Speculation: Summer 2018 Roster Discussion Part IV

[tiburon12]

Nice observation. He totally needs to be jettisoned.

Did somebody say Ottawa?

 

[Mattb124]

I don’t think Maple Leafs fans are any more homerish than the rest of us. Any team with Matthews, Nylander, Marner, and Tavares would have fans that are pretty cocky, and understandably so.

The problem I have with them is that there are so many of them, who insist on making every thread about them, and their victim mentality is so strong. I saw that top-10 forwards thread last night. I opened it, read the first few posts, and thought to myself “I would literally bet $500 that by the last page, this thread has devolved into a debate about Tavares and Matthews being top-10, with Leafs fans insisting that both of those players would be on every single list if they didn’t play for Toronto.” Sure enough, I got there, and that’s exactly what it was.

They are insistent that there is this anti-Leafs bias on this website and it’s hilariously inaccurate. Players like Patrick Marleau become twice as likely to be voted as a HOFer by this forum after they join Toronto, and players like Tavares perform the same in polls against players like Schiefele after joining Toronto. Yet, somehow, there is this massive hatred for the Leafs on this forum. It’s totally inaccurate and it’s a hilariously stupid victim mentality. This forum, on average, loves the Maple Leafs significantly more than any other team.

Are they more homerish or are they not? You suggest they aren't and then given multiple examples of how they are in order to validate - and by that I mean contradict - your initial assertion.

I agree with all your points, except your basic thesis that they are not any more homerish than the rest of us.

 

[Mattb124]

The funny thing is, sickening is a term of endearment. It comes from YouTube personality Jason Genova who was attempting to be a professional bodybuilder. Somebody replaced one of his famous quotes (“we don’t care about injuries, we’re freaks!”) with “We don’t care about a top-4 of Rielly-Hainsey-Gardiner-Zaitsev, we’re freaks!”. And I merely said that their defense was “sickening”. (A term of endearment that Genova generally used to use to refer to his own physique.) Because their victim mentality is so strong, they immediately get very defensive and believe they are being insulted.

And I already said earlier in the thread that they would be smart to acquire Panarin.

You of course realize the commonly understood definition of "sickening" pre-dates the existence of Jason Genova and YouTube and is the opposite of the hipster definition?

sick·en·ing
[ˈsik(ə)niNG]
ADJECTIVE

1. causing or liable to cause a feeling of nausea or disgust.

 

[OrrNumber4]

No it doesn't. It comes from the actual dictionary definition of the word.
Just because one "celebrity" uses it as a possible form of endearment, that doesn't make it the standard definition, and you can't expect others to know what you meant.
I'm hardly one to back another team's fans, but that's not victim mentality in the slightest.

Except given the context that that celebrity was previously reference, maybe they are being overly sensitive and should have realized what he was doing.

I saw the Sharks play in Columbus this past season. Not the most exciting place, but definitely far worst cities in the league to live in (Detroit, Buffalo). These guys are on the road half the year plus can go wherever in the offseason. That being said, I can see why Columbus wouldn’t be a top choice for a European player.

While there is definitely a big vs. small city dynamic, at the level of wealth these players have, they can have access to all the nice features they would have in other cities. You can't replicate the culture, the climate, or the travel, of course.

 

[WTFetus]

Except given the context that that celebrity was previously reference, maybe they are being overly sensitive and should have realized what he was doing.

.

What are you talking about? There was 0 mention of Jason Genova in that thread. Even then
1) You can't assume posters know who he is. I certainly don't.
2) Even if they maybe heard of his name, that doesn't mean they'd understand that obscure slang usage.

 

[tiburon12]

While there is definitely a big vs. small city dynamic, at the level of wealth these players have, they can have access to all the nice features they would have in other cities. You can't replicate the culture, the climate, or the travel, of course.

I think that's what he mentioned specifically, right? wanting to be near an ocean?

 

[OrrNumber4]

I think that's what he mentioned specifically, right? wanting to be near an ocean?

Really? Can't believe that is actually what that is...maybe it is a cover for some other problems he has with the organization.

