Speculation: Summer Baggage Thread

[Murzu]

I love Vokoun. Can we still get him please?

 

[Xokkeu]

Goalie off the waiver wire?

Yep. Varlamov is a fine goalie but he's not worth an upper first round pick. He had one good season for us and a bunch of injured ones, which is zero bit surprising since he had the same situation in Washington. Ben Bishop cost a second round pick, or we could have kept Craig Anderson. Or kept Brian Elliott. Or signed Mike Smith.

Even having a terrible goalie the only thing we lose over the past few years is on playoff appearance.

 

[henchman21]

Yep. Varlamov is a fine goalie but he's not worth an upper first round pick. He had one good season for us and a bunch of injured ones, which is zero bit surprising since he had the same situation in Washington. Ben Bishop cost a second round pick, or we could have kept Craig Anderson. Or kept Brian Elliott. Or signed Mike Smith.

Even having a terrible goalie the only thing we lose over the past few years is on playoff appearance.

Hindsight 20/20, not ruining that relationship would have been the best path.

 

[Xokkeu]

Hindsight 20/20, not ruining that relationship would have been the best path.

I mean you have to ask why guys like Anderson and Elliott sucked so bad for us and then went on to be playoff goalies.

 

[EdAVSfan]

I mean you have to ask why guys like Anderson and Elliott sucked so bad for us and then went on to be playoff goalies.

Anderson explanation was pretty simple. He was great until he didn't get the contract that he wanted.

 

[henchman21]

The Elliott one is pretty simple too... Hitchcock.

 

[Pokecheque]

MHH breaks down one big reason why I hated the Varly deal.

https://www.milehighhockey.com/2017/7/19/15988500/colorado-avalanche-goalie-coach-jussi-parkkila

You don't make a move THAT ambitious in a vacuum. You don't go all out to secure an asset and then don't make any further investment whatsoever. You do whatever it takes to make that investment successful. Avs didn't even bother to hire a full-time goalie coach, and past so-called goalie coaches were simply hired because they were buddies with the goalie at the time (see: Hackett, Jeff). An organization that was committed to eyeing the bottom line with a salary-floor budget should not be flipping first round picks if they're gonna go cheap on everything else.

I'd add that around this time the Avs just sorta decided they weren't going to move the puck anymore. They more or less stripped the team of puckmovers on the back end and became all dump and chase. That made them EVEN MORE dependent on goaltending to bail them out. Yet again, they didn't make the investment to ensure Varly is successful between the pipes. They made no such investment until Roy showed up.

 

[agentblack]

MHH breaks down one big reason why I hated the Varly deal.

https://www.milehighhockey.com/2017/7/19/15988500/colorado-avalanche-goalie-coach-jussi-parkkila

You don't make a move THAT ambitious in a vacuum. You don't go all out to secure an asset and then don't make any further investment whatsoever. You do whatever it takes to make that investment successful. Avs didn't even bother to hire a full-time goalie coach, and past so-called goalie coaches were simply hired because they were buddies with the goalie at the time (see: Hackett, Jeff). An organization that was committed to eyeing the bottom line with a salary-floor budget should not be flipping first round picks if they're gonna go cheap on everything else.

I'd add that around this time the Avs just sorta decided they weren't going to move the puck anymore. They more or less stripped the team of puckmovers on the back end and became all dump and chase. That made them EVEN MORE dependent on goaltending to bail them out. Yet again, they didn't make the investment to ensure Varly is successful between the pipes. They made no such investment until Roy showed up.

You can apply this to EJ as well. Wasted years of his career because when he got here...they was jack and ***** playing around him.

Boy the constant crying for a LD on these boards was ...so much fun.

 

[flyfysher]

MHH breaks down one big reason why I hated the Varly deal.

https://www.milehighhockey.com/2017/7/19/15988500/colorado-avalanche-goalie-coach-jussi-parkkila

You don't make a move THAT ambitious in a vacuum. You don't go all out to secure an asset and then don't make any further investment whatsoever. You do whatever it takes to make that investment successful. Avs didn't even bother to hire a full-time goalie coach, and past so-called goalie coaches were simply hired because they were buddies with the goalie at the time (see: Hackett, Jeff). An organization that was committed to eyeing the bottom line with a salary-floor budget should not be flipping first round picks if they're gonna go cheap on everything else.

I'd add that around this time the Avs just sorta decided they weren't going to move the puck anymore. They more or less stripped the team of puckmovers on the back end and became all dump and chase. That made them EVEN MORE dependent on goaltending to bail them out. Yet again, they didn't make the investment to ensure Varly is successful between the pipes. They made no such investment until Roy showed up.

Couldn't agree more. It was dump and chase all of the time under Sacco. And they didn't even have a full-time goalie coach.

Now, hindsight is 20/20. If the argument is that we should have seen F. Forsberg being picked and becoming a superstar then I call ********. Not doubting Forsberg as a quality prospect but as a draftee, that's a lot different than saying he was an established player. The Caps traded Forsberg to Nashville where he blossomed. I can't see the legitimacy in criticizing the Avs trade for Varly under the circumstances. I get the hate of some posters for Varly's contract now but after seeing goalies like Aebischer and Budaj play for the Avs, it was pretty clear to me at the time that they needed a goalie for the future.

