

None of us ever have all the facts.

Your position that you're superior, without any evidence, is.... Confusing, to say the least.

 

[ronduguayshair]

Telling me the system is fine the players can't execute it is lazy and not valid if you can't tell me what part of the system each player is supposed to be executing.

It's amazing that you don't realize you do the exact same thing. You do not know any better than anyone else here.

None of us ever have all the facts.

Your position that you're superior, without any evidence, is.... Confusing, to say the least.

The system has worked fine in the regular season when games don't matter but in the big games when positioning amps up and there's close checking it fails.

Why? Because our players don't/won't fight through the blue line interference. When they dump the puck the don't get to the puck first whether it be not fighting through the interference or not wanting to take the hit. That is a fact. I get that by you know watching the game.

Any criticism of Sullivan should start at the system. Its my feeling the players aren't implementing it because they aren't hungry to. See line #2 the last two playoff series.

Wanting to fire Sullivan because a fourth liner should in your opinion play 3rd line is just petty analysis.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Idk I think Sullivan has been making some downright bad decisions over the last few years, but this website also comically over-amplifies the amount of criticism he actually deserves. There is a lot of nuance that people really don't seem to want to go to. It can be both that Sullivan is making legitimately bad decisions while the players also aren't carrying their weight. It's fair to say that they're not playing well at all right now, but it's also completely true that a lot of teams look like this right now and they've won 4 games in a row as well.

I feel like HFPens is just really jaded relative to Penguins fans on average, so that probably explains it, but I do feel like this place has been way too negative and way too harsh on Sullivan for the amount of criticism he actually deserves. Playing Rodrigues 18 minutes a night is asinine. Running Cole out of town because you didn't like how outspoken he was is asinine. The fall-out with Kessel was asinine. The losses in the playoffs in the last 2 years have been embarrassing. But at the same time, "he's not playing the exact lines I want to see" is not fair. Dismissing them winning games because "they look bad" is not fair. Saying "Sullivan deserves to be fired because the players are making bad decisions" is not fair.

For reference, I want Sullivan fired if they lose in the 1st round or worse this year. 3 unacceptable years in a row, especially with how bad the other 2 years have been, should be grounds for termination.

 

[ronduguayshair]

Idk I think Sullivan has been making some downright bad decisions over the last few years, but this website also comically over-amplifies the amount of criticism he actually deserves. There is a lot of nuance that people really don't seem to want to go to. It can be both that Sullivan is making legitimately bad decisions while the players also aren't carrying their weight. It's fair to say that they're not playing well at all right now, but it's also completely true that a lot of teams look like this right now and they've won 4 games in a row as well.

I feel like HFPens is just really jaded relative to Penguins fans on average, so that probably explains it, but I do feel like this place has been way too negative and way too harsh on Sullivan for the amount of criticism he actually deserves. Playing Rodrigues 18 minutes a night is asinine. Running Cole out of town because you didn't like how outspoken he was is asinine. The fall-out with Kessel was asinine. The losses in the playoffs in the last 2 years have been embarrassing. But at the same time, "he's not playing the exact lines I want to see" is not fair. Dismissing them winning games because "they look bad" is not fair. Saying "Sullivan deserves to be fired because the players are making bad decisions" is not fair.

For reference, I want Sullivan fired if they lose in the 1st round or worse this year. 3 unacceptable years in a row, especially with how bad the other 2 years have been, should be grounds for termination.

The negativity is totally over the line with Rutherford and Sullivan. As a result I've become negative with the "fans" and it hasn't gone over well. We are the luckiest fans in all of sports.

All the superstars. All the titles. I have no time for the misery. The only caveat to that are season ticket holders corporate and personal. They're opinion matters because they're actually invested.

 

[pistolpete11]

Idk I think Sullivan has been making some downright bad decisions over the last few years, but this website also comically over-amplifies the amount of criticism he actually deserves. There is a lot of nuance that people really don't seem to want to go to. It can be both that Sullivan is making legitimately bad decisions while the players also aren't carrying their weight. It's fair to say that they're not playing well at all right now, but it's also completely true that a lot of teams look like this right now and they've won 4 games in a row as well.

I feel like HFPens is just really jaded relative to Penguins fans on average, so that probably explains it, but I do feel like this place has been way too negative and way too harsh on Sullivan for the amount of criticism he actually deserves. Playing Rodrigues 18 minutes a night is asinine. Running Cole out of town because you didn't like how outspoken he was is asinine. The fall-out with Kessel was asinine. The losses in the playoffs in the last 2 years have been embarrassing. But at the same time, "he's not playing the exact lines I want to see" is not fair. Dismissing them winning games because "they look bad" is not fair. Saying "Sullivan deserves to be fired because the players are making bad decisions" is not fair.

For reference, I want Sullivan fired if they lose in the 1st round or worse this year. 3 unacceptable years in a row, especially with how bad the other 2 years have been, should be grounds for termination.

