Post-Game Talk: Thank Hutch

[Kamiccolo]

I get it but "everyone" ?? I find that hard to believe.

Not literally every single person but last night's panel is the perfect example. They trash his "defensive" play when it wasn't even a good clip for it. Then a vocal group emerges with the narrative, and stations pander to these people for views because they are who engages the most and therefore the most profitable group.

It spreads on social media. Just give it until next season and you will see, they will rip apart Sandin's game defensively, and then wish they had Makar.. Who makes the same mistakes but they never get spoken about.

 

[Stephen]

If we got Makar everyone here would rip him apart for his defensive play and for being soft. Heiskanen would have been torn apart here too. None of our kids are ever as good as the other kids. The grass is always greener in Toronto.

That would be patently untrue. Take the Sandin love and multiply it by a factor of a near PPG rookie season rivaling Rielly's career year, and that's Makar.

What you're saying is a reaction against people's tendencies to rip on offensive defensemen like Barrie and Gardiner. But those guys are dreadful defensive players who trade offensive production for defensive instability. So your point is null and void.

 

[rimshot]

Legitimate question here. How can you be so sure that they did benefit?

Matthews and Marner were widely regarded as very good young boys who were extremely serious about their craft. Neither of them had any kind of controversy or bad reputation at any level. They weren't Ho-Sang. I'd argue that if anything we've seen a negative trend there. The Matthews saga from the summer, the Marner drama behind the scenes. If Marleau was a terrific role model and mentor, that stuff shouldn't happen.

We essentially have two young good boys that grew into two young, mostly good professionals in a league where that's par for the course, even without the veteran mentorship.

Personally, I would rather have had Leivo and the cap space as a further asset.

And yet so many people claim that the Oilers were irresponsible in not providing veteran leadership for a very young and talented team and their frustrations have stemmed from that lack of leadership and not from lacking one replacement level player and more cap space. You are entitled to your opinion but I would point out that it is likely far from the opinion of most observers and even further from that of Matthews and Marner.

 

[ruaware41]

They made the playoffs by one point. Boyle was good for us. That experience was worth it.

It wasn't early in the rebuild. We had multiple high picks and multiple franchise talents in the organization and on the team.

I don't think they should have given Marleau 3 years, but the idea behind signing a player like Marleau was not wrong.

Problem is, people view any moves done for a better chance at a cup as useless unless you win a cup, but if you went by that theory and never did the things that moved you towards a cup or gave you that type of experience, you'd never win a cup. Even for the best teams, the chance of winning a cup is low.

Yes but it was also their first real playoff run. So arguably at that point they weren't full blown contenders as history proved regardless of how close it was in that first round. First round of a playoff series after a long time, I think it's fair to say you should still be looking to focus on long term assets.

I understand the idea of signing a veteran to show the ways but idk how much merit it has. And then the question becomes if they are signing someone like that they should sign someone who plays intense every night and wasn't lambasted by a former teammate for half assing it.

I don't have a problem with teams making a move to go for a cup if that is where they are at as a team and that's how they see themselves at that timeframe. Even if it doesn't work out. I'm not one to use hindsight to bash what was otherwise a good decision at the time despite the outcome. I personally felt like we were bleeding too many assets, as Nithonniel put and getting too greedy too early on at a time when the chances for a cup were way way too slim and could have focused more on the medium term than that playoff run. It's subjective, there's no real right answer.

Oh yeah, we were definitely bleeding assets there for a while for no good reason.

Yea felt like we were getting too greedy. Lou did have a few nice moves. I think the Zaitsev bet was reasonable and I could see the merits behind it at the time, it just didn't work out. Rielly and Kadri contracts were steals too.

A couple of things I've noticed since my limited time being here. People will try to back up their position by making exaggerated claims to distort the issue at hand. Some people dislike any kind of thinking that challenges the management regime no matter how thoughtful & reasonable the question is. Circle the wagons & defend is the reflexive reaction no matter what.

yea it can get annoying sometimes. A lot of people just want to be definitively right all the time and take discussions too seriously but it is what it is. Even if you acknowledge their points they won't even budge on why you may have reached the conclusions you did. Just let em get the last word in if that's the vibe you're getting and move on.

