Speculation: Summer Baggage Thread

[McMetal]

Sigh...

Once again, demanding a front office take action in the face of a historically bad season is not advocating panic trades. They could've made moves without mortgaging any future pieces. A better, more savvy GM would've done SOMETHING other than waive a couple players and then keep them on the team when they cleared. Even a cup of coffee callup would've been better than the big wad of nothing we witnessed.

Well, what would YOU have done? It's easy to say "Oh, a GOOD manager would have done SOMETHING better", but our options were limited considering that a top pairing LHD was not available for trade and prospects like Compher, Lindholm and Greer were better served by being in the minors. Oh, and Bigras was hurt.

I'm tired of everybody acting like they could have done better.

 

[Sea Eagles]

One thing not mentioned in all of this is how dependent this team has been on goal-tending. I'd say if there was one major difference in personnel. It's that Allaire stopped giving a ****, and Varly continued to trend downward with injuries. I'd also put part of the blame for Pickard's struggles on Allaire as well. In a season where there was much more pressure on him to perform a young goalie had a ghost for a coach. Since you talk to AJ you should know what I'm talking about because I got it from him.

There is lots of factors beyond Bednar. It's hilarious to me that it's impossible for some people to be objective about it and pick things apart specifically.

Post after post after post of complaining about not playing the kids in 15-16 because Roy was trying to win. Bednar from day one played guys like Greer with good players. We see tangible positive development in our younger players with it being directly linked to Bednar.

It's also hilarious that I have to look like I'm pumping Bednar's tires so hard just to point out a positive aspect that is important to this up coming season. I guess some people are not ready to accept the fact that Bednar will be here for next season. I'd personally like to move on to discuss reality instead of beating a drum for weeks on end. I guess I'm just tired of that repetitive beat a bit before everyone else.

Oh man, thank you. I 1,000% agree with you. What has happened, has happened. We have what we have. Look, I may be an absolute homer to everyone, because yes, I have hope, and yes, I love absolutely every single one of our players, but I see the risks & issues as well. I'm not blind to them.

End of the day, Jared Bednar is our coach. We've aligned our team much closer to the one he's been so successful with in the AHL (younger, faster, more impressionable). We've brought in experienced offensive coaches in Bennett, and boy, when The Blues light it up, they are a darned exciting team to watch. We've got a successful, "plugged in" bloody goalie coach that at least wants to be here.

Can't we just accept what is, and give them a fair shake, honestly? Look, I understand everyone thinks we'll be a bottom 5 team next season (I don't, I think we'll be playing in the playoffs), but whatever happens, everyone wins. Why? We either get that draft pick everyone wants, or we sneak into the playoffs.

I bet this team goes into next season with a massive chip on their shoulder. They've been beaten from pillar to post by fan and critic alike. They'll have a point to prove, don't you worry - especially one Matt Duchene, who I hope plays with 92 and Yak, and rips apart the opposition.

 

[Pokecheque]

Well, what would YOU have done? It's easy to say "Oh, a GOOD manager would have done SOMETHING better", but our options were limited considering that a top pairing LHD was not available for trade and prospects like Compher, Lindholm and Greer were better served by being in the minors. Oh, and Bigras was hurt.

I'm tired of everybody acting like they could have done better.

Nothing could have saved the season, I'm not saying they could have or even should have made a big trade. The team was more or less capped out and they ran into even more **** luck when Compher and Bigras both managed to get hurt at the worst possible time (though neither was really ready for a callup at that point anyhow).

I'm just saying if yer gonna waive a guy THEN DEMOTE HIM. The whole story of waiving Mitchell to "send a message" was a bull-faced lie, that was a desperation move. They were trying to dump his salary and found no suckers. When he cleared they had no move to make except wipe the egg off their faces.

They still could've done more, and by more I mean something other than "nothing." Send Beauchemin home, or at least stick him in the press box. When you waive Gelinas, send him down. Scratch Iginla a couple times, it's obvious his body couldn't sustain an 82-game season. Promote someone, ANYONE to try and infuse an obviously demoralized squad with some energy and desperation.

Very good chance none of that would have worked, but it would have been SOMETHING. And again, the team did finally start to play better once they did start making some minor transactions/pickups. But Sakic seemed more intent on not offending Jarome Iginla for some reason, and to a lesser extent, Francois Beauchemin.

So yes, someone, anyone, could have and would have done better than Sakic, he's too indecisive and not savvy enough to be a general manager at the NHL level. All we can do is hope and pray he won't run this thing into the ground more than he already has. The fact they've finally given up on recruiting washed up NHLers is at least one step in the right direction.

