Speculation: Summer Baggage Thread

[henchman21]

If you are willing to compare Barrie, Z, and Mack to giving Greer 16 minutes in his first night in the NHL, and his first pro season, in November, then we are at an impasse. That's probably obvious at this point though.

As far as Bennett goes, you are king when it comes to taking a subject and blowing it up using few words. I don't think expecting Bennett to help Bednar install actual NHL tactics in the offensive zone is expecting too much lol. All I said on that was that it might help in bringing some of our players production up to an acceptable level. Someone that has a damn clue about how to run a power play should make large strides there.

I don't speak at length where I don't have a ton of knowledge, and in this case... I've derailed things quite a bit. I don't know Bennett all that well. I know a number of people that like him quite a bit. He isn't known as an offensive innovator though, and he hasn't been behind the bench in years (I could be wrong but 2012 or 2013 was when he was last behind the bench IIRC). To expect him to come in and make huge strides, that is likely asking too much from the guy. I'm not saying he will be bad... I'm just saying temper the expectations.

Bednar does have NHL tactics... I know that will sound crazy based on my dislike for his coaching, but the systems are not the issue (there are really not than many effective hockey systems... teams mostly play variations of the same 5/6 systems... the most exotic thing in the NHL right now is Ottawa's 1-3-1). The Avs are trying to play like Winnipeg, but the team is WAY to rigid and Bednar simply has no idea how to adjust. His whole thing is work harder, skate faster to make the system work. When players are not capable, he doesn't adjust... he punishes. That simply doesn't work in the NHL. Tailoring the team might bring the team up from being historically bad to bottom 5, but no amount of tailoring will overcome Bednar's philosophies and individual coaching.

 

[Pokecheque]

There's some real mythologizing of Cody McLeod going on here. Dude wasn't that good anymore. He had a one-year resurgence of sorts when they finally put somewhat decent talent on his line (Mitchell and Skille replacing Cliche and Talbot) but he was still horribly one-dimensional and could shelter him a bit, but otherwise he really didn't contribute a ton. Good for him going to a team that could do an even better job sheltering him than the depleted Avs could, but that doesn't mean he suddenly became a better player or that he's still anything more than a fringe NHLer at this point.

Yes, the guy literally bled for the uniform, I get that. But fact is, players like him can and should be replaced after a time. The fact that they failed to is more of an indictment of management's terrible track record developing talent, even a friggin' grinder than it is on Bednar.

 

[CobraAcesS]

I don't speak at length where I don't have a ton of knowledge, and in this case... I've derailed things quite a bit. I don't know Bennett all that well. I know a number of people that like him quite a bit. He isn't known as an offensive innovator though, and he hasn't been behind the bench in years (I could be wrong but 2012 or 2013 was when he was last behind the bench IIRC). To expect him to come in and make huge strides, that is likely asking too much from the guy. I'm not saying he will be bad... I'm just saying temper the expectations.

Bednar does have NHL tactics... I know that will sound crazy based on my dislike for his coaching, but the systems are not the issue (there are really not than many effective hockey systems teams mostly play variations of the same 5/6 systems... the most exotic thing in the NHL right now is Ottawa's 1-3-1). The Avs are trying to play like Winnipeg, but the team is WAY to rigid and Bednar simply has no idea how to adjust. His whole thing is work harder, skate faster to make the system work. When players are not capable, he doesn't adjust... he punishes. That simply doesn't work in the NHL. Tailoring the team might bring the team up from being historically bad to bottom 5, but no amount of tailoring will overcome Bednar's philosophies and individual coaching.

See that last part is all I'm really trying to say lol. I think the team is going to be tailored to him much more. Not in a way that it's a long term build the team around Bednar way, but that he'll have motivated kids who will do what he asks

The positive is only to the level that I and others may be able to stomach watching the team next season. It got really bad there for a while, but I seen some hockey I can enjoy when both Compher and Jost were on the team.