 

[tigervixxxen]

That's why unless he shows he's truly incapable of playing after this surgery then I don't see them letting him go either.

 

[Xokkeu]

Couldn't agree more. It was dump and chase all of the time under Sacco. And they didn't even have a full-time goalie coach.

Now, hindsight is 20/20. If the argument is that we should have seen F. Forsberg being picked and becoming a superstar then I call ********. Not doubting Forsberg as a quality prospect but as a draftee, that's a lot different than saying he was an established player. The Caps traded Forsberg to Nashville where he blossomed. I can't see the legitimacy in criticizing the Avs trade for Varly under the circumstances. I get the hate of some posters for Varly's contract now but after seeing goalies like Aebischer and Budaj play for the Avs, it was pretty clear to me at the time that they needed a goalie for the future.

I actually didn't think Forsberg would have been available at 11. Thought he was guaranteed top 5. Regardless plenty of late first rounders in that draft that I'd rather have than Varlamov and the team was not in a position to give up future assets.

 

[McMetal]

I actually didn't think Forsberg would have been available at 11. Thought he was guaranteed top 5. Regardless plenty of late first rounders in that draft that I'd rather have than Varlamov and the team was not in a position to give up future assets.

There's also no guarantee that they would have taken him. Pracey wasn't exactly known for liking European skaters in the first.

 

[Pokecheque]

There's also no guarantee that they would have taken him. Pracey wasn't exactly known for liking European skaters in the first.

Yeah, I'm guessing Pracey would've opted for Tom Wilson. Didn't he always draft from the OHL and WHL only?

 

[dahrougem2]

I actually didn't think Forsberg would have been available at 11. Thought he was guaranteed top 5. Regardless plenty of late first rounders in that draft that I'd rather have than Varlamov and the team was not in a position to give up future assets.

I was under the assumption that season that Forsberg was going #1

 

[Xokkeu]

There's also no guarantee that they would have taken him. Pracey wasn't exactly known for liking European skaters in the first.

Lol I won't argue against the idea that the Avs would have found some way to botch the pick.

 

[Xokkeu]

Yeah, I'm guessing Pracey would've opted for Tom Wilson. Didn't he always draft from the OHL and WHL only?

MacKinnon was in the Q. But yeah Duchene, Landeskog, O'Reilly, Heard, Bigras, Hishon all OHL guys. Siemens, Bleackly, Pickard were WHL

Anyway, considering the draft record, Tom Wilson would be too skilled. Henrik Samuelsson would be a more likely option.

 

[Hasbro]

The. #11 was decent value for Varly, but no pick protection was an unforgivably reckless gamble give the status of that team.

 

[tigervixxxen]

Have the Avs ever put conditions on picks they've traded away?

 

[Hasbro]

Have the Avs ever put conditions on picks they've traded away?

Resigning in the case of Fluery and Blake

 

[Pokecheque]

I bet McPhee would've balked had there been protections in place. There just should've been more done than actively making the team worse while simultaneously flipping a first rounder. It was like they expected Varly's presence alone to keep that from being a lottery pick.

 

[Pokecheque]

And don't get me wrong...even with Carolina on the verge of relevancy again they're auditioning starting goalie #25 in Scott Darling. It's nice to have had more certainty in place in that position over the past few years but they also haven't really built upon that trade either. They haven't built a proper defensive corps nor have they acquired or developed adequate checking forwards.

 

[McMetal]

I actually didn't think Forsberg would have been available at 11. Thought he was guaranteed top 5. Regardless plenty of late first rounders in that draft that I'd rather have than Varlamov and the team was not in a position to give up future assets.

Varley was 23 when they traded for him. That's a baby in goaltender years. At the time, he would have had 10+ years of prime time ahead of him. I get the idea that a first round pick could be anything, but it was futures for a future goalie that would be a long term core player. In a vacuum without any benefit of hindsight, that's not bad value at all for a first that could have busted and turned into nothing at all. Siemens was picked 11th overall just one year before, so it's not like 11th OA is a slam dunk.

 

[Xokkeu]

Varley was 23 when they traded for him. That's a baby in goaltender years. At the time, he would have had 10+ years of prime time ahead of him. I get the idea that a first round pick could be anything, but it was futures for a future goalie that would be a long term core player. In a vacuum without any benefit of hindsight, that's not bad value at all for a first that could have busted and turned into nothing at all. Siemens was picked 11th overall just one year before, so it's not like 11th OA is a slam dunk.

Yeah but he's been exactly what I feared he'd be a talented goalie who is never healthy. It's not like this was new.

Of course the Varlamov was hardly the worst thing done over those years

 

[tigervixxxen]

If we are going to play the shoulda game then giving up the 2008 1st is exponentially more egregious.

 

[ABasin]

If we are going to play the shoulda game then giving up the 2008 1st is exponentially more egregious.

No doubt about it.