Post-Game Talk: Thank Hutch

[leaffaninvancouver]

Not to mention the Leafs drafted d-men in the first round in both 2017 and 2018. Those picks have developed so well and are showing that they could be major players on the Leafs blue line, resolving some concerns the back end.

I didn't agree with all the moves (trading our second round picks for rentals) but the rebuild certainly wasn't rushed.

One thing I’ve liked is that even with our struggles in the first round it’s a winning culture. The team sees that ownership has faith and wants them to get playoff experience, Eichel is being wasted in Buffalo with his lack of playoff exposure.

 

[Vaive50]

I'm starting to see why Dubas wasn't keen on pulling the trigger for a backup...

Yep, so for Hutch's last 4 starts, his record is 4-0-0, 1.5 GAA,
.948 SV%. Do we really need to keep the talks going about finding a better back-up, isn't this what we'd be looking for anyhow.

 

[LeafSteel]

They made the playoffs by one point. Boyle was good for us. That experience was worth it.

It wasn't early in the rebuild. We had multiple high picks and multiple franchise talents in the organization and on the team.

I don't think they should have given Marleau 3 years, but the idea behind signing a player like Marleau was not wrong.

Problem is, people view any moves done for a better chance at a cup as useless unless you win a cup, but if you went by that theory and never did the things that moved you towards a cup or gave you that type of experience, you'd never win a cup. Even for the best teams, the chance of winning a cup is low.

I agree with most of this.

Absolutely hated the trade for Plekanec. Complete waste of a 2nd and he was not useful.

I would have been ok with the Boyle trade if he had resigned, but when he walked as a UFA, again wasn't pleased with it, but I could live with it.

Marleau was necessary to provide a good role model on and off the ice for our talented but young new core. He was fine for 2 years, but the 3rd year that made it a stinker. Would rather have paid more for the 2 years.

2 traded 2nd round picks, 2 traded 1st round picks in the past 3 years, and all we have to show is Muzzin (who I like very much)......

....... I hope we are done doing that. We are very good at drafting now, and those picks are what are going to be our pipeline of ELC and talent moving forward.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Yep, so for Hutch's last 4 starts, his record is 4-0-0, 1.5 GAA,
.948 SV%. Do we really need to keep the talks going about finding a better back-up, isn't this what we'd be looking for anyhow.

I want a better backup so Andersen isn’t burned out, also I want a backup that will be able to replace Andersen if needed. Hutchinson has been serviceable lately but apart from the Islanders all his wins are against bottom feeders.

Full credit to him though on his improved play, I just don’t think it’s enough if we want to make a deep run.

 

[Menzinger]

 

[Menzinger]

It seems some think that a rebuild means that you acquire every single important piece there is before you start to win games again. I have no idea where that comes from because that never happens, and there are no perfect teams in the league nowadays.

Yeah. Some folks have this idea.that theres this specific formula for how a rebuild HAS to unfold. When in reality no two teams are ever alike

 

[Big Muddy]

We weren't a rebuilding team anymore at that point. Our core was excelling. We were competitive and made the playoffs with half the team as rookies. Expecting this team to bottom out with the type of talent that was on it was not realistic. Best case scenario, we'd be drafting in the teens, and we wouldn't be getting any better prospects than we have been (Liljegren, Sandin, Robertson, etc.) while we developed a culture of losing.

Meh debatable. Certainly could easily argue it fell in under rushing the rebuild. No one was saying they should bottom out, but the team was good enough without those players to make the playoffs. Also I guess if we define competitive as just making the playoffs. I'm saying just that, it was a young team that made the playoffs, let them learn from it but going all in at that point seemed unnecessary given how early it was in the rebuild. Could've had another first if they didn't sign Marleau and a few other picks. Previous rebuilds have been screwed from getting too greedy too early. Overall they did a good job.

A couple of things I've noticed since my limited time being here. People will try to back up their position by making exaggerated claims to distort the issue at hand. Some people dislike any kind of thinking that challenges the management regime no matter how thoughtful & reasonable the question is. Circle the wagons & defend is the reflexive reaction no matter what.

 

[ShaneFalco]

It’s not that black and white either though. Babcock had to go but he was also getting blamed for things he had no control over like scheduling and injuries, and some of the things Keefe has done we’d be roasting Babcock over.

If Babcock had Hyman playing regular minutes on the power play this place would have gone nuts. People were mad that he was even playing in the top 6 to start the season.

