Speculation: TDL (02/24) Discussion

[StanleyCup2035]

Free me!!

 

[OrrNumber4]

So let us look at one hypothetical. If next season:

The Sharks don't make the playoffs
OR
Doug Wilson trades a first-round-pick AND the Sharks don't make the SCF

then, IDW should be fired without any more deliberation. Agree or disagree?

 

[STL Shark]

Looks like Chicago is going to capitalize on the Carolina goalie desperation. In deep discussions with Chicago per main board. Lehner and Gustaffson a potential for Carolina in the deal. So would be at least a first rounder going to Chicago and probably more. Guess we hope that Colorado will give up a 4th for Dell and more if Jumbo wants to go there too.

 

[Sharksrule04]

Care to tell me what else he was doing last summer? Because he certainly wasn’t improving this hockey team.

He re-signed the guy everyone here wanted so badly. Then the team was lacking cap space. He got us two 2nd round picks when we initially had 0. What would you have liked him to do?

 

[themelkman]

He re-signed the guy everyone here wanted so badly. Then the team was lacking cap space. He got us two 2nd round picks when we initially had 0. What would you have liked him to do?

Everyone knows he should have got another forward, but Doug trusted the rookies to fill in and they didnt. Everything else was what people wanted

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

He re-signed the guy everyone here wanted so badly. Then the team was lacking cap space. He got us two 2nd round picks when we initially had 0. What would you have liked him to do?

There were forwards available on waivers and for league minimum in UFA that were substantially better than the guys he ran with. Noesen is an example of one of them.

I also think he could've cleared out cap by moving Dillon, Dell, Melker, and somebody else earlier in the season and then making a move.

 

[STL Shark]

There were forwards available on waivers and for league minimum in UFA that were substantially better than the guys he ran with. Noesen is an example of one of them.

I also think he could've cleared out cap by moving Dillon, Dell, Melker, and somebody else earlier in the season and then making a move.

Tell me who was going to take on Dell at $1.9 mil? Who was going to take on Melker? Hell, Dell has played well over the past two months and Melker has been his normal self and I’m not sure anyone will even take them at the TDL with SJ retaining half the contract. Who in the world was going to take those guys in the offseason or early in the season if they won’t even take them now? Also, how were you going to trade Dillon in the offseason with Simek coming off major knee surgery and having no idea what you were getting in Ferraro? Of all the qualms about the offseason, this is about as off base as one can possibly be when it comes to gripes.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Tell me who was going to take on Dell at $1.9 mil? Who was going to take on Melker? Hell, Dell has played well over the past two months and Melker has been his normal self and I’m not sure anyone will even take them at the TDL with SJ retaining half the contract. Who in the world was going to take those guys in the offseason or early in the season if they won’t even take them now? Also, how were you going to trade Dillon in the offseason with Simek coming off major knee surgery and having no idea what you were getting in Ferraro? Of all the qualms about the offseason, this is about as off base as one can possibly be when it comes to gripes.

If you had to attach something to Dell or Melker in order to get rid of them, then you had to do it. You simply couldn't walk into this season with the issues the team had at forward and in goal without a 1st round pick.

 

[Hobocop]

There were forwards available on waivers and for league minimum in UFA that were substantially better than the guys he ran with. Noesen is an example of one of them.

I also think he could've cleared out cap by moving Dillon, Dell, Melker, and somebody else earlier in the season and then making a move.

The opening night lineup this year had Lean Bergmann and Danil Yurtaykin on it. Two new signings that had no track record here, and neither of them are even that effective in the AHL at this point (though that part's obviously hindsight). You can't tell me that DW signed those two to be NHL regulars. So if they weren't supposed to start the season in the NHL, who was? From the start of the season, we were just throwing guys out there to see if they could stick.

I get angrier every time I think of this past offseason. There were very simple things Wilson could have tried to make this a competitive team and instead he just sat on his hands the whole way through. Even if you think the rookies are ready to step up, you can't just assume they are without any real evidence. And there was no evidence at all.

