Thanks for Everything, Sully

Status
Not open for further replies.

Destroyer

Registered User
Jan 20, 2021
24
31
Long time Penguins fan and lurker here. Isn't it a little early for all the doom and gloom?

I'm also a Dolphins fan and I'm surprised by how pessimistic this forum is when the penguins have had so much success in the last several years. The Dolphins forum I actually post on is sunshine and rainbows compared to this place and they haven't won a single playoff game in over 20 years.
 

Will Hunting

Immortal Adams
Dec 14, 2011
7,091
2,243
European Union
Long time Penguins fan and lurker here. Isn't it a little early for all the doom and gloom?

I'm also a Dolphins fan and I'm surprised by how pessimistic this forum is when the penguins have had so much success in the last several years. The Dolphins forum I actually post on is sunshine and rainbows compared to this place and they haven't won a single playoff game in over 20 years.
It might be too late already.
 

Mr. T

Registered User
Feb 15, 2003
3,717
903
Long time Penguins fan and lurker here. Isn't it a little early for all the doom and gloom?

I'm also a Dolphins fan and I'm surprised by how pessimistic this forum is when the penguins have had so much success in the last several years. The Dolphins forum I actually post on is sunshine and rainbows compared to this place and they haven't won a single playoff game in over 20 years.

Welcome, and my condolences on being a Fin fan.

There's a subset of doom and gloom perverts on this board that need to complain about everything early on so they can later post about how they've been saying it longer than anyone else. Not sure why one needs validation from a bunch of dumbasses on a hockey message board, but to each their own!
 

ronduguayshair

Registered User
Oct 23, 2017
3,583
1,398
Welcome, and my condolences on being a Fin fan.

There's a subset of doom and gloom perverts on this board that need to complain about everything early on so they can later post about how they've been saying it longer than anyone else. Not sure why one needs validation from a bunch of dumbasses on a hockey message board, but to each their own!


It’s sad that the misery is what is the vocal majority here. It’s made me hate the “fan”base
 

Tweed

Registered User
Jun 25, 2006
4,025
1,203
I was of the mindset to fire Sully and go Full Trap, immediately after the second cup. Yep, nothing against him... just couldn’t see the team dragging their battered asses to a third cup trying to play uptempo.
 

cygnus47

Registered User
Sep 14, 2013
7,566
2,643
I was of the mindset to fire Sully and go Full Trap, immediately after the second cup. Yep, nothing against him... just couldn’t see the team dragging their battered asses to a third cup trying to play uptempo.

They don't even play uptempo, they haven't in years. They just play passive, bad defense. If they actually played like 2016 I'd be happy.
 

Ugene Magic

EVIL LAUGH
Oct 17, 2008
54,307
18,687
Pittsburgh
Long time Penguins fan and lurker here. Isn't it a little early for all the doom and gloom?

I'm also a Dolphins fan and I'm surprised by how pessimistic this forum is when the penguins have had so much success in the last several years. The Dolphins forum I actually post on is sunshine and rainbows compared to this place and they haven't won a single playoff game in over 20 years.

Not that you are wrong or anything. But if you have been that long of a lurker you'd have answered your own question without questioning.

We have issues, we are so bipolar it changes play by play.:laugh:

Just saying.

I'm glad your forum is happy as sunshine and rainbows. Expectations probably has a lot to do with that. Ours is almost there. Give us a little more time. So stick around, post more. Welcome aboard...:thumbu:

We'll try and not be so pessimistic. No promises... Just too many of us for our in house shrink to handle so many cases.

I also just got done watching "TAG."

tenor.gif


It’s sad that the misery is what is the vocal majority here. It’s made me hate the “fan”base

I'd like to call it Sadistic sarcasm.
 
Last edited:

Pens x

Registered User
Oct 8, 2016
16,220
8,008
Look at the teams that have won the cup over the last decade: only Sully, Cooper and Berube remain employed with their teams. One of these guys won the cup a couple of months back and the other less than two years ago.