I totally understand educating people around here, but this is a mantle you and others have beaten to a pulp IMO.

Edit : When I talk about offense, all I'm wishing for is a power play that isn't horrifying to watch, some set plays other than dump and chase, and loosening the reigns on Barrie. Bennett should be able to influence those areas with his experience alone.

 

[henchman21]

There's some real mythologizing of Cody McLeod going on here. Dude wasn't that good anymore. He had a one-year resurgence of sorts when they finally put somewhat decent talent on his line (Mitchell and Skille replacing Cliche and Talbot) but he was still horribly one-dimensional and could shelter him a bit, but otherwise he really didn't contribute a ton. Good for him going to a team that could do an even better job sheltering him than the depleted Avs could, but that doesn't mean he suddenly became a better player or that he's still anything more than a fringe NHLer at this point.

Yes, the guy literally bled for the uniform, I get that. But fact is, players like him can and should be replaced after a time. The fact that they failed to is more of an indictment of management's terrible track record developing talent, even a friggin' grinder than it is on Bednar.

McLeod went right back to his normal production when he went to Nashville. He isn't a great player, no 4th liners are. He is a great vet and a great glue guy. Those players have value. I don't disagree that his time had passed, and that the Avs needed to move on at some point. There is just a respectful way to do it. If Bednar had went to a respectful route, I'd bet the lockeroom and vets would have responded better. This wasn't just Cody either though. Mitchell, Comeau (I don't buy the early injury thing 100%), Mitchell, Soda, and Colborne all went through different levels. Some had more merit than others. Bednar was in way over his head when dealing with vets.

 

[henchman21]

See that last part is all I'm really trying to say lol. I think the team is going to be tailored to him much more. Not in a way that it's a long term build the team around Bednar way, but that he'll have motivated kids who will do what he asks

The positive is only to the level that I and others may be able to stomach watching the team next season. It got really bad there for a while, but I seen some hockey I can enjoy when both Compher and Jost were on the team.

I totally understand educating people around here, but this is a mantle you and others have beaten to a pulp IMO.

Edit : When I talk about offense, all I'm wishing for is a power play that isn't horrifying to watch, some set plays other than dump and chase, and loosening the reigns on Barrie. Bennett should be able to influence those areas with his experience alone.

I just don't think improving from 30 to 27 is something to care about, and a good coach could take the players on this roster and push for 18-20. Still a big net negative to me. I also fully subscribe to the idea that players should never be tailored to coaches... it should be the other way around.

 

[CobraAcesS]

I just don't think improving from 30 to 27 is something to care about, and a good coach could take the players on this roster and push for 18-20. Still a big net negative to me. I also fully subscribe to the idea that players should never be tailored to coaches... it should be the other way around.

I get that, and I agree. If they start actually doing that I'll probably lose my marbles. At this point it's kind of by happen chance.

Right now knowing that this season is going to be a losing one. I'm willing to be happy about it possibly not being as painful to watch. So Bednar playing the kids matters a lot to me.

 

[Pokecheque]

McLeod went right back to his normal production when he went to Nashville. He isn't a great player, no 4th liners are. He is a great vet and a great glue guy. Those players have value. I don't disagree that his time had passed, and that the Avs needed to move on at some point. There is just a respectful way to do it. If Bednar had went to a respectful route, I'd bet the lockeroom and vets would have responded better. This wasn't just Cody either though. Mitchell, Comeau (I don't buy the early injury thing 100%), Mitchell, Soda, and Colborne all went through different levels. Some had more merit than others. Bednar was in way over his head when dealing with vets.

What "production" levels are we talking about here?

The fact that he got better in a 4th line role on a team that ended up in 2nd place overall once the dust settled is not really saying much. A better team was better at sheltering him, that's all.

And incidentally, why do you not buy the injury story with Blake Comeau? There doesn't appear to be any indication this was some kind of smokescreen. He started out clearly a step behind, and while still not good later on, wasn't as glaringly bad.