 

[Dicdonya]

The opening night lineup this year had Lean Bergmann and Danil Yurtaykin on it. Two new signings that had no track record here, and neither of them are even that effective in the AHL at this point (though that part's obviously hindsight). You can't tell me that DW signed those two to be NHL regulars. So if they weren't supposed to start the season in the NHL, who was? From the start of the season, we were just throwing guys out there to see if they could stick.

I get angrier every time I think of this past offseason. There were very simple things Wilson could have tried to make this a competitive team and instead he just sat on his hands the whole way through. Even if you think the rookies are ready to step up, you can't just assume they are without any real evidence. And there was no evidence at all.

Out of curiosity, what are the "simple" things he could have done?

I want DW fired possibly more than anyone on these boards, however after signing Karlsson, DW backed himself into a corner, and did not have any simple moves left to get top 6 forward help.

However I am truly curious what you think the simple moves were.

 

[Crazy Joe Divola]

Out of curiosity, what are the "simple" things he could have done?

I want DW fired possibly more than anyone on these boards, however after signing Karlsson, DW backed himself into a corner, and did not have any simple moves left to get top 6 forward help.

However I am truly curious what you think the simple moves were.

1. trade bad players.
2. Sign good players.
3. ?????
4. Profit.

simple

 

[Dicdonya]

1. trade bad players.
2. Sign good players.
3. ?????
4. Profit.

simple

lol yeah that is simple, cant deny that

 

[Hobocop]

Out of curiosity, what are the "simple" things he could have done?

I want DW fired possibly more than anyone on these boards, however after signing Karlsson, DW backed himself into a corner, and did not have any simple moves left to get top 6 forward help.

However I am truly curious what you think the simple moves were.

Sign or claim NHL-level forwards, like JTR said. Look at some of the other contracts that got signed last offseason. Maroon for 900k. Nichushkin for 850k. Boyle for 940k. For that matter, Noesen for 700k. Won't even start to name all the guys who went through waivers in October. I'm not saying they definitely would've signed in SJ for the same, but it's not like those caliber of players were much more expensive than Yurtaykin (925k) and Bergmann (836k), and they could've fit on the opening day roster. Sign a couple. Claim someone. I didn't see any attempt made to give us NHL options, and we have so few of them now because of it. We just sat there, and then looked surprised when we didn't have a full group of NHL-caliber forwards. We have no depth, at all. One injury or suspension and we're suddenly grasping at straws.

I'd have traded Melker if anyone wanted him. Dillon and a pick could've been moved early in the season for the winger we needed after Simek returned since Ferraro had claimed a spot. Although truth be told with things the way they are, I'd absolutely take Dillon back in July 2020 since it's not like we have many options at D still. DeBoer probably should've gone, but he bought some more time with the playoff run.

The roster's a mess with all of our long contracts, but there were things that could've been attempted.

This is just a random aside, but I don't have any idea why we banished the only forward we did sign with NHL experience, Brodzinski, down to the AHL and never gave him another shot. Because that's another guy who was on the roster opening day. Even after all this time and all these call-ups, he's still down there. He wasn't amazing, but he seemed like a guy you'd want as a 13th forward and was competent when he played. Bit of a head-scratcher.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Interesting to think that the smart move might have been to make some space and then take Marleau from TML for their first.

 

[Dicdonya]

Sign or claim NHL-level forwards, like JTR said. Look at some of the other contracts that got signed last offseason. Maroon for 900k. Nichushkin for 850k. Boyle for 940k. For that matter, Noesen for 700k. Won't even start to name all the guys who went through waivers in October. I'm not saying they definitely would've signed in SJ for the same, but it's not like those caliber of players were much more expensive than Yurtaykin (925k) and Bergmann (836k), and they could've fit on the opening day roster. Sign a couple. Claim someone. I didn't see any attempt made to give us NHL options, and we have so few of them now because of it. We just sat there, and then looked surprised when we didn't have a full group of NHL-caliber forwards. We have no depth, at all. One injury or suspension and we're suddenly grasping at straws.