Trotz, Q, Julien, Sutter are all gone. Only 4 or 5 coaches have been with their current teams longer than Sully.

It’s time to move on.
 

Honour Over Glory

Fire Sully
Jan 30, 2012
77,316
42,447
I know that Rust is not playing well. He deserves criticism. But to dump him from the TOP6 for Tanev and ERod staying next to Sid and playing 19 minutes tells you a lot about Mike Sullivan. And Kapanen looking crazy dangerous in every single shift and staying pinned to the 4th line. It was such a big game too and Sullivan´s stubborness easily could´ve cost them that game. Not to mention structural deficiences and players probably not giving 100% for him anymore. What was that start btw? Embarrassing. It took some miraculous 3 on 5 goal to woke them up and they finally played some legit hockey after that for the first time in forever. But it was not because of Mike Sullivan. He needs to go. To me, this is reaching Mike Johnston´s level of toxics.
Yeah, exactly this. 100%

People want to explicitly blame JR for the roster and not giving Sullivan enough, well Sullivan had enough when they fell to the Caps, injuries were an excuse there whereas I really think if you’re in the playoffs after 82 games, you should have figured out how to use your damn farm system to keep the team fresh which he did try to do and succeed with in the back 2 back cups but then suddenly strayed further and further away from that usage.

Then the year after that, his lack of creativity with the roster and the butting of heads with Malkin and Kessel and then the trade of Hagelin because JR can’t/won’t openly criticize the coach, who was also beefing with Ian Cole prior to all of this as well. That’s some serious petty shit. JR is a f***ing clown, sure, throws bad contracts here and there, but even with that idiocy, he’s not complacent. Sullivan is. His entire lack of strategy advancement since the cup is proof of his lack of evolving his system to the new ways. Teams with far lesser rosters beat the shit out of his team. People seriously can’t f***ing sit there and tell me the Islanders and Habs had a better f***ing roster than the Pens. If anyone does, they’re likely f***ing idiots. Rutherford definitely could have provided even better players, but better coaches have done far more with less.

Right now, he’s not exactly sitting with a shit roster, absolutely not. He’s using it absolutely piss poor and it’s so f***ing clear to see it but people still have a hard time saying it because they feel like they gotta say “Yeah, but JR...”

The usage of Rodrigues, Kapanen, Rust, etc is not JR’s doing behind the bench. Same for the last couple of seasons with the bizarre and stupid usage of Jack Johnson.

I also call f***ing bullshit on his contract being an issue. SO the team is ok trading for and signing players but are afraid of paying a coach that is ruining that window with the aging core? Really? That’s the f***ing go to answer for “Oh they don’t want to pay him to sit” well f***, do you want to see JR keep trading for better options, spending to the cap and having Sullivan mis-use the shit out of it? That costs more than money, that costs you a window for your cores prime. Sullivan would likely get scooped up by some team as an Assistant Coach, possibly even the Jackets as Torts is his mentor and all that bollocks. Seattle loves Ex Pens, so maybe he’d get that job, mostly don’t give a shit where he ends up.

Penguins didn’t win because of Sullivan’s brilliant coaching the last 2 games, they won 1 because the Caps were absolutely shittier than the Pens and then couldn’t score worth shit in the shootout and were an embarrassment in OT, then the 2nd game, glue guys stepped up and made it happen and some fight back from players that needed to show up, but the underlying issues were still very present.

6yrs in, he’s won back 2 back cups, then the last 3 seasons he’s basically squandered that dominance and set the team back heavily, JR with the 3ASS = 1G of of support.

He reminds me of this bloke that I used to know, he’d transfer to departments after each fiscal year, do well that year, then he’d transfer to another one because he could never replicate or continue that level of success as he didn’t know how to evolve his own methods with the next year with a clean slate and now a set of numbers he has to top. That’s Sullivan, he found success with more than likely an Assistant Coach that took his methods and used his own ideology and had incredible success, but since that person left, it’s been a clear shit show.