What are you talking about? There was 0 mention of Jason Genova in that thread. Even then
1) You can't assume posters know who he is. I certainly don't.
2) Even if they maybe heard of his name, that doesn't mean they'd understand that obscure slang usage.

The way the JoeThorntonsRooster described it, it seemed like another poster invocated Genova first.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

I applaud Panarin. He has, through his agent and posture, said “hey, I’m not gonna be here long term - trade me now if you want max value, or trade me at the deadline for what value you can get - in either case: once the seasons starts all I focus on is winning hockey games”.

To me, this is a professional being as frank as possible with his employer. Unlike a typical employer the Jackets have an opportunity to turn Panarin into long-term/near-term/a mix therof assets and he is making it clear that they should do so... unlike <cough> every “I wanna stay in ____” free agent that has come before him. And, while it’s clear he isn’t going to stay in Columbus long term (like I’m sure they’d like) at least he isn’t playing any games <cough>Tavares, every other UFA<cough> and yet he has said: “if you don’t trade me you can still count on my best effort for this season”.

Even if you’re a Blue Jackets fan you have to appreciate his frankness.

 

[tiburon12]

Really? Can't believe that is actually what that is...maybe it is a cover for some other problems he has with the organization.

Yea Friedge said in on 31 Thoughts pod. I would want to be near water too, frankly.

But could be a smokescreen, you're right. Of course we'll never know

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I applaud Panarin. He has, through his agent and posture, said “hey, I’m not gonna be here long term - trade me now if you want max value, or trade me at the deadline for what value you can get - in either case: once the seasons starts all I focus on is winning hockey games”.

To me, this is a professional being as frank as possible with his employer. Unlike a typical employer the Jackets have an opportunity to turn Panarin into long-term/near-term/a mix therof assets and he is making it clear that they should do so... unlike <cough> every “I wanna stay in ____” free agent that has come before him. And, while it’s clear he isn’t going to stay in Columbus long term (like I’m sure they’d like) at least he isn’t playing any games <cough>Tavares, every other UFA<cough> and yet he has said: “if you don’t trade me you can still count on my best effort for this season”.

Even if you’re a Blue Jackets fan you have to appreciate his frankness.

It's certainly more respectable than the dog and pony show that Tavares asked to be put on when he had his mind made up on what his choices actually were.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

It's certainly more respectable than the dog and pony show that Tavares asked to be put on when he had his mind made up on what his choices actually were.

I certainly think Tavares could handled the situation better but in his defense he was just using everyone else as leverage to get the maximum value out of the Leafs. If he had made it clear right off the bat that it was going to be the Leafs he would have lost a lot of that.

Though, I would have respected him a lot more if he had come out and said right off that the Leafs and Islanders are the two options he has and let them bid it out while letting the other parties pursue other options. He would probably have still walked away with the same deal he took with the TML.

I know the DW made a statement after Tavares made his decision (to go to Toronto) about thanking Tavares for considering us. I would have liked it if Tavares had given some kind of acknowledgement about the effort DW put in to woo him. I did not hear/read a peep of that. Was a little disappointing to me.

DW's statement was probably more to get the word out the players that if you are good and want to get paid, we will do that. I think that message did get across though.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I certainly think Tavares could handled the situation better but in his defense he was just using everyone else as leverage to get the maximum value out of the Leafs. If he had made it clear right off the bat that it was going to be the Leafs he would have lost a lot of that.

Though, I would have respected him a lot more if he had come out and said right off that the Leafs and Islanders are the two options he has and let them bid it out while letting the other parties pursue other options. He would probably have still walked away with the same deal he took with the TML.

I know the DW made a statement after Tavares made his decision (to go to Toronto) about thanking Tavares for considering us. I would have liked it if Tavares had given some kind of acknowledgement about the effort DW put in to woo him. I did not hear/read a peep of that. Was a little disappointing to me.

DW's statement was probably more to get the word out the players that if you are good and want to get paid, we will do that. I think that message did get across though.

