Helene St. James Tatar the latest Detroit castoff to disappoint

[izlez]

Wait,

we have an article that says "all of these Red Wings draft picks that were garbage for the Red Wings are also garbage on other teams, so I guess they were always just bad players that the Red Wings drafted and developed"

and we are complaining that the media is always overly positive of the organization?

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Wait,

we have an article that says "all of these Red Wings draft picks that were garbage for the Red Wings are also garbage on other teams, so I guess they were always just bad players that the Red Wings drafted and developed"

and we are complaining that the media is always overly positive of the organization?

But they are running Tatar because he is no longer a member of the organization. I really don't like when they do this, they are gone time to stop talking about it, wish them well. Don't have HSJ do hit pieces about it.

@tsweeney that is fine and I understand it. I expect more than what I got out of HSJ during the Cleary saga. I expect more than I have gotten during other times. Because I expect more, I generally don't put a ton into reading her. The reason I am forced to is for the information you talked about lineups and things of that nature. I think Khan does a better job at being that than she does but again that is just opinion.

I am not asking for New York, Toronto or Boston, but I do want people held accountable. Our beat writers are afraid to bite the hand that feeds them. It is funny you bring up Valenti as he is barred from a few pro sports teams in town because he is too mean to them which is embarrassing really. But I think as a market we do what we are told a lot and I don't like it over the years. Yes that is good when times are good, but I don't think it accelerates us out of the bad. It took Ilitch falling on his face with the Tigers and being called to the carpet several times for him to do better there. I am not sure some heat isn't a good thing.

 

[lilidk]

We got Veleno for Tatar last year. Who did we get for him last draft?

 

[Ezekial]

We got Veleno for Tatar last year. Who did we get for him last draft?

Mastrosimone

 

[kliq]

We got Veleno for Tatar last year. Who did we get for him last draft?

Robert Mastrosimone

 

[Henkka]

So its currently:

Tatar
<>
Veleno
Mastrosimone
3rd 2021

 

[Hatter of the Beach]

So its currently:

Tatar
<>
Veleno
Mastrosimone
3rd 2021

I love Tatar, but this trade is already a huge win asset wise, especially given the direction of our team. Tatar at 5ish million for a few years wouldn't be a bad contract in a vaccum, but would limit mobility.

Miss the guy all the same though.

 

[MBH]

But they are running Tatar because he is no longer a member of the organization. I really don't like when they do this, they are gone time to stop talking about it, wish them well. Don't have HSJ do hit pieces about it.

@tsweeney that is fine and I understand it. I expect more than what I got out of HSJ during the Cleary saga. I expect more than I have gotten during other times. Because I expect more, I generally don't put a ton into reading her. The reason I am forced to is for the information you talked about lineups and things of that nature. I think Khan does a better job at being that than she does but again that is just opinion.

I am not asking for New York, Toronto or Boston, but I do want people held accountable. Our beat writers are afraid to bite the hand that feeds them. It is funny you bring up Valenti as he is barred from a few pro sports teams in town because he is too mean to them which is embarrassing really. But I think as a market we do what we are told a lot and I don't like it over the years. Yes that is good when times are good, but I don't think it accelerates us out of the bad. It took Ilitch falling on his face with the Tigers and being called to the carpet several times for him to do better there. I am not sure some heat isn't a good thing.

Lots of beat writers do this.
They can't afford to be edgy while player/coach/GM is in town. It might make for some uncomfortable road trips.
So as soon as they leave, they unleash.

Look at the smear job Russo did on the Minnesota GM.
Some of his greatest crimes? Not respecting "Faces of Minnesota Wild Hockey" like Andrew f***ing Brunette and Darby f***ing Hendrickson.
WTF?

You bring in a star GM like Fenton was supposed to be, and you get upset because he offends a couple hangers-on?

 

[MBH]

I love Tatar, but this trade is already a huge win asset wise, especially given the direction of our team. Tatar at 5ish million for a few years wouldn't be a bad contract in a vaccum, but would limit mobility.

Miss the guy all the same though.

I love Veleno.
I think Mastrimone has some nice upside.

But let's let one of them actually do something before we call it a win.

Tatar at $4.75M - scoring a career high 58 points playing 16 minutes a night.

And check out those 5 on 5 numbers.
1.11 goals/60 is a terrific number. (3rd on MTL) (AA led Detroit at 1.22)
2.66 points/60 is a terrific number. (3rd on MTL) (Bertuzzi led Detroit at 2.14)
58.93 CF% is Datsyukian. (2nd on MTL) (Mantha led Detroit at 54)

Career wise...
Tatar's 1.11 goals/60 was his second best, behind the 1.14 he scored in 13-14.
Tatar's 2.66 points/60 was his career best by a mile.
58.93 CF% is his tied for his best ever (playing more than 20 games), trying 14-15.
His GF% was 64.52 - another Datsyuklan number, beating his career bests (when playing next to Datsyuk)

I don't know of Montreal has a bad powerplay or what.
But Tatar, even if he backslides at 5 on 5, should be able to maintain his overall stats with just a bit more production on the PP.