THIS DUMB MOTHER f***ER AND GONCHAR LITERALLY VOUCHED FOR JACK JOHNSON.

Like even Jack Johnson would tell you he sucks.

I will never get over that.
 

Honour Over Glory

Fire Sully
Jan 30, 2012
77,316
42,447
trying to play*
I hate the excuse of “we don’t have the right players” because we didn’t in the first cup either. It was a change in how they were utilized and how WBS was utilized.

That first one we had Sheary, Kuhnhackl, Wilson, Murray, Rust, etc. Mostly youth.

But since then, it’s been specifically using veteran journeymen AHL’ers and very few of the young players with any potential. Do we have studs in WBS? Who knows?

But Kuhnhackl, Wilson, etc weren’t some f***ing highly coveted prospects either. It was their utilization. Sullivan seems unwilling to give them a shot or even a fair one.

For me, the part where I really said f*** you to Sullivan was the whole Blueger thing, recalled and then not used even once. It wasn’t so much the player that was recalled, but the fact that they recalled him, then didn’t even use him. But Sebastian Dea of all f***ing people got more opportunities that season?

Long time Penguins fan and lurker here. Isn't it a little early for all the doom and gloom?

I'm also a Dolphins fan and I'm surprised by how pessimistic this forum is when the penguins have had so much success in the last several years. The Dolphins forum I actually post on is sunshine and rainbows compared to this place and they haven't won a single playoff game in over 20 years.

The Gen X years, most were just used to seeing the Pens being one of the worst teams, it was more or less a “just happy to be here and talk about Penguins hockey!” Type of mentality and I was a lurker at the time and posting at other places here and there. So the Dolphins thing, it’s sort of that. But when you give us a taste of the dominance this team once showed and then quickly squander it, that’s the “doom and gloom” stuff. It’s not even doom and gloom, it’s seeing a consistent downward trend in the way this team plays and the success that could come from that style. It’s steadily gotten worse, there’s no solve, there’s very little lack of understanding of the failures of the last 3yrs and if you’re not learning from your mistakes, you’re just doomed to keep repeating them and that’s where Sullivan is at. He’s good at saying he sees the issues, but then there’s no fix.

JR might be a dumb old fool, but the JJ thing was just, he listened to what his coach wanted, so while JR should have definitely vetoed that move, when your back 2 back winning coach and his assistant come to you with a plan for a bloke, you say ok, let’s see (probably not with that contract term, Jesus Christ, that part is all 100% on JR). I can see why JR would get a little more rope as he’s attempted and in some parts, succeeded at fixing some things. But when your coach can’t.....
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Destroyer

OtherThingsILike

Registered User
May 6, 2020
1,506
1,272
Pittsburgh
Sullivan isn't going to be fired this early into a season where ownership cut costs because of COVID-related reasons.

The Penguins are notorious for starting seasons slowly. They are starting this season slowly as well.
 

JRS91

Registered User
Jul 4, 2010
2,065
1,031
Since 2018, I've looked at it like this.

2018 - Just a tired and depleted group. Two Stanley Cup runs and took arguably the second best team in the league at the time and eventual Stanley Cup champions to a game 6 in OT. Not a whole lot you can do about that.

2019 - Outplayed and outcoached. I'm willing to share the blame. The entire team just looked awful aside from maybe Kessel. When you get swept, there's plenty of blame to go around.

2020 - Once again, just completely out outplayed and outcoached. This is the point where you consider firing the coach. I didn't expect them to go far, especially with the way the team struggled during the season.

I know Sullivan has soured on a lot of fans for a couple years now, but it was really only last season when I considered firing him. The issue is, the next head coach is going to be an internal option. Whether that's Reirden or Vellucci. Aside from Mike Johnston, every coach in the Crosby/Malkin-era has been an internal hire. Therrien, Bylsma, and now Sullivan. That's how the team does things, I don't see that changing anytime soon. You have to ask yourself, is Reirden a better coach than Sullivan? Could Vellucci be? Everyone said there couldn't have been a worse coach than Bylsma for years and we got Mike Johnston. I'm not saying Sullivan is untouchable, he's definitely going to get fired if they underachieve this season, I just think finding a suitable replacement is more important and I have zero faith in our internal options. Then again, I said that when Bylsma was coach and Sullivan did a solid job starting off, so who knows?
 

ronduguayshair

Registered User
Oct 23, 2017
3,583
1,398
When are we going to blame the focus and desire of the players?

