Helene St. James Tatar the latest Detroit castoff to disappoint

ricky0034

Registered User
Jun 8, 2010
14,863
6,943
You're yelling at your own strawman.

You dont get to decide what another persons argument is, and then get upset when it's too nuanced or mundane to be combative over.

It's simple. "Ownership probably placed constraints on the GM's freedom of choice" is a common sense statement that requires no insight/position on the GM's personal point of view.

Way too much conversation on these boards revolves around, "well if I was the GM, AND I was vested with the powers i'm used to a GM having in NHL19/EHM/FHM, then everything would have happened differently"

It's important to stay realistic about what mitigating and contributing factors are abound, and also to stay realistic about what can possibly be a "known/known" and what can't.

so if Chiarelli had offered Holland McDavid for Abdelkader 2 years ago and news came out tomorrow that Holland said no would "Katz would have probably just vetoed it anyways" be an acceptable excuse for Holland in your opinion?
 

vladdy16

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
2,551
375
so if Chiarelli had offered Holland McDavid for Abdelkader 2 years ago and news came out tomorrow that Holland said no would "Katz would have probably just vetoed it anyways" be an acceptable excuse for Holland in your opinion?

No.

All I can see your hypothetical proving is that being presumptuous about an unknown is self defeating.

What exactly are you trying to imply/prove through that hypothetical?
 

ricky0034

Registered User
Jun 8, 2010
14,863
6,943
No.

All I can see your hypothetical proving is that being presumptuous about an unknown is self defeating.

What exactly are you trying to imply/prove through that hypothetical?

that making up mitigating factors that may or may not even exist does nothing to wash away a GMs mistakes
 

vladdy16

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
2,551
375
that making up mitigating factors that may or may not even exist does nothing to wash away a GMs mistakes

Nobody is 'making up' the fact that Holland didnt own the team. It's not a may or may not situation in regards to that argument.
 

kliq

Registered User
Dec 17, 2017
2,727
1,319
that making up mitigating factors that may or may not even exist does nothing to wash away a GMs mistakes

Nothing was made up, and I was never talking individual moves. The Abby contract, helm contract, Nielsen contract etc. were all on Holland and were all awful moves. I don’t look at Holland and blindly love him or blindly hate him.

This entire conversation started with acknowledging the fact that Illitch didn't want to re-build which from all accounts was true. Heck, reports stated that’s he fired DD from the Tigers for wanting to do it. If I were saying “you can't blame Holland for the Legwand trade” or “you can’t blame Holland for the Abby contract” I could see your point. But overall direction of a business (ie. stay competitive vs trade all stars and re-build) is dictated by ownership, anyone who can’t understand that is either just clueless to business in the real world, or so angry at Holland that they refuse to accept reality. Acknowledging this is not saying that Holland did no wrong.
 
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