 

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

Still not really a fan of Hutch but you can't argue with results. 4-0-0, 1.50 GAA, .948 SV% in 4 starts since Keefe took over.

Am I wrong to wonder what kind of messed up mind games Babcock played with our backup goalies since we lost Mac?

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

Backups rarely play in the playoffs so he isn't needed for a deep run.

A backup is needed for ensuring Andersen isn’t burnt out before the playoffs. The playoff race is looking like it will be competitive to the very end again.

 

[A1LeafNation]

A backup is needed for ensuring Andersen isn’t burnt out before the playoffs. The playoff race is looking like it will be competitive to the very end again.

What's hutch numbers under Keefe?

 

[TDotMassive]

Playing backups in the playoffs is extremely rare. Countless good runs have been had and cups have been won on the backs of a single goalie; ones worse than Andersen.

Not with an offensively tilted team like ours... a team designed for offence first needs great goaltending to win a cup. I'm not convinced Freddie is that guy. If he has one of his down streaks in crunch time or the playoffs, we are done. Love Freddie but he has yet to prove himself in big games... I want some insurance. In any case... we need better than Hutch, regardless of his last 4 games.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

What's hutch numbers under Keefe?

Not that great? In has last 5 games all under Keefe he had three games with an under .900 save percentage. He’s looked better but it’s not like he’s a completely different player.

There’s a reason he’s paid almost league minimum.

 

[egd27]

I disagree.

While I wouldn't have lobbied for Marleau, the impact he had on Marner and Matthews specifically, with him taking them in, keeping them out of trouble, letting them see how he prepares, and saving teenage millionaires from being alone in a big city has value. Ask Joffrey Lupul, Tyler Seguin, and Patrick Kane.

We had the cap space, and it was an investment in their long-term personal development.

I don't like their contracts either, but you can blame Dubas and their agents for that. Marleau had nothing to do with it, and it's a little silly to imply he should have been whispering in their ear to take less money. That's on the player's, their families, and the agents.

I admire your attempt at making a reasonable argument, but I suspect you may as well bang your head against a wall,

 

[A1LeafNation]

Not that great? In has last 5 games all under Keefe he had three games with an under .900 save percentage. He’s looked better but it’s not like he’s a completely different player.

There’s a reason he’s paid almost league minimum.

.902 sv% 2.85 gaa since Nov 20.
What ppl expect lol

 

[Suntouchable13]

I disagree.

While I wouldn't have lobbied for Marleau, the impact he had on Marner and Matthews specifically, with him taking them in, keeping them out of trouble, letting them see how he prepares, and saving teenage millionaires from being alone in a big city has value. Ask Joffrey Lupul, Tyler Seguin, and Patrick Kane.

We had the cap space, and it was an investment in their long-term personal development.

I don't like their contracts either, but you can blame Dubas and their agents for that. Marleau had nothing to do with it, and it's a little silly to imply he should have been whispering in their ear to take less money. That's on the player's, their families, and the agents.

I don't know for sure, and none of us really know, but I don't think his impact was worth 6.25M cap hit and the 1st round pick this season to get rid of him. That's just my opinion as I obviously have no way of knowing truly how much impact he had in their development.

 

[leaffaninvancouver]

.902 sv% 2.85 gaa since Nov 20.
What ppl expect lol

He goes to being a below average backup instead of an abysmal one? I’m glad he’s playing better but he’s still not a good backup.

I would be ecstatic to be proven wrong about this, but the last 30 games are going to be a dogfight and I’m worried we’ll limp into the playoffs with an exhausted starter again.

 

[meefer]

It was an unbelievable save, couldnt believe he saw that coming

If so, my apologies to @SAMCRO44 , I missed it entirely.

 

[LeafsOHLRangers98]

He goes to being a below average backup instead of an abysmal one? I’m glad he’s playing better but he’s still not a good backup.

I would be ecstatic to be proven wrong about this, but the last 30 games are going to be a dogfight and I’m worried we’ll limp into the playoffs with an exhausted starter again.

I agree we still need an upgrade but in his 4 starts under Keefe he has been excellent. The two mop up duty games were really ugly though.