It’s like we have no middle ground here sometimes, either you’re the hero or the villain and there’s nothing in between.

agree to disagree. Terrible coach who cannot and will not adapt. And an egotistical jackass who is on a power trip

 

[Big Muddy]

It seems some think that a rebuild means that you acquire every single important piece there is before you start to win games again. I have no idea where that comes from because that never happens, and there are no perfect teams in the league nowadays.

Yeah. Some folks have this idea.that theres this specific formula for how a rebuild HAS to unfold. When in reality no two teams are ever alike

Don't really think people are saying that every single piece needs to be in place before you start winning games, or that there is a specific formula. Exaggeration of the point being made is not helping anything or making the rebuttal stronger.

I would imagine that many folks in there have been wishing for that solid, defensive top 4 defender for quite some time and wishing we had drafted one (or more) of them. Its not outlandish.

 

[Suntouchable13]

A couple of things I've noticed since my limited time being here. People will try to back up their position by making exaggerated claims to distort the issue at hand. Some people dislike any kind of thinking that challenges the management regime no matter how thoughtful & reasonable the question is. Circle the wagons & defend is the reflexive reaction no matter what.

I agree. Trading 2nd round picks for rental 4th line Cs was dumb. Signing Marleau to that deal was dumb.

 

[Sypher04]

2 traded 2nd round picks, 2 traded 1st round picks in the past 3 years, and all we have to show is Muzzin (who I like very much)......

That is one way and even a very common way of looking at it but not entirely fair imo.

That 2nd 1st given up is the only reason we still had cap room for Kapanen and Johnsson.

And the 2nd for Boyle bought us invaluable playoff experience.

 

[Menzinger]

Don't really think people are saying that every single piece needs to be in place before you start winning games, or that there is a specific formula. Exaggeration of the point being made is not helping anything or making the rebuttal stronger.

I would imagine that many folks in there have been wishing for that solid, defensive top 4 defender for quite some time and wishing we had drafted one (or more) of them. Its not outlandish.

Theres a difference between wanting something vs having a practical way of getting it.

Even if the Leafs tanked another season theres absolutely zero guarantee that leads to an improved defenseive group

 

[Sypher04]

I agree. Trading 2nd round picks for rental 4th line Cs was dumb. Signing Marleau to that deal was dumb.

Plekanec sure, but in the case of Boyle that's a hard argument to support

 

[Dekes For Days]

A couple of things I've noticed since my limited time being here. People will try to back up their position by making exaggerated claims to distort the issue at hand. Some people dislike any kind of thinking that challenges the management regime no matter how thoughtful & reasonable the question is. Circle the wagons & defend is the reflexive reaction no matter what.

That's not what happened at all. He was suggesting bottoming out at the start. Otherwise, the argument makes no sense. "Rebuilding" and letting valuable years go by so that you can pick in the teens is useless.

 

[ThrowDemTongs]

Imagine being the Ottawa Senators

 

[Big Muddy]

Theres a difference between wanting something vs having a practical way of getting it.

Even if the Leafs tanked another season theres absolutely zero guarantee that leads to an improved defenseive group

Not saying the Leafs should have tanked.

But, addressing your point about practical methods, solid defensive type defenders have been drafted in the 2nd round (especially the top half of the 2nd round) many times, by many teams. There's an expression: Cleverness is good, but patience is better.

 

[Big Muddy]

That's not what happened at all. He was suggesting bottoming out at the start. Otherwise, the argument makes no sense. "Rebuilding" and letting valuable years go by so that you can pick in the teens is useless.

OK, by contrast I'm not suggesting "bottoming out". But many teams have found solid defensive type dmen in the 2nd round around where we were drafting anyways. What did we actually achieve in those valuable years?

 

[Dekes For Days]

But many teams have found solid defensive type dmen in the 2nd round around where we were drafting anyways.

The actual value of a 2nd round pick is much less than people think. Just because something can happen, doesn't mean it does very often. The Leafs have drafted extremely well with the picks they have had over the last few years, and have two young blue chip defensemen on ELCs pushing their way into the NHL.

Lots of talk about that one pick we didn't have, and no consideration for what it gained us, how we did with our other picks, other prospects we have found outside the draft system, etc.

What did we actually achieve in those valuable years?

Experience and entertainment, and a chance at the cup.

Every year you don't win the cup is not a waste. NHL teams do not throw away chances at the playoffs for fairly insignificant assets. If that's what you're expecting, expect to be disappointed by every GM we or any team ever has.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Yeah. Some folks have this idea.that theres this specific formula for how a rebuild HAS to unfold. When in reality no two teams are ever alike

That’s what people said under JFJ, Burke, and Nonis.
Notice that a “rebuild” didn’t work in the slightest for the leafs until the VERY moment they decided to do it properly. Because there IS a proper way to do it, exceptions notwithstanding.