I'd have traded Melker if anyone wanted him. Dillon and a pick could've been moved early in the season for the winger we needed after Simek returned since Ferraro had claimed a spot. Although truth be told with things the way they are, I'd absolutely take Dillon back in July 2020 since it's not like we have many options at D still. DeBoer probably should've gone, but he bought some more time with the playoff run.

The roster's a mess with all of our long contracts, but there were things that could've been attempted.

This is just a random aside, but I don't have any idea why we banished the only forward we did sign with NHL experience, Brodzinski, down to the AHL and never gave him another shot. Because that's another guy who was on the roster opening day. Even after all this time and all these call-ups, he's still down there. He wasn't amazing, but he seemed like a guy you'd want as a 13th forward and was competent when he played. Bit of a head-scratcher.

How does anything you just listed here fix the issue with this team, outside of firing Deboer sooner, which I totally agree with.

Getting a few different bottom 6 players was not going to fix the fact our top 6 had a gaping hole in it. Plus this top 6 already had very little, if any depending on how you view our players, high end skill to compensate for that hole, or really be a cup contender. We needed not just a run of the mil top 6 player, but a pretty darn good one to help elevate our top 6.

Our goal tending, if you are one that believes they are the issue not the coaching/system, was not an easy to fix situation, and is not addressed in your post.

Sure saying we want to trade Melker is painfully simple, but actually trading him? I doubt that is a simple proposition without hurting the team more. Dillon was not someone we could simply get rid of early in the year, because he was arguably our best LD this year, and as you said, Simek was not ready. Plus who trades good top 6 forwards at the beginning of the year, when just about every team thinks they might make the playoffs?

I totally agree the roster is a mess, with tons of long term contracts, and sure we could have attempted plenty of things, I just am pushing back on the idea those things would be simple.

Also to be clear, I totally get your frustration with DW, I am 100% there with you on that, I am just saying I think this cascading dog shit of a season started with a decision a bit earlier in the off season than you seem to, and that DW after making that decision backed his own damn self into a corner, thus making upgrading this team, or building a better balanced team much much harder than it could have been otherwise.

I like Karlsson I really do, in fact a few years ago if you asked me if I could pick one Dman to build a team around, I would pick Karlsson over anyone, but signing him and not trading Burns, while we had a serious lack of talent among our forward group, and a gaping hole in the top 6, with no actual top 6 prospects in the pipeline, and a serious question mark at goalie..... well I think that was not a wonderful decision. It was like buying a second Ferarri, while neglecting to pay for your electric and water bills. DW picked the luxury, over the necessity, and was hoping it would work out, and it very clearly did not, and now he is in a horrible position to fix it.

 

[Hobocop]

How does anything you just listed here fix the issue with this team, outside of firing Deboer sooner, which I totally agree with.

Getting a few different bottom 6 players was not going to fix the fact our top 6 had a gaping hole in it. Plus this top 6 already had very little, if any depending on how you view our players, high end skill to compensate for that hole, or really be a cup contender. We needed not just a run of the mil top 6 player, but a pretty darn good one to help elevate our top 6.

Our goal tending, if you are one that believes they are the issue not the coaching/system, was not an easy to fix situation, and is not addressed in your post.

Sure saying we want to trade Melker is painfully simple, but actually trading him? I doubt that is a simple proposition without hurting the team more. Dillon was not someone we could simply get rid of early in the year, because he was arguably our best LD this year, and as you said, Simek was not ready. Plus who trades good top 6 forwards at the beginning of the year, when just about every team thinks they might make the playoffs?