If 11 mil was all he could leverage out of the situation then he and his agent did a poor job. I don't mind the leverage game if you're legitimately going to sign elsewhere because of a better offer but when you're really just down to two teams and still using other teams outside of those two to try and leverage, it's dishonest negotiating.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

If 11 mil was all he could leverage out of the situation then he and his agent did a poor job. I don't mind the leverage game if you're legitimately going to sign elsewhere because of a better offer but when you're really just down to two teams and still using other teams outside of those two to try and leverage, it's dishonest negotiating.

Oh I agree. It was dishonest. But he was just looking out for himself and did not give a crap about anyone. Also, like you said, I dont think it helped much since he ended up with 11M anyway.

I did not enjoy the situation as a Sharks fan and did lose respect for Tavares. I think what he did was wrong but atleast I understand (I think) why he did it.

 

[WSS11]

If 11 mil was all he could leverage out of the situation then he and his agent did a poor job. I don't mind the leverage game if you're legitimately going to sign elsewhere because of a better offer but when you're really just down to two teams and still using other teams outside of those two to try and leverage, it's dishonest negotiating.

It is and to be honest he probably would have gotten the same 11MM AAV if his agent just said we’re interested and fielding offers, what can you do? No need to waste all the GMs and Hasso’s time. Lost a lot of respect for Tavares with that unnecessary gong show he put on.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

It is and to be honest he probably would have gotten the same 11MM AAV if his agent just said we’re interested and fielding offers, what can you do? No need to waste all the GMs and Hasso’s time. Lost a lot of respect for Tavares with that unnecessary gong show he put on.

If he took the best offer out there in terms of net value, he would've signed in Dallas. If he wanted to push AAV up for the benefit of all the players then he would've signed in San Jose, I think.

 

[WSS11]

If he took the best offer out there in terms of net value, he would've signed in Dallas. If he wanted to push AAV up for the benefit of all the players then he would've signed in San Jose, I think.

I meant if he was set on signing in Toronto. He would have ended up with the same contract if his agent just approached Dubas in a traditional manner. All that bs and hype to sign a 7 year 11MM AAV. Terrible

 

[Lebanezer]

I certainly think Tavares could handled the situation better but in his defense he was just using everyone else as leverage to get the maximum value out of the Leafs. If he had made it clear right off the bat that it was going to be the Leafs he would have lost a lot of that.

Though, I would have respected him a lot more if he had come out and said right off that the Leafs and Islanders are the two options he has and let them bid it out while letting the other parties pursue other options. He would probably have still walked away with the same deal he took with the TML.

I know the DW made a statement after Tavares made his decision (to go to Toronto) about thanking Tavares for considering us. I would have liked it if Tavares had given some kind of acknowledgement about the effort DW put in to woo him. I did not hear/read a peep of that. Was a little disappointing to me.

DW's statement was probably more to get the word out the players that if you are good and want to get paid, we will do that. I think that message did get across though.

In Tavares’ Player’s tribune article he thanked the other teams but also showed unintentionally that he had no interest in any other teams. The article on the whole is awful. He shouldn’t have written it, it didn’t help anything. I don’t know who suggested the idea to him, but you’re not going to help a fan base heal by telling a bunch of sob stories.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

In Tavares’ Player’s tribune article he thanked the other teams but also showed unintentionally that he had no interest in any other teams. The article on the whole is awful. He shouldn’t have written it, it didn’t help anything. I don’t know who suggested the idea to him, but you’re not going to help a fan base heal by telling a bunch of sob stories.

Agreed. I think that article made things worse.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

If he took the best offer out there in terms of net value, he would've signed in Dallas. If he wanted to push AAV up for the benefit of all the players then he would've signed in San Jose, I think.

11M almost makes me think that Toronto called his bluff and knew that he was going to sign there anyway. I think in the end that is what happens when you go into a negotiation with your mind already made up.

 

[Lebanezer]

11M almost makes me think that Toronto called his bluff and knew that he was going to sign there anyway. I think in the end that is what happens when you go into a negotiation with your mind already made up.

I don’t think Toronto had to call his bluff. They easily discovered his sentimental attachment to the Leafs. It made it easy for them to talk him into a favorable contract. It also wreaks of fanboy immaturity.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

I don’t think Toronto had to call his bluff. They easily discovered his sentimental attachment to the Leafs. It made it easy for them to talk him into a favorable contract. It also wreaks of fanboy immaturity.