 

[henchman21]

What "production" levels are we talking about here?

The fact that he got better in a 4th line role on a team that ended up in 2nd place overall once the dust settled is not really saying much. A better team was better at sheltering him, that's all.

And incidentally, why do you not buy the injury story with Blake Comeau? There doesn't appear to be any indication this was some kind of smokescreen. He started out clearly a step behind, and while still not good later on, wasn't as glaringly bad.

McLeod had 4 goals in 31 games with Nashville... actually solid for a 4th liner and right around his 8ish goal expectations.

All 4th liners will be sheltered. What McLeod adds is not on the stat sheet.

I shouldn't get into that... let's just say it isn't uncommon for teams to use injuries as a cover for something else.

 

[CobraAcesS]

McLeod had 4 goals in 31 games with Nashville... actually solid for a 4th liner and right around his 8ish goal expectations.

All 4th liners will be sheltered. What McLeod adds is not on the stat sheet.

I shouldn't get into that... let's just say it isn't uncommon for teams to use injuries as a cover for something else.

Like when you become allergic to your hockey equipment after 18 years?

 

[Pokecheque]

McLeod had 4 goals in 31 games with Nashville... actually solid for a 4th liner and right around his 8ish goal expectations.

All 4th liners will be sheltered. What McLeod adds is not on the stat sheet.

I shouldn't get into that... let's just say it isn't uncommon for teams to use injuries as a cover for something else.

Some 4th liners require more sheltering than others. A guy like Dom Moore can take defensive zone draws and play an actual checking role. Guys like McLeod and Ryan Reaves require much more maintenance.

But whatever, I get that he's good in the room and all that, but his time contributing anything of consequence to the Avs had come to an end. He did his part, and went to a place where he had a shot at getting his name on the Stanley Cup. I really wish it had happened for him, but really, I don't really lament Bednar's handling of him either.

And I don't want to expend too much energy on Comeau either, but I also don't buy the narrative that they lied about an injury to cover up for his severe case of suckiness to start the year. I mean, if it was something else it really doesn't seem like Bednar would make up some excuse...if anything it appears that he too would've landed in the doghouse like Mitchell, Soderberg, and McLeod did.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Every angle player who can still play some semblance of hockey is going to look better away from the dumpster fire and especially on a team with something to play for.

If the org decided they were done with veterans (and I doubt Bednar with zero hockey ops titles can decide this all on his own) then they have to have a plan on what to do, because I agree that marginalized vets in the room doesn't help anyone. But then throw his hands up Joe can't just shrug his shoulders and say Welp, we tried to waive 'em and then let them sit around the roster and let it fester.

Y'all can point to this or that and Bednar responsible for certain things but for me it's December and January they org collectively sat and watched the team fall off the cliff and didn't do one damn thing until they picked up Nieto and traded McLeod and then sat around some more, that's a bigreason why they had a 48 point season.

 

[McMetal]

Every angle player who can still play some semblance of hockey is going to look better away from the dumpster fire and especially on a team with something to play for.

If the org decided they were done with veterans (and I doubt Bednar with zero hockey ops titles can decide this all on his own) then they have to have a plan on what to do, because I agree that marginalized vets in the room doesn't help anyone. But then throw his hands up Joe can't just shrug his shoulders and say Welp, we tried to waive 'em and then let them sit around the roster and let it fester.

Y'all can point to this or that and Bednar responsible for certain things but for me it's December and January they org collectively sat and watched the team fall off the cliff and didn't do one damn thing until they picked up Nieto and traded McLeod and then sat around some more, that's a bigreason why they had a 48 point season.

I just don't see how panic moves would have actually made things better. The optics might have been better (in some respects), but they were in a no-win situation. If they make a bunch of panic moves, the org is floundering and trading away the future to save a lost season. If they do nothing, they sat on their hands and watched the team burn down.