The problem was that it worked too well for an impatient mlse. After using 7 rookies as regulars (a mere year after being told to “prepare for pain”) and sneaking into the playoffs, mlse went all “win now” mode and signed Marleau. Something that many of us SCREAMED would be a horrible idea.

The leafs should have played the kids another year, while still gathering picks/prospects.
At the very least we’d have our current first round pick, and likely some other nice young pieces in the organization.
Rushing the rebuild accomplished nothing in the slightest.

 

[WillNy29]

No Chabot tier D but even Pittsburgh's “weak” D when they were winning cups was still far more reliable and competent than what we’re icing. Which will happen when you do a 3 year rebuild. Chicago’s D was world class obviously. Wish we had retained a defender like Keith from a previous rebuild, maybe like Schenn? If only that wasn’t such a dumpster of a pick..I’m still not completely sold on this rebuild as I think many unnecessary mistakes have been made already by management.

We can argue all day but it’s a fact that we rushed the rebuild because we had to. Might come back to bite our asses, time will tell.

but you implied they got these chabot level dmen from a rebuild I still dont see evidence of that? pittsburgh's number 1 dman was arguably an undersized rover from the third round...I'm still trying to understand how the leafs failed their rebuild when they drafted a #1 dman (although having his struggles this season) higher than any of last few cup champs outside of st louis

 

[WillNy29]

That’s what people said under JFJ, Burke, and Nonis.
Notice that a “rebuild” didn’t work in the slightest for the leafs until the VERY moment they decided to do it properly. Because there IS a proper way to do it, exceptions notwithstanding.

The problem was that it worked too well for an impatient mlse. After using 7 rookies as regulars (a mere year after being told to “prepare for pain”) and sneaking into the playoffs, mlse went all “win now” mode and signed Marleau. Something that many of us SCREAMED would be a horrible idea.

The leafs should have played the kids another year, while still gathering picks/prospects.
At the very least we’d have our current first round pick, and likely some other nice young pieces in the organization.
Rushing the rebuild accomplished nothing in the slightest.

so Marleau was the reason we continued to make the playoffs and not having a plethora of young players who were good enough to push us over the hump? should the leafs have benched these young players to tank more?

 

[Martin Skoula]

I agree with most of this.

Absolutely hated the trade for Plekanec. Complete waste of a 2nd and he was not useful.

I would have been ok with the Boyle trade if he had resigned, but when he walked as a UFA, again wasn't pleased with it, but I could live with it.

Marleau was necessary to provide a good role model on and off the ice for our talented but young new core. He was fine for 2 years, but the 3rd year that made it a stinker. Would rather have paid more for the 2 years.

2 traded 2nd round picks, 2 traded 1st round picks in the past 3 years, and all we have to show is Muzzin (who I like very much)......

....... I hope we are done doing that. We are very good at drafting now, and those picks are what are going to be our pipeline of ELC and talent moving forward.

Spezza provides everything Marleau did on and off the ice for 700k. There's 0 justification for the Marleau contract.

 

[Doublerum1975]

Spezza provides everything Marleau did on and off the ice for 700k. There's 0 justification for the Marleau contract.

I think he's playing way better than marleau to

 

[Big Muddy]

The actual value of a 2nd round pick is much less than people think. Just because something can happen, doesn't mean it does very often. The Leafs have drafted extremely well with the picks they have had over the last few years, and have two young blue chip defensemen on ELCs pushing their way into the NHL.

Lots of talk about that one pick we didn't have, and no consideration for what it gained us, how we did with our other picks, other prospects we have found outside the draft system, etc.

Experience and entertainment, and a chance at the cup.

Every year you don't win the cup is not a waste. NHL teams do not throw away chances at the playoffs for fairly insignificant assets. If that's what you're expecting, expect to be disappointed by every GM we or any team ever has.

One pick?

And, I have the TSN article on picks and their chances of becoming an NHL player and/or a top 6 F, top 4 D.

And, we weren't really talking throwing away the chance at making the playoffs. We were talking about winning more rounds by trading assets for 4Cs. Looks like we achieved nothing towards that goal. Perhaps being surprised by this outcome is the thing that warrants more attention which is what I think we are talking about.

OK, same tactics I guess.

 

[blue stick]

I think he's playing way better than marleau to

would've been nice for Marleau to pot a couple against the Lightning last night...