I probably only watched five Montreal games last year, so I can't say this with authority. But Tatar's stats make it look like he's EXACTLY the kind of player we hoped he'd be after his promising start.

 

[Fil Larkmanthanasiou]

 

[Oddbob]

Lots of beat writers do this.
They can't afford to be edgy while player/coach/GM is in town. It might make for some uncomfortable road trips.
So as soon as they leave, they unleash.

Look at the smear job Russo did on the Minnesota GM.
Some of his greatest crimes? Not respecting "Faces of Minnesota Wild Hockey" like Andrew ****ing Brunette and Darby ****ing Hendrickson.
WTF?

You bring in a star GM like Fenton was supposed to be, and you get upset because he offends a couple hangers-on?

Who said he was a Star GM in the making? He was known as a good-great scout, the two jobs many times don't correlate. Also, he was known in just a year in charge of being an idiot or jerk to much of the staff. There are a number of people suggesting this. Also, he seems to have been fired, because he wasn't good at the boring parts of the job, like man power placement and assignments. Most of the owners complaints were directed at day to day operations as opposed to trading, signing and drafting etc. He even said he was an excellent scout, but wasn't so good at the management part.

 

[Oddbob]

The Tatar trade is only a win IF one of the 3 players we get for him, turns into a 50+ pt player. It becomes less of a win for anything much less than that.

 

[TheMule93]

The Tatar trade is only a win IF one of the 3 players we get for him, turns into a 50+ pt player. It becomes less of a win for anything much less than that.

It was a good trade even if the players we drafted turn out horribly

 

[lilidk]

It was a good trade even if the players we drafted turn out horribly

Then Nyquist was even better trade?

 

[SimonEdvinssonAtSix]

The Tatar trade is only a win IF one of the 3 players we get for him, turns into a 50+ pt player. It becomes less of a win for anything much less than that.

No.
This was a win the minute the deal went through.
A 1st, 2nd and 3rd round pick for a 50 point winger is a flawless victory.

 

[TheMule93]

Then Nyquist was even better trade?

no, that's an odd conclusion to jump to

 

[Frk It]

Mastrosimone

Ironic... my comp for him has been Tatar too.

 

[ShelbyZ]

No.
This was a win the minute the deal went through.
A 1st, 2nd and 3rd round pick for a 50 point winger is a flawless victory.

I think it's also key to note that a 50 point winger is what Tatar was supposed to be, but he hadn't done so for over two seasons. He was also on pace to hit around 35/36 points when he was traded and had gone through multiple lengthy scoring droughts.

If they don't trade him at that TDL, they're scrambling to get something for him at the draft before his NTC kicks in on 7/1/18 and he gets harder to move. I doubt they get the same return they got from Vegas.

It was a good trade even if the players we drafted turn out horribly

It's also entirely possible that before those guys turn into anything measureable at the NHL level, one could end up packaged in a deal that brings a needed elite player, which would also still be considered a win.

 

[vladdy16]

It is incredible how in this thread, it apparently remains to be seen if this was even a good deal, and in every other thread 'Holland never did enough to accelerate/accomodate a rebuild.'

The definition of incredible really.

 

[Ezekial]

Ironic... my comp for him has been Tatar too.

I love him already

 

[vladdy16]

Mastrosimone is way grimier than Tatar. I'm a Tatar fan but I mean that mostly in a good way.

I think mastrosimone has way more potential as a forechecker and checker in general than Tatar, who has underrated neutral zone d, but not much of a forecheckimg or shadowing presence.

Underdog Zuccarello, or like a Zuc/Maltby hybrid is the comp i'd go with.

 

[newfy]

It was a good trade even if the players we drafted turn out horribly

Yep.

Right now Veleno alone is a pretty high end prospect. If the wings offered a team Veleno, a second and third ni a trade it would hold more value than Tatar by himself. If those guys turn out horribly and Steve doesnt cut them loose before their value is gone it could enmd up a bad trade. Right now the wings are better off asset wise

 

[Retire91]

It is incredible how in this thread, it apparently remains to be seen if this was even a good deal, and in every other thread 'Holland never did enough to accelerate/accomodate a rebuild.'

The definition of incredible really.

The chief complaint I have isn't about what Holland did for the rebuild, its that he started rebuilding 5-6 years after it was obvious it was needed and what he did during those 5-6 years that is still dragging the team down

 

[Yooper906]

What helps the value of the trade on the Red Wings side, is that Veleno dropped so far in the draft. I believe we got a good return in the Tatar deal before we made any picks. And the fact that veleno dropped to us and we got a high end prospect just made it that much better.

 

[HockeyinHD]

The chief complaint I have isn't about what Holland did for the rebuild, its that he started rebuilding 5-6 years after it was obvious it was needed and what he did during those 5-6 years that is still dragging the team down

He did that to facilitate snaking well over a quarter billion dollars in cash and considerations from the always on the ball city of Detroit. Had he torched the team in 2011 or 2012 there's no chance at all the city gives the team anywhere near that amount in year 2 of a burn to the ground rebuild.