 

[Sea Eagles]

Question everyone. Throw in John Tortorella (I use him because he won coach of the year) on our team. Would the result be 21 points different in the standings?

Honestly?

 

[Pokecheque]

Question everyone. Throw in John Tortorella (I use him because he won coach of the year) on our team. Would the result be 21 points different in the standings?

Honestly?

Very good question.

I'd say he'd have done better if for no other reason than he would've been absolutely screaming in Sakic's ear to take action.

 

[McMetal]

Nothing could have saved the season, I'm not saying they could have or even should have made a big trade. The team was more or less capped out and they ran into even more **** luck when Compher and Bigras both managed to get hurt at the worst possible time (though neither was really ready for a callup at that point anyhow).

I'm just saying if yer gonna waive a guy THEN DEMOTE HIM. The whole story of waiving Mitchell to "send a message" was a bull-faced lie, that was a desperation move. They were trying to dump his salary and found no suckers. When he cleared they had no move to make except wipe the egg off their faces.

They still could've done more, and by more I mean something other than "nothing." Send Beauchemin home, or at least stick him in the press box. When you waive Gelinas, send him down. Scratch Iginla a couple times, it's obvious his body couldn't sustain an 82-game season. Promote someone, ANYONE to try and infuse an obviously demoralized squad with some energy and desperation.

Very good chance none of that would have worked, but it would have been SOMETHING. And again, the team did finally start to play better once they did start making some minor transactions/pickups. But Sakic seemed more intent on not offending Jarome Iginla for some reason, and to a lesser extent, Francois Beauchemin.

So yes, someone, anyone, could have and would have done better than Sakic, he's too indecisive and not savvy enough to be a general manager at the NHL level. All we can do is hope and pray he won't run this thing into the ground more than he already has. The fact they've finally given up on recruiting washed up NHLers is at least one step in the right direction.

So if he had done those things that you admit would have had little to no effect, you would now be saying that he did a good job last season? Or would you have found new things to complain about?

 

[Pokecheque]

So if he had done those things that you admit would have had little to no effect, you would now be saying that he did a good job last season? Or would you have found new things to complain about?

Nice try, but no, he's still the GM of record who acquired a bunch of garbage vets for too much money and littered the roster with too many slow skaters. But yeah, I wouldn't have been blasting him for sitting on his hands while the season burned, much like he's sitting on his hands hoping someone gets desperate enough to meet his asking price for Duchene.

They fired the last guy who rolled out a capped-out roster that tanked, and Giguere had far, far less leeway and way more excuses than Sakic does. But yet Sakic is still employed. Beats me as to why, except maybe the organization believes that Roy was largely responsible for the many missteps that led to last season's disaster.

 

[McMetal]

Nice try, but no, he's still the GM of record who acquired a bunch of garbage vets for too much money and littered the roster with too many slow skaters. But yeah, I wouldn't have been blasting him for sitting on his hands while the season burned, much like he's sitting on his hands hoping someone gets desperate enough to meet his asking price for Duchene.

They fired the last guy who rolled out a capped-out roster that tanked, and Giguere had far, far less leeway and way more excuses than Sakic does. But yet Sakic is still employed. Beats me as to why, except maybe the organization believes that Roy was largely responsible for the many missteps that led to last season's disaster.

Or.... They have seen the growing prospect pool, and understand that if they get a new GM, any success they have will be in large part due to young players that have been brought into the org by Sakic. Compher, Jost, Greer, Zadorov, Rantanen, Andrighetto, MacKinnon, Mironov, Meloche, etc etc etc. I think Sakic deserves a chance to see the fruits of his own youth movement borne out before we drum him out of the org that he basically built himself on the ice.

 

[Pokecheque]

Or.... They have seen the growing prospect pool, and understand that if they get a new GM, any success they have will be in large part due to young players that have been brought into the org by Sakic. Compher, Jost, Greer, Zadorov, Rantanen, Andrighetto, MacKinnon, Mironov, Meloche, etc etc etc. I think Sakic deserves a chance to see the fruits of his own youth movement borne out before we drum him out of the org that he basically built himself on the ice.

It's happened before. Brian Burke put the finishing touches on Anaheim's Cup-winning roster (it's pretty clear based on what happened in Toronto that Burke can't build a team from scratch). Stan Bowman gets a lot of credit (and some of it deservedly so) but it was Dale Tallon who did a lot of the heavy lifting in Chicago. And Ken Holland wasn't the man in charge when the Red Wings made their way out of their 1980s doldrums...that was Jimmy Devellano.