Honestly if he can just be a league average goalie this team is in much better shape and takes any leverage away from teams thinking they can get a significant asset out of us for a backup goalie. The Kapanen, or even Bracco and a 2nd stuff is nuts.

A 4th to a 7th round pick depending on the guy is the price we should be looking at to fix the issue. Plenty of veteran guys on expiring contracts that we could get for that price. Just need to clear Ceci's cap first.

 

[WillNy29]

The Marleau signing was essentially an announcement of "The rebuild is over: we're going for it". Every move since has been all about "winning now".

My argument is that this all happened prematurely. There is literally no denying that the leafs would be in a better position right this moment if they focused on the rebuild one more season. Even if everything else failed that last rebuild year (which is unlikely), at the very least we'd still have our current first-round pick.

I was saying, even way back then, that the leafs should use the kids in a more limited role (other than Matthews), and rebuild one more season. This is pretty common for young players, btw (other than 'generational' first overall picks). They play a more limited role over their elc. This would have also helped in keeping their aav's down on their post elc contracts.

Every single thing about this would put the leafs in a better position at the moment.

And none of this is hindsight. I was saying the precise same things 2-3 years ago.

this is really stupid, they saw a veteran who they thought could be a good mentor and signed him...nothing to do with rebuild is over; I'm also quite sure they picked him up after making the playoffs (care to tell me what kind rebuilding team makes the playoffs?); why would you play players who are good less? doesn't that go against meritocracy? that they were good at their craft and earning those minutes? what happens if you keep them playing limited minutes and then you get babcock vs. matthews situations all over the team? is that a good look for a rebuild?

No player with the talent level that matthews and marner had were getting less time than them; hell even they were in a pretty limited role for their talent levels.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Your emphasizing that it was necessary to win it all, the Cup. I don't think people were going to that extreme, but whatever.

Then if we're not winning the cup, we're not getting the end goal, so what's the difference? It's spending assets without getting the end goal. Either you admit that every move is bad if you don't win the cup, which would just result in strategy that would never win a cup, or you admit that there are other reasons than winning it all to spend assets or make moves.

As for your 2nd paragraph, if we are counting on non-NHL source players, getting steals in the draft, etc., its easy to see why all of those things won't continue to happen each year & that it won't be a great strategy long term.

Why does it have to be a strategy that works every time? Nothing works every time. Drafting certainly doesn't work every time. And we haven't traded every draft pick in existence, so we only really have to replace a couple, which we have done with the great drafts and finds we already have. It's not about believing we can do it; it's realizing we've already done it. Despite what picks we have had, we have added to organizational depth at a faster rate than most organizations, so the worry and panic is entirely unnecessary.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Yes but it was also their first real playoff run.

Because it was the 1st year of the core.

So arguably at that point they weren't full blown contenders

Since when is signing a player like Marleau or trading a 2nd round pick a "full blown contender" move?

When you send out half a team of rookies, and you find out you have some of the most dynamic players in the game, with limitless potential, and you've found a starting goalie, and you've already had more high draft picks than pretty much anybody, and you make the playoffs, you don't sit on your hands and wait and see.

By your strategy, neither Chicago or Pittsburgh win their 1st cups.

I think it's fair to say you should still be looking to focus on long term assets.

They did. You can do both.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Not with an offensively tilted team like ours... a team designed for offence first needs great goaltending to win a cup.

I'd argue the opposite. A team that identifies as a defensive team can help their goalie more, but goalies can have bad games any time, no matter what. When a bad offensive team has a goalie have a bad game, they're sunk. When a good offensive team has a goalie have a bad game, you can survive.

 

[goleafsgo1990]

No that comment speaks volumes about you and your lack of hockey knowledge. Not to mention being a fairweather fan. Only Last season Mo was a Norris candidate. He had an injury that he played with until he broke his foot. But now people like you turn on him and his TEAM FRIENDLY deal. One of the few we have in truth.

The only thing overrated is your opinion

Yikes someone is sensitive to the truth...

 

[Nithoniniel]

And yet so many people claim that the Oilers were irresponsible in not providing veteran leadership for a very young and talented team and their frustrations have stemmed from that lack of leadership and not from lacking one replacement level player and more cap space. You are entitled to your opinion but I would point out that it is likely far from the opinion of most observers and even further from that of Matthews and Marner.