This isn't why people want Sully fired, though. It might be adding fuel to the fire, but the spark was the Islander playoff debacle and the barrel of gasoline was the Montreal 'playoff' debacle.

I get you think people go overboard, and some do, but you are 2/3 the way there yourself. You can't find it that unreasonable for others to want Sully fired. They just reached the breaking point faster than you. So I really don't get why you spend so much time going to bat for Sully.

 

[pistolpete11]

I think there will be very few in season coaching moves this year. One, the season is shorter. Harder to evaluate, especially with no training camp.

But any coaching change will come with a quarantine process. Say, hypothetically, the Pens fire Sully and promote Reirden. They still need to hire an assistant to replace Reirden. Anyone who isn't already part of the organization and travel squad, including some people in the front office, would have to quarantine.

And this board's pipe dream of Gerard Gallant? He'd have to quarantine for two weeks, not to mention any assistants. So either you fire Sullivan and have an interim coach for two weeks, risking further dysfunction. Or you secretly tell Gallant he's going to be hired and pretend everything is OK with Sullivan until Gallant is cleared.

Neither scenario is appealing. And what if the Pens win in that stretch of limbo?

This is a good point that I hadn't thought of. If they were to fire Sully, I would fully expect Reirden or Vellucci to be named HC, but yeah, who would be the 2nd assistant coach? Maybe someone is kicking around somewhere that wouldn't have to quarantine, but would it be a good option? Maybe it could be an interim assistant?

Before the season started, they hadn't ruled out the possibility of adding a 3rd
assistant, so maybe they would add another assistant before they fired Sully? But it would be real awkward if the team was playing bad enough to fire Sully and they added another coach without firing Sully. Is there something that is more obvious than writing on the wall?

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Idk I think Sullivan has been making some downright bad decisions over the last few years, but this website also comically over-amplifies the amount of criticism he actually deserves. There is a lot of nuance that people really don't seem to want to go to. It can be both that Sullivan is making legitimately bad decisions while the players also aren't carrying their weight. It's fair to say that they're not playing well at all right now, but it's also completely true that a lot of teams look like this right now and they've won 4 games in a row as well.

I feel like HFPens is just really jaded relative to Penguins fans on average, so that probably explains it, but I do feel like this place has been way too negative and way too harsh on Sullivan for the amount of criticism he actually deserves. Playing Rodrigues 18 minutes a night is asinine. Running Cole out of town because you didn't like how outspoken he was is asinine. The fall-out with Kessel was asinine. The losses in the playoffs in the last 2 years have been embarrassing. But at the same time, "he's not playing the exact lines I want to see" is not fair. Dismissing them winning games because "they look bad" is not fair. Saying "Sullivan deserves to be fired because the players are making bad decisions" is not fair.

For reference, I want Sullivan fired if they lose in the 1st round or worse this year. 3 unacceptable years in a row, especially with how bad the other 2 years have been, should be grounds for termination.

You yourself just listed a bunch of "asinine" things Sullivan has done over the years to justify him being criticized. If coaching isn't the issue, there shouldn't be that many blatantly obvious flaws in the coach.

That's like saying Jack Johnson got way too much hate for being a bad player. Sure he couldn't pass, couldn't shoot, couldn't skate, couldn't defend. But fans were over the top in their criticism of just how bad he was. Other than those things I listed, he wasn't that bad.

Point being, if you can point to MULTIPLE things that Sullivan is doing that is actively contributing to the failures of the club, then at that point criticism of him is valid. Especially because there IS blame placed on the individual players as well. Nobody is giving Malkin a completely free pass for have 2 points in 6 games and going 0 points in 4 last playoffs. No one is completely giving Crosby a pass when his play isn't up to snuff. It's a case of also pointing out that Sullivan's not exactly putting them in the best positions to succeed.

 

[Empoleon8771]

You yourself just listed a bunch of "asinine" things Sullivan has done over the years to justify him being criticized. If coaching isn't the issue, there shouldn't be that many blatantly obvious flaws in the coach.

That's like saying Jack Johnson got way too much hate for being a bad player. Sure he couldn't pass, couldn't shoot, couldn't skate, couldn't defend. But fans were over the top in their criticism of just how bad he was. Other than those things I listed, he wasn't that bad.

Point being, if you can point to MULTIPLE things that Sullivan is doing that is actively contributing to the failures of the club, then at that point criticism of him is valid. Especially because there IS blame placed on the individual players as well. Nobody is giving Malkin a completely free pass for have 2 points in 6 games and going 0 points in 4 last playoffs. No one is completely giving Crosby a pass when his play isn't up to snuff. It's a case of also pointing out that Sullivan's not exactly putting them in the best positions to succeed.

You can do this with literally any coach of any team in any league. There's a big difference between Sullivan's flaws and flaws of a coach such as Mike Johnston, who's a legitimately bad NHL coach.