 

[tigervixxxen]

I just don't see how panic moves would have actually made things better. The optics might have been better (in some respects), but they were in a no-win situation. If they make a bunch of panic moves, the org is floundering and trading away the future to save a lost season. If they do nothing, they sat on their hands and watched the team burn down.

There's quite a range between panic moves and damn near nothing. Even Duchene commented that it was clear they were done when nothing happened after their embarrassment in Montreal. Of course I'm not talking about throwing assets away. At the very least shake it up by calling guys up, Roy did that after the Tampa embarrassment. But it's part of being a GM is knowing what options you have and using them, not just throwing your hands up any saying hey my hands are tied!

 

[CobraAcesS]

There's quite a range between panic moves and damn near nothing. Even Duchene commented that it was clear they were done when nothing happened after their embarrassment in Montreal. Of course I'm not talking about throwing assets away. At the very least shake it up by calling guys up, Roy did that after the Tampa embarrassment. But it's part of being a GM is knowing what options you have and using them, not just throwing your hands up any saying hey my hands are tied!

I really do think management decided it was a lost year and treated it as such from day one. Then they went about putting zero effort into covering it up, and maintaining moral or accountability.

 

[Pokecheque]

Every angle player who can still play some semblance of hockey is going to look better away from the dumpster fire and especially on a team with something to play for.

If the org decided they were done with veterans (and I doubt Bednar with zero hockey ops titles can decide this all on his own) then they have to have a plan on what to do, because I agree that marginalized vets in the room doesn't help anyone. But then throw his hands up Joe can't just shrug his shoulders and say Welp, we tried to waive 'em and then let them sit around the roster and let it fester.

Y'all can point to this or that and Bednar responsible for certain things but for me it's December and January they org collectively sat and watched the team fall off the cliff and didn't do one damn thing until they picked up Nieto and traded McLeod and then sat around some more, that's a bigreason why they had a 48 point season.

THIS. The inaction and indecision that wracked this organization at the worst possible time was and still is mind-boggling. Yet so many continue to villainize the coach.

 

[CobraAcesS]

THIS. The inaction and indecision that wracked this organization at the worst possible time was and still is mind-boggling. Yet so many continue to villainize the coach.

It's all Hench's fault for being a negative nancy

 

[Pokecheque]

I just don't see how panic moves would have actually made things better. The optics might have been better (in some respects), but they were in a no-win situation. If they make a bunch of panic moves, the org is floundering and trading away the future to save a lost season. If they do nothing, they sat on their hands and watched the team burn down.

Sigh...

Once again, demanding a front office take action in the face of a historically bad season is not advocating panic trades. They could've made moves without mortgaging any future pieces. A better, more savvy GM would've done SOMETHING other than waive a couple players and then keep them on the team when they cleared. Even a cup of coffee callup would've been better than the big wad of nothing we witnessed.

 

[Pokecheque]

I really do think management decided it was a lost year and treated it as such from day one. Then they went about putting zero effort into covering it up, and maintaining moral or accountability.

Totally disagree. They had NO IDEA it was gonna be this bad. They had no delusions of grandeur but they were caught totally and completely unprepared when the bottom dropped out. They were prepared for a transition year where they finish in the bottom ten maybe, but not at all ready for the worst team in 15 years.

 

[Foppa2118]

Totally disagree. They had NO IDEA it was gonna be this bad. They had no delusions of grandeur but they were caught totally and completely unprepared when the bottom dropped out. They were prepared for a transition year where they finish in the bottom ten maybe, but not at all ready for the worst team in 15 years.

Agreed. They thought they'd have a chance at the playoffs, but be a bubble team, or just outside the bubble at worst, because that's what they had been recently. That's on Sakic for leaving the team in mediocrity, year after year not doing enough to improve the team, short or long term.

What's on Bednar is turning a bubble team into the worst team in the last 18 years.