I totally agree the roster is a mess, with tons of long term contracts, and sure we could have attempted plenty of things, I just am pushing back on the idea those things would be simple.

Also to be clear, I totally get your frustration with DW, I am 100% there with you on that, I am just saying I think this cascading dog shit of a season started with a decision a bit earlier in the off season than you seem to, and that DW after making that decision backed his own damn self into a corner, thus making upgrading this team, or building a better balanced team much much harder than it could have been otherwise.

I like Karlsson I really do, in fact a few years ago if you asked me if I could pick one Dman to build a team around, I would pick Karlsson over anyone, but signing him and not trading Burns, while we had a serious lack of talent among our forward group, and a gaping hole in the top 6, with no actual top 6 prospects in the pipeline, and a serious question mark at goalie..... well I think that was not a wonderful decision. It was like buying a second Ferarri, while neglecting to pay for your electric and water bills. DW picked the luxury, over the necessity, and was hoping it would work out, and it very clearly did not, and now he is in a horrible position to fix it.

I think you and I both agree DeBoer was the main thing that needed to go. The team needed a different system, and still needs one today. That by itself could've done some wonders, but even that could have used some new personnel. What I'd like to see from this team next year is more physicality, and we sure don't have that available. But that's a whole other topic.

I did specify to trade Dillon after Simek was back. Anything before that would've been a disaster because, again, we have no depth. All of a sudden we'd have Jake Middleton up again. It's a huge gulf between our NHL defensemen and our AHL guys.

So I should probably clarify what I'm saying: DeBoer was the big one to me. Maybe we're having a different conversation today if he was removed. And I should also say that any season in which we wind up with Hertl, Couture, and Karlsson on the shelf is probably going to end in a bad time. But there wasn't any reason DW couldn't finish filling out the rest of our roster to start the season. There wasn't an effort to get better. The Karlsson signing handcuffed us, but you still need to try to acquire some depth scoring. Our broadcasts keep touting how Barclay Goodrow has played in all these forward positions. Yeah, it's because we have literally nobody else to plug holes with.

It's too late for this season, but next season, we really do need to look at signing some NHL depth. You may not like the names I gave out, but they're still contributing, which is not something that the rotating door of rookies is doing for the most part. DW thinking offense is just going to materialize out of our AHL ranks or prospects coming out of junior in the offseason is nonsense.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

A goalie is valued much higher than a 34 year old 2nd/3rd line tweeter right wing.

I think you got the wrong ward... We're talking about Cam Ward, Stanley cup winning goaltender for the Hurricanes.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

You said "As far as Ward and Jones... they are very much comparable despite the RFA, UFA status."

I beg you, get a dictionary, look up the word comparable, and get back to me with how Jones and Ward were comparable in any way, shape, or form at the time they signed their contracts. (hint: they were not at all)

You keep trying to argue that Jones is overpaid, fine I do not even disagree with that per se, however just because he is overpaid, does not mean he is a comparable to Ward.

Whooossshhhh... right over your head. It's cool man, just let it go. You missed it and I'm done trying to help you understand.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

Just for conversation sake, Burns gives the Sharks 3 teams every year that he would allow to be traded to.....what 3 teams do you think they are this year?

Dallas has to be one right? Where is he from? Does he want to be close to his ranch? Tampa maybe? I would bet no Canadian teams.

 

[Dicdonya]

Whooossshhhh... right over your head. It's cool man, just let it go. You missed it and I'm done trying to help you understand.

Lmao ok buddy, keep using words incorrectly and then pretending like its others lack of comprehension causing the disconnect.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

How does anything you just listed here fix the issue with this team, outside of firing Deboer sooner, which I totally agree with.

Getting a few different bottom 6 players was not going to fix the fact our top 6 had a gaping hole in it. Plus this top 6 already had very little, if any depending on how you view our players, high end skill to compensate for that hole, or really be a cup contender. We needed not just a run of the mil top 6 player, but a pretty darn good one to help elevate our top 6.