This just goes back to my point, some people absolutely REFUSE to use nuance in a discussion. It's not as simple as "is coaching an issue or not". Not everything is so god damn black and white where a coach has to either be amazing or shit. Sullivan is a great coach that has done dumb things that make the team worse. Guess who that also describes? Literally every single other great coach in the NHL ever.

If you genuinely think that having feuds with 2 players and 2 bad playoff losses are "many blatantly obvious flaws", I really implore you to do research on literally any other coach in the NHL. Literally pick one, any coach.

 

[Empoleon8771]

John Tortorella has run multiple stars out of Columbus and has had borderline no success with the Jackets outside of their upset against the Lightning in 2019. John Cooper was on the hot seat in the eyes of fans because of how many times the Lightning had lost in the playoffs without winning (especially after getting swept by the Jackets in 2019), and he had a track record of making baffling lineup decisions such as playing a recently bought out Dan Girardi in a fringe top-4 D role. Babcock continuously played scrub grinders like Glendening in highly elevated roles, plus he was generally a piece of shit person (such as that story with Kadri and Marner). He also was head coach for Canada for 2 gold medals and made it to 3 cup finals, winning 1 of them. Dan Bylsma is in basically the same category as Babcock minus being a piece of shit.

You can extend this to GMs, too. Steve Yzerman is considered one of the best GMs in hockey. He also ran Marty St. Louis out of town while in Tampa Bay by not putting him on Team Canada's Olympic team and has never won a cup. Joe Sakic was considered a massive failure as a GM early in his tenure, with the Avs being a historically bad team and calls of him being as bad of a GM as Roy was a coach. Now he's hailed as one of the best GMs in hockey.

The point I'm making here is that you can point out "that many blatantly obvious flaws" with literally any hockey coach, GM or any other executive position. If badly losing 2 playoff rounds and having dumb personal feuds with a few players counts as "that many blatantly obvious flaws", there are 31 head coaches in the NHL that have "that many blatantly obvious flaws". If the amount of flaws that Sullivan has rises to the level of "fireable offenses", there wouldn't be a single coach that would last more than 3 years with any given team.

This isn't even a defense of Sullivan here, like I said above I want him fired if they flame out in the playoffs this year. This is a criticism of people who attack him and completely lack nuance and perspective in that discussion.

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

More uninspired garbage. Sully sullying his reputation.

 

[Andy99]

More uninspired garbage. Sully sullying his reputation.

Yep...it’s time

 

[ronduguayshair]

Penguins 4-0-1 since this thread was started and 0-0-1 since it was bumped. Tied with a bunch of teams for second in the division. Not bad and not grounds for termination.

I thought Sullivan made a nice adjustment last night having the team dump the puck to Rask rather then the corners. That changed helped us get some zone time and momentum.

 

[ownal]

Penguins 4-0-1 since this thread was started and 0-0-1 since it was bumped. Tied with a bunch of teams for second in the division. Not bad and not grounds for termination.

I thought Sullivan made a nice adjustment last night having the team dump the puck to Rask rather then the corners. That changed helped us get some zone time and momentum.

It took ERod getting hurt for Sully to do something smart.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

This team has had the lead for a little over a half hour... total.

Their record is a damned mirage and anyone who has watched more than like 5 minutes of hockey knows it.

Results are result etc. But some of this pointing at the scoreboard is awfully disingenuous IMO.

 

[KIRK]

This team has had the lead for a little over a half hour... total.

Their record is a damned mirage and anyone who has watched more than like 5 minutes of hockey knows it.

Results are result etc. But some of this pointing at the scoreboard is awfully disingenuous IMO.

My big concern from last night is that when you watch Boston, they play as a 5 man unit. Structure and support. With and without the puck. Top to bottom. All over the ice.

The Pens are another story, top to bottom and in every zone, which is why Boston routinely outnumbered them all over the ice.

Ergo, the Penguins start every game against a Boston or a New York or a Montreal or a NY Islanders at a competitive disadvantage.

That's a coaching issue (either tactically or everyone is ignoring him) that goes beyond questions of points and shows up in the playoffs.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

My big concern from last night is that when you watch Boston, they play as a 5 man unit. Structure and support. With and without the puck. Top to bottom. All over the ice.

The Pens are another story, top to bottom and in every zone, which is why Boston routinely outnumbered them all over the ice.

Ergo, the Penguins start every game against a Boston or a New York or a Montreal or a NY Islanders at a competitive disadvantage.

That's a coaching issue (either tactically or everyone is ignoring him) that goes beyond questions of points and shows up in the playoffs.

Completely agree. You watch a team like Boston and while rusty to a degree you can tell there is a core of discipline and structure there this team isn't close to achieving.

In some ways the Penguins are rather impressive and IMPLY a very good roster since they look completely rudderless and are still hanging in these games, somehow. But the wheels are REALLY gonna blow off in dramatic fashion sooner rather than later. Unless a guy like Malkin can come roaring back which frankly even I am completely up in the air about right now.