Sakic (and Roy) deserve credit for getting what looks like a legit pipeline in place, but IMO he's also made way too many egregious mistakes. His FA signings have not just been poor--they've been disastrous. I'm actually trying to think of a GM who did worse in that department and can't quite think of one. If you can, please, honestly, tell me.

Again, some of those, like the Beauchemin signing and those idiotic trades at the deadline, could be attributed largely to Roy. That's what I assume is the mentality here is that the organization finally has one singular voice. I'm just not convinced it's the right one.

 

[McMetal]

It's happened before. Brian Burke put the finishing touches on Anaheim's Cup-winning roster (it's pretty clear based on what happened in Toronto that Burke can't build a team from scratch). Stan Bowman gets a lot of credit (and some of it deservedly so) but it was Dale Tallon who did a lot of the heavy lifting in Chicago. And Ken Holland wasn't the man in charge when the Red Wings made their way out of their 1980s doldrums...that was Jimmy Devellano.

Sakic (and Roy) deserve credit for getting what looks like a legit pipeline in place, but IMO he's also made way too many egregious mistakes. His FA signings have not just been poor--they've been disastrous. I'm actually trying to think of a GM who did worse in that department and can't quite think of one. If you can, please, honestly, tell me.

Again, some of those, like the Beauchemin signing and those idiotic trades at the deadline, could be attributed largely to Roy. That's what I assume is the mentality here is that the organization finally has one singular voice. I'm just not convinced it's the right one.

To your last point, in my opinion it is absolutely the right one. Sakic is the same as a GM as he was as a player: calm. When everybody else is freaking out, he's cool and rational. He's playing a long game. I get that the optics look bad of not being "busy" during a bad season, but he was determined to do two things: wait out his bad contracts and develop some key pieces. He accomplished both of those things.

He basically started that path on July 1st last year. No big deals, just short term bargain bin stopgaps that didn't hurt our cap structure down the line. Same thing this summer. Nothing risky or with term. Optics: poor. Looks like he's doing nothing. But optics don't win games.

He's being patient and waiting for his youth movement to arrive. I would much rather see that than going out and trading Wood for Boedker all over again. That was a proactive move, but ultimately, the wrong one. Sometimes doing nothing IS better than doing something stupid. I'm glad the guy in charge realizes that.

 

[Xokkeu]

Nice try, but no, he's still the GM of record who acquired a bunch of garbage vets for too much money and littered the roster with too many slow skaters. But yeah, I wouldn't have been blasting him for sitting on his hands while the season burned, much like he's sitting on his hands hoping someone gets desperate enough to meet his asking price for Duchene.

They fired the last guy who rolled out a capped-out roster that tanked, and Giguere had far, far less leeway and way more excuses than Sakic does. But yet Sakic is still employed. Beats me as to why, except maybe the organization believes that Roy was largely responsible for the many missteps that led to last season's disaster.

At least none of those vets really cost anything. Other than the Varlamov trade

Not much could have been done during the season last year or this offseason. You aren't fixing this dumpster fire in free agency and sadly probably a couple more seasons of solid tanking away from getting enough talent to be competitive.

 

[flyfysher]

At least none of those vets really cost anything. Other than the Varlamov trade

Not much could have been done during the season last year or this offseason. You aren't fixing this dumpster fire in free agency and sadly probably a couple more seasons of solid tanking away from getting enough talent to be competitive.

Hmmm,

So then who do you think should have been the Avs goalie before they traded for Varlamov?

 

[Xokkeu]

Hmmm,

So then who do you think should have been the Avs goalie before they traded for Varlamov?

I'd rather have Filip Forsberg and a goalie off the waiver wire, but anyway that trade is done and dusted. Point being recent management has not been dumping prospects on crappy vets. Unfortunately that's probably also because our prospects from that time period are fairly worthless.

 

[flyfysher]

I'd rather have Filip Forsberg and a goalie off the waiver wire, but anyway that trade is done and dusted. Point being recent management has not been dumping prospects on crappy vets. Unfortunately that's probably also because our prospects from that time period are fairly worthless.

Goalie off the waiver wire?

 

[Cousin Eddie]

Goalie off the waiver wire?

I don't know about "waiver wire" but a lot of people were pretty convinced Tommy Vokoun was signing here July 1 2011. He even said in an interview a few weeks earlier that he'd like to sign somewhere "like Colorado".