Our goal tending, if you are one that believes they are the issue not the coaching/system, was not an easy to fix situation, and is not addressed in your post.

Sure saying we want to trade Melker is painfully simple, but actually trading him? I doubt that is a simple proposition without hurting the team more. Dillon was not someone we could simply get rid of early in the year, because he was arguably our best LD this year, and as you said, Simek was not ready. Plus who trades good top 6 forwards at the beginning of the year, when just about every team thinks they might make the playoffs?

I totally agree the roster is a mess, with tons of long term contracts, and sure we could have attempted plenty of things, I just am pushing back on the idea those things would be simple.

Also to be clear, I totally get your frustration with DW, I am 100% there with you on that, I am just saying I think this cascading dog shit of a season started with a decision a bit earlier in the off season than you seem to, and that DW after making that decision backed his own damn self into a corner, thus making upgrading this team, or building a better balanced team much much harder than it could have been otherwise.

I like Karlsson I really do, in fact a few years ago if you asked me if I could pick one Dman to build a team around, I would pick Karlsson over anyone, but signing him and not trading Burns, while we had a serious lack of talent among our forward group, and a gaping hole in the top 6, with no actual top 6 prospects in the pipeline, and a serious question mark at goalie..... well I think that was not a wonderful decision. It was like buying a second Ferarri, while neglecting to pay for your electric and water bills. DW picked the luxury, over the necessity, and was hoping it would work out, and it very clearly did not, and now he is in a horrible position to fix it.

Well, we agree on most of this. The one thing that isn't discussed is that I think DW did have a plan prior to EK65 becoming available and that threw a wrench in it for a player he (and most here) felt he couldn't pass up. After trading for him of course he has to sign him long term and that salary messed up whatever cap plan he had. I think he hoped the young guys would prove worthy so he didn't have to do anything major to the roster yet but that failed miserably so now he has to do it the hard way. It was probably a sink or swim season in his mind but I doubt he thought so many other parts of the team would fail so miserably (goaltending, team defense, Meier, Labanc etc etc...) which is obviously a lack of perception or whatever you want to call it. I think we won't actually know what he's planning until the UFA period and it'll probably be later in that period after he trades a couple guys and makes space. I bet his biggest move is at the draft though and that will involve one of Burns, Vlasic or Jones. They're going to need a top 6 center until Hertl can take over that role again which may not be until after Christmas. I really hope he dumps some more UFAs on Monday though for picks to trade later for roster players.

 

[Dicdonya]

Well, we agree on most of this. The one thing that isn't discussed is that I think DW did have a plan prior to EK65 becoming available and that threw a wrench in it for a player he (and most here) felt he couldn't pass up. After trading for him of course he has to sign him long term and that salary messed up whatever cap plan he had. I think he hoped the young guys would prove worthy so he didn't have to do anything major to the roster yet but that failed miserably so now he has to do it the hard way. It was probably a sink or swim season in his mind but I doubt he thought so many other parts of the team would fail so miserably (goaltending, team defense, Meier, Labanc etc etc...) which is obviously a lack of perception or whatever you want to call it. I think we won't actually know what he's planning until the UFA period and it'll probably be later in that period after he trades a couple guys and makes space. I bet his biggest move is at the draft though and that will involve one of Burns, Vlasic or Jones. They're going to need a top 6 center until Hertl can take over that role again which may not be until after Christmas. I really hope he dumps some more UFAs on Monday though for picks to trade later for roster players.

I agree with what you have said here. The only disagreement we have about DW is how much faith we put in his ability to fix this mess, and whether or not we want to cut him slack for creating it in the first place.

 

[Nth Turtle Reborn]

Interesting to think that the smart move might have been to make some space and then take Marleau from TML for their first.

So paying Marleau what we ALL knew he would not be worth in that 3rd year instead of the pennies we're giving him this year for what is essentially a shadow of his former self, in order to get a TML 1st that wasn't likely (offseason) to be a top10 pick?