Problem for Oilers was never their young talent. Those were doing great off-ice and performing well on-ice. You just can't have success when two thirds of your team is bad relative to their spot in the depth charts. Go back and look at some of those teams and tell me how talented they were.

I don't really care what people claim when the argument is bad. If you build a team that is one of the worst in the league outside a small core, you'll be a bad team. That's exactly what has been the case in Edmonton since they drafted Taylor Hall until now. Lazy narratives don't change that.

 

[Vaive50]

No that comment speaks volumes about you and your lack of hockey knowledge. Not to mention being a fairweather fan. Only Last season Mo was a Norris candidate. He had an injury that he played with until he broke his foot. But now people like you turn on him and his TEAM FRIENDLY deal. One of the few we have in truth.

The only thing overrated is your opinion

Totally agree with you and I also hate how those who are jumping all over Tavares, even though he is just slightly under a PPG pace, it's obvious he is playing with an injury (probably something to do with that hand injury that he missed many games with). These are all the same people that were all over getting rid of Nylander, can't they already see how wrong they were. I even feel that Andersen was playing through an injury of some sort but hopefully it's fully healed now so he can keep playing like he has (or even better) in his last two games.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Well well well. That was the first game under Keefe where I felt I did not get my monies worth. What a crappy game. I mean both teams stunk. It was a night off for most of team. The team really misses Kappy and Dermy. We looked slow. I hope they are both back tonight. We miss them. They bring an energy and a quickness to our team.

That said really impressed with Willy. He showed up when everyone else sh*t da bed except Hutch and Spezza.

Kerfoot, Tavares, Matty and Marner basically mailed it in. Of them all Matty bothers me the most. As our best player he seems like a follower. There are just too many night off. It does not seem to matter whether it is a good or a bad opponent. This has to change. We are in a playoff race and it needs to be addressed.

 

[Sypher04]

Well well well. That was the first game under Keefe where I felt I did not get my monies worth. What a crappy game. I mean both teams stunk. It was a night off for most of team. The team really misses Kappy and Dermy. We looked slow. I hope they are both back tonight. We miss them. They bring an energy and a quickness to our team.

That said really impressed with Willy. He showed up when everyone else sh*t da bed except Hutch and Spezza.

Kerfoot, Tavares, Matty and Marner basically mailed it in. Of them all Matty bothers me the most. As our best player he seems like a follower. There are just too many night off. It does not seem to matter whether it is a good or a bad opponent. This has to change. We are in a playoff race and it needs to be addressed.

deleted, because I accidentally pulled incorrect stats

 

[ruaware41]

Because it was the 1st year of the core.

Since when is signing a player like Marleau or trading a 2nd round pick a "full blown contender" move?

When you send out half a team of rookies, and you find out you have some of the most dynamic players in the game, with limitless potential, and you've found a starting goalie, and you've already had more high draft picks than pretty much anybody, and you make the playoffs, you don't sit on your hands and wait and see.

By your strategy, neither Chicago or Pittsburgh win their 1st cups.

They did. You can do both.

Yea no kidding was the first year of the core. Yes you can do both but one often has implications on the other.

Signing Marleau or acquiring Boyle seemed like an unnecessary move based on greed and going for the kill too early to many including myself. Lots of us felt like the team was not a legit enough contender to make that move at that time. It was only their first playoff run with a sub optimal defence. It's debatable when you go all in or even too in and not a black and white discussion, and for many of us it felt too early. Chicago and Pittsburgh were ahead in their rebuild and found playoff success before the Leafs did.

It's debatable when you think the rebuild is over and you have to time your strikes accordingly. When that time is to go for it is subjective. I know you have some sort of chip on your shoulder and always want to be right on hfboards but most things aren't black and white. Marleau was signed and Boyle was acquired both in hopes of pushing the team over the top. The timing of the Boyle trade and Lou's press conference upon signing Marleau make that evident.

I know in your eyes everything is a black and white topic that you have the answer to so do go ahead and get your last word in that must mean oh so much to you.