 

[henchman21]

Question everyone. Throw in John Tortorella (I use him because he won coach of the year) on our team. Would the result be 21 points different in the standings?

Honestly?

Torts would have had last year's roster somewhere in the 80s... high 70s at the absolute very worst. IMO Torts is a better coach than Roy by a good margin, but he wears pretty thin on players quickly. I'd be surprised if the team year over year from 15-16 to 16-17 would have been worse than the 82 that Roy put up.

It's all Hench's fault for being a negative nancy

Totes

 

[Pokecheque]

Agreed. They thought they'd have a chance at the playoffs, but be a bubble team, or just outside the bubble at worst, because that's what they had been recently. That's on Sakic for leaving the team in mediocrity, year after year not doing enough to improve the team, short or long term.

What's on Bednar is turning a bubble team into the worst team in the last 18 years.

No. I think you're equating where the organization thought they were with what was actually there. That humungous gap is not all on Bednar. Right now SEVEN players not retained from last year's team may not be in the NHL next season, and an eighth signed in the KHL already. That's all on the coach?

 

[tigervixxxen]

It's a blessing in disguise that they broke out of the 80 point cycle.

 

[StayAtHomeAv]

Yeah i think we were all prepared for another bottom 9 or 10er

And it seemed like that was going to plan until what the EJ injury, Varly?

We were already on a 4 game losing streak when EJ went down, but we were at .500 before that losing streak. And it's not like EJ hasn't gone done before.

Varly lost 7 of 8 games beforehand, and he had another 5 game losing streak earlier in the year in which he gave up at least 4 goals in 4 of the 5 games. Hell, he only won 6 games all year.

 

[henchman21]

We were already on a 4 game losing streak when EJ went down, but we were at .500 before that losing streak. And it's not like EJ hasn't gone done before.

Varly lost 7 of 8 games beforehand, and he had another 5 game losing streak earlier in the year in which he gave up at least 4 goals in 4 of the 5 games. Hell, he only won 6 games all year.

Yep... teams got the tape on the Avs and shut the whole thing down. They became VERY easy to gameplan for. Even if EJ and Varly were healthy, the result wouldn't have been much different. Maybe a 54-56 point season.

 

[flyfysher]

I don't know about "waiver wire" but a lot of people were pretty convinced Tommy Vokoun was signing here July 1 2011. He even said in an interview a few weeks earlier that he'd like to sign somewhere "like Colorado".

I don't recall Vokoun or whether he was a "waiver wire" pick up. In 2011, Vokoun was 35 (didn't calculate it by actual birthday) years old. Although in 2011-2012 when he was with the Caps his record was 25-17 with 2 OT and a .917 SV%.

Then, in 2012-2013, Vokoun's record was 13-4 with the Pens and a .919 SV%.

In 2013-2014, Vokoun was playing for the Wilkes-Barrie Pens with a record of 1-1 and a .891 SV%. It was his last year playing.

In 2011, Varly was 23 years old. Weren't the Avs trying to get younger and build a core back then?

 

[McMetal]

I don't recall Vokoun or whether he was a "waiver wire" pick up. In 2011, Vokoun was 35 (didn't calculate it by actual birthday) years old. Although in 2011-2012 when he was with the Caps his record was 25-17 with 2 OT and a .917 SV%.

Then, in 2012-2013, Vokoun's record was 13-4 with the Pens and a .919 SV%.

In 2013-2014, Vokoun was playing for the Wilkes-Barrie Pens with a record of 1-1 and a .891 SV%. It was his last year playing.

In 2011, Varly was 23 years old. Weren't the Avs trying to get younger and build a core back then?

Well, considering that people talk about him now as if he's 36+, it's not surprising that we're assuming Varley was 30 when we traded for him.

 

[agentblack]

Didnt Vokoun think we were going to sign him up until the last minute? And then the Varly trade went down...we got crap for it...and then he signed with PIT for like a dollar...and everyone praised them ...am i recalling that right?

 

[Foppberg]

I would've loved Vokoun, he was one of those players that I had an irrational love for.

 

[UncleRisto]

Didnt Vokoun think we were going to sign him up until the last minute? And then the Varly trade went down...we got crap for it...and then he signed with PIT for like a dollar...and everyone praised them ...am i recalling that right?

Yeah sure, everyone was certain he was coming here. I know I was.

The other part is the classic "Why the **** are they out there signing Jonathan Bernier to 2.75 when they could have signed Antti Niemi for 700k?!"