And making space to absorb Marleau's original contract, with the inflexibilty we have, contracts wise, Holy Shnikeys! Are you trying to give us nightmares?
Hasn't this season been traumatic enough without making Patty a target for resentment/hatred instead of the pity most are feeling?

Erm, I'd say 'no thanks' but polite like.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

I agree with what you have said here. The only disagreement we have about DW is how much faith we put in his ability to fix this mess, and whether or not we want to cut him slack for creating it in the first place.

What choice do we have? We can sit here and cry and demand his firing which we have no power to affect, or we can speculate on what is possible for him to fix the problems. I mean feel free to rail away at him but I'm not sure anyone that matters is listening. I prefer to look at his overall record with the roster and choose to give him the benefit of the doubt for this off season. I don't base my opinion on if he's won a cup. Too much luck involved especially when it comes to injuries. This is just a shit year that couldn't have gone much worse so I'm writing it off and looking forward to an entertaining off season where they will likely get at least a couple new players for me to watch. Like I said previously, if he screws the pooch this off season then I'll be there with you bitchin about him and calling for his head on a spike. But I just don't see that happening because I don't think he's that dumb. I definitely cut him some slack. He traded for and resigned Kane and EK65 in the last few years and let Pavs go instead of paying him that stupid contract. Those were smart moves considering the stated goal of trying to keep the teams window open. A lot of what happened this year was out of his control. The PDB thing I even understand because of the conference finals run last season. Seemed like the team was pulling out of their nose dive in November and then suddenly they weren't.

 

[Nth Turtle Reborn]

What choice do we have? We can sit here and cry and demand his firing which we have no power to affect, or we can speculate on what is possible for him to fix the problems. I mean feel free to rail away at him but I'm not sure anyone that matters is listening. I prefer to look at his overall record with the roster and choose to give him the benefit of the doubt for this off season. I don't base my opinion on if he's won a cup. Too much luck involved especially when it comes to injuries. This is just a shit year that couldn't have gone much worse so I'm writing it off and looking forward to an entertaining off season where they will likely get at least a couple new players for me to watch. Like I said previously, if he screws the pooch this off season then I'll be there with you bitchin about him and calling for his head on a spike. But I just don't see that happening because I don't think he's that dumb. I definitely cut him some slack. He traded for and resigned Kane and EK65 in the last few years and let Pavs go instead of paying him that stupid contract. Those were smart moves considering the stated goal of trying to keep the teams window open. A lot of what happened this year was out of his control. The PDB thing I even understand because of the conference finals run last season. Seemed like the team was pulling out of their nose dive in November and then suddenly they weren't.

Yuppers, November's flash in the pan was in spite of PDB, I think the animosity directed at DW stems from 2 huge gaffs in the offseason, staying put with Jones & PDB, the contract given to Jones was unprecedented as far as DW's moves to that point, it still baffles me & made that a real tough situation to fix, hard to move that contract without the associated pain of giving up an important piece.

Doug's loyalty and fairness to his coaches is a problem.

But i'm of a like-mind regarding this season being an out of control aberration as opposed to the norm in DW's tenure.

When your car gets t-boned at an intersection (injuries this year) regardless if you're one of the best drivers in the world, it's a case of close your eyes, try to breathe, relax & hope this isn't gonna result in permanent damage to you, the car can hopefully be salvaged.

But when your mechanic (PDB, T-Mac, RonnieWilson) is repeatedly sending you out & your clutch is slipping, your brakes are spongey & your exhaust vomits clouds of black smoke, find a new freaking mechanic. You're listening too hard to the assurances he's giving you & not recognising he's not doing you or your vehicle the service you believe.

As analogies go, it's not perfect, but if DW's next offseason is another 'it'll all work out/staying put' approach & we crap the bed again, it's time to find a new driver.