 

[agentblack]

Totally disagree. They had NO IDEA it was gonna be this bad. They had no delusions of grandeur but they were caught totally and completely unprepared when the bottom dropped out. They were prepared for a transition year where they finish in the bottom ten maybe, but not at all ready for the worst team in 15 years.

Yeah i think we were all prepared for another bottom 9 or 10er

And it seemed like that was going to plan until what the EJ injury, Varly?

 

[tigervixxxen]

I really feel like every year they think if the core plays well then they could conjure up enough points to be on the playoff bubble at least. It's complete organizational negligence is what got them there. No team who has even tried to tank or knowingly kept a bad coach around has been that bad. Look no further than a perennial bottom 5 AHL team won SIX games in the second half, they lost 11 in a row at one point. Even the 48 point Avs didn't play that poorly.

 

[CobraAcesS]

Totally disagree. They had NO IDEA it was gonna be this bad. They had no delusions of grandeur but they were caught totally and completely unprepared when the bottom dropped out. They were prepared for a transition year where they finish in the bottom ten maybe, but not at all ready for the worst team in 15 years.

Not based on rumored comments from someone in management. I think it was a French reporter who talked to someone who made commentary about it being a lost year. I don't really feel like looking up the source, but there should be some others around here who remember it.

I'm not saying they tanked it like Buffalo, but I fully believe they didn't care how it went outside of a few factors. I think Sakic knew between the contract number and our cap that he was going to "Have his hands tied" lol. Once Roy left they really let go IMO, and I could believe Bednar was told from the start of his hiring that he'd be safe. His lack of fear for any of his actions screams to it IMO.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Frenchy told us there was a report on RDS. I don't doubt Frenchy but none of us ever heard the original report or the context it was presented in and it's been upheld as this evidence of intent. Reporters throw a lot of their own speculation in and it wasnt even a direct quote from Sakic. Plus I don't doubt they could use the spin machine in Quebec to say oh yeah, we totally planned for this.

And yeah, the root of all this is negligence so that's pretty tough to prove or separate intent. I agree they never plan to be bad or to purposely tank but to what degree are they ok with hugging the bottom, that's going to be tough to sort.

But then to go on the warpath like they did about how someone has got to go in the core, I really feel like there was true anger and disappointment there, it didn't feel like all part of the plan. Maybe they've seen the light now that apparently Duchene is the only one to go and it's not like the core is on the verge of all getting shipped out like it did for the last summer, fall and winter. I feel like the org thinks they won't win a Cup but the core should get them to the playoffs. It's the build and compete strategy that they think works.

 

[NorCalAvsFan]

Agreed. They thought they'd have a chance at the playoffs, but be a bubble team, or just outside the bubble at worst, because that's what they had been recently. That's on Sakic for leaving the team in mediocrity, year after year not doing enough to improve the team, short or long term.

What's on Bednar is turning a bubble team into the worst team in the last 18 years.

If Bednar yelled and screamed more... would they have won more games?

You can't polish a turd, man.. Our roster was a joke.. Our best players got hurt on a team with almost no depth to begin with.. exactly what did people expect?

C'mon. Provided everyone is healthy this season, and the kids take a step.. we have a hell of a team forming here..

 

[CobraAcesS]

Frenchy told us there was a report on RDS. I don't doubt Frenchy but none of us ever heard the original report or the context it was presented in and it's been upheld as this evidence of intent. Reporters throw a lot of their own speculation in and it wasnt even a direct quote from Sakic. Plus I don't doubt they could use the spin machine in Quebec to say oh yeah, we totally planned for this.

And yeah, the root of all this is negligence so that's pretty tough to prove or separate intent. I agree they never plan to be bad or to purposely tank but to what degree are they ok with hugging the bottom, that's going to be tough to sort.

Absolutely, but we're diving into the dark pool here. When I personally put together the details between non action, a rookie coach with that much of leash (running millions of dollars into the ground), and that comment. It paints a picture of a group that turned the lights out and went home way before anyone realized. Including the players.