Answer: Never. This is a favorite player forum not a team forum.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: AjaxTelamon

SouthGeorge

Registered User
May 2, 2018
7,960
3,078
He got lucky once. System and right players. Forced to change it up for 2nd cup and won with less talented roster. Yet, he refuses to win like that again and wants it like the 1st time. It's mind boggling and pure arrogance. Look, I get maybe players don't want to play like that for a full season. I get it but you have to change it up come playoff time. Barely working in regular season and not working in the post-season. The book is out on him. Keep everything in front. Don't let them get behind your defense and let them over pass their way out of chances.
 

Pancakes

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Mar 4, 2011
26,216
18,067
They should have fired Sullivan last off season if they were going to.

It's too early in the season to do it now. 4 games? Way too early. Once you make a decision to stay with him, you give him more time than this to see if he can do well. If the team goes into a huge tailspin, fine, but we're not there yet.
 

Zap Rowsdower

Registered User
Sep 10, 2019
237
346
I was watching KK flying around the ice, being creative, and creating scoring chances. All I could think of was wait until Sullivan gets a hold of him and molds him in an ineffective, vanilla, and overly structured player.
 

pistolpete11

Registered User
Apr 27, 2013
11,593
10,401
Since 2018, I've looked at it like this.

2018 - Just a tired and depleted group. Two Stanley Cup runs and took arguably the second best team in the league at the time and eventual Stanley Cup champions to a game 6 in OT. Not a whole lot you can do about that.

2019 - Outplayed and outcoached. I'm willing to share the blame. The entire team just looked awful aside from maybe Kessel. When you get swept, there's plenty of blame to go around.

2020 - Once again, just completely out outplayed and outcoached. This is the point where you consider firing the coach. I didn't expect them to go far, especially with the way the team struggled during the season.

I know Sullivan has soured on a lot of fans for a couple years now, but it was really only last season when I considered firing him. The issue is, the next head coach is going to be an internal option. Whether that's Reirden or Vellucci. Aside from Mike Johnston, every coach in the Crosby/Malkin-era has been an internal hire. Therrien, Bylsma, and now Sullivan. That's how the team does things, I don't see that changing anytime soon. You have to ask yourself, is Reirden a better coach than Sullivan? Could Vellucci be? Everyone said there couldn't have been a worse coach than Bylsma for years and we got Mike Johnston. I'm not saying Sullivan is untouchable, he's definitely going to get fired if they underachieve this season, I just think finding a suitable replacement is more important and I have zero faith in our internal options. Then again, I said that when Bylsma was coach and Sullivan did a solid job starting off, so who knows?
I disagree with this premise.

Sullivan can be a better coach than Reirden or Vellucci and still be the wrong coach for this team at this point in time. Bylsma is the perfect example. I think everybody pretty much realizes that Bylsma was riding the coattails of Crosby and Malkin at this point, but he was the right coach at the right time to loosen the reigns after Therrien.

I don't know that Reirden or Vellucci would be the right coach at this point, but I'm convinced Sullivan is the wrong coach.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cygnus47 and BHD

pistolpete11

Registered User
Apr 27, 2013
11,593
10,401
When are we going to blame the focus and desire of the players?

Answer: Never. This is a favorite forum not a team forum.
OK, but it's not working. So what do you do to change it? Bringing in new players hasn't exactly worked very well the last 2-3 years. Do you go full nuclear and trade Crosby or Malkin before trying a new head coach?
 

ronduguayshair

Registered User
Oct 23, 2017
3,583
1,398
OK, but it's not working. So what do you do to change it? Bringing in new players hasn't exactly worked very well the last 2-3 years. Do you go full nuclear and trade Crosby or Malkin before trying a new head coach?

I don't think you do anything. This is the way things are when teams age out. I would have traded Letang after the Washington series or Malkin the year after that and rebuilt on the fly with two prospects. His east/west play isn't really on par with the system but you look the other way when it is elite. It is no longer elite. Now his trade value is less and I think you have to keep him. He's just not a difference maker anymore 5 on 5 especially in close checking games.

What the keyboard experts don't get is without practices in the 2021, NHL landscape a coach firing is more likely not to work.

But people are mad that our stars are not top tier anymore and our team is middling orangically and their miserable selves want heads to roll.

I'm not sure what kind of replacement coach would work here with this core at this point. Got to treat the core with "kid gloves" but somehow get them to look inside themselves to modify their game for their age. It wouldn't be a college coach. I think Tocchet fits that mold but I think people here highly overrate him too.

Maybe a former player.
 

OtherThingsILike

Registered User
May 6, 2020
1,506
1,272
Pittsburgh
I was watching KK flying around the ice, being creative, and creating scoring chances. All I could think of was wait until Sullivan gets a hold of him and molds him in an ineffective, vanilla, and overly structured player.
Not sure where you're getting this from. Sullivan might require the least structure from his players out of all the coaches in the league. That may or may not be the root of the problems this season.
 

AjaxTelamon

Registered User
Jul 8, 2011
6,070
1,825
When are we going to blame the focus and desire of the players?

Answer: Never. This is a favorite forum not a team forum.

Yeah, it doesn't matter who the coach is, the core of the team is old and can't (or won't) play the uptempo style, and would certainly refuse to trap or play with that kind of structure. So playing a new style is great, but you're living in fantasy land if you think this team will do it. The younger players who should pick up the mantle of effort and drive the team just aren't those guys. Jake and Rust have their money and their cup(s), and just don't play the same now. Our 2016-18 identity wasn't a finesse team, it was a hard working team from Sid on down to Cole, Hagelin, Hornqvist, Cullen and Bonino. The young guys followed those vets.

This is why I hated to see PH go (aside from the fact he can still play). He was the de facto captain when it came to getting on guys and turning up the effort. I am not sure why the current effort level surprises anyone. Rust would have been my choice to go, he had good value in a hockey trade. It would be painful, like Neal for PH, but could have helped the team.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ronduguayshair

Mario_is_BACK!!

ACK! ACK ACK! ACK!!!
Nov 29, 2003
8,363
7,141
Charleston, SC
www.caseandpointsports.com
Long time Penguins fan and lurker here. Isn't it a little early for all the doom and gloom?

I'm also a Dolphins fan and I'm surprised by how pessimistic this forum is when the penguins have had so much success in the last several years. The Dolphins forum I actually post on is sunshine and rainbows compared to this place and they haven't won a single playoff game in over 20 years.

The last several years have been a second round loss to the Caps, a first round sweep by the Islanders and a 12-5 dumping by the Canadiens. They've had zero success in the past few years and have just gotten worse. This isn't some knee jerk reaction, it's a continuation of years of regression.
 
Last edited:

pistolpete11

Registered User
Apr 27, 2013
11,593
10,401
Crosby and Malkin are too old and can't carry the team anymore. We've heard this talk before. Then they fired Johnston, brought in Sully, and all of sudden Crosby and Malkin revert back to being studs and carried the team to B-2-B Cups (especially the second one).

If people keep saying it, they will eventually be right, but I just can't buy that logic now. Malkin was a stud last year in the regular season. Crosby was a stud the year before in the regular season. They haven't fallen off a cliff in a year or 2's time. Are they declining? Sure. Are they top 5 players in the league anymore? Maybe not, but they are not as bad as they have shown against the Islanders, Canadiens, and so far this regular season. It is painfully obvious that they are not buying into whatever Sully is selling anymore.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Ad

Ad

-->