Fanboy immaturity sounds a little harsh .. . But he went where he wanted to go to without regard of how much they paid him. This does not happen very often but I guess when you are still making 11M AAV, maybe money was never an issue for him.

 

[Lebanezer]

Fanboy immaturity sounds a little harsh .. . But he went where he wanted to go to without regard of how much they paid him. This does not happen very often but I guess when you are still making 11M AAV, maybe money was never an issue for him.

It is harsh, but he showed no loyalty to the Islanders after all his time there, showed unconditional loyalty to his childhood team, and did not really show any interest in other NHL teams. I think the whole situation was disrespectful to the Islanders, the other teams that pitched to him and to other NHL players. Tavares obviously can do whatever he wants, but all he saw was the Maple Leaf. And given the uniqueness of his situation I think he went about it all wrong.

 

[Maladroit]

It is harsh, but he showed no loyalty to the Islanders after all his time there, showed unconditional loyalty to his childhood team, and did not really show any interest in other NHL teams. I think the whole situation was disrespectful to the Islanders, the other teams that pitched to him and to other NHL players. Tavares obviously can do whatever he wants, but all he saw was the Maple Leaf. And given the uniqueness of his situation I think he went about it all wrong.

Why does he owe the Islanders anything though? It's not like he was some diamond in the rough prospect who the Isles took a chance on, he was literally the first overall pick. If it wasn't the Isles picking first that year some other team would have taken him there. He was forced to spend the first seven years of his career with the Isles by virtue of a ping pong ball and they were completely incapable of building a competent team around him despite him signing a sweetheart second contract. Honestly teams never show the slightest bit of loyalty to their players. P.K. Subban was traded days before his NTC kicked in, after nearly a decade of being an exemplary player and person on and off the ice for Montreal. NHL players have such little leverage, especially compared to other pro sports, and I just can't blame them for using what little they have to the full extent.

I really don't fault Tavares or have any ill will against him. I'm also skeptical that the "childhood team" thing was as big a factor as he's making it out to be. That's not how adults make these kinds of decisions and he seems like a thoughtful guy. The Leafs give him the best possible chance to win a Cup over the next five years of all six teams he talked to and when you combine that with the fact that he already lives in Toronto in the offseason and his fiancee has a full time job in the area it just made the most sense. The pajama boy stuff is a way to sell it to Islanders fans in a way he thought they could understand and would sting less (although that may have been a miscalculation). If he had become a UFA in the pre-Matthews era I highly doubt he signs with the Leafs.

 

[Lebanezer]

Why does he owe the Islanders anything though? It's not like he was some diamond in the rough prospect who the Isles took a chance on, he was literally the first overall pick. If it wasn't the Isles picking first that year some other team would have taken him there. He was forced to spend the first seven years of his career with the Isles by virtue of a ping pong ball and they were completely incapable of building a competent team around him despite him signing a sweetheart second contract. Honestly teams never show the slightest bit of loyalty to their players. P.K. Subban was traded days before his NTC kicked in, after nearly a decade of being an exemplary player and person on and off the ice for Montreal. NHL players have such little leverage, especially compared to other pro sports, and I just can't blame them for using what little they have to the full extent.

I really don't fault Tavares or have any ill will against him. I'm also skeptical that the "childhood team" thing was as big a factor as he's making it out to be. That's not how adults make these kinds of decisions and he seems like a thoughtful guy. The Leafs give him the best possible chance to win a Cup over the next five years of all six teams he talked to and when you combine that with the fact that he already lives in Toronto in the offseason and his fiancee has a full time job in the area it just made the most sense. The pajama boy stuff is a way to sell it to Islanders fans in a way he thought they could understand and would sting less (although that may have been a miscalculation). If he had become a UFA in the pre-Matthews era I highly doubt he signs with the Leafs.

It's not really about owing the Islanders anything or not, it's about treating them with respect. Tavares himself admitted that he had made his decision long before they let anyone else know. It's the same thing with the other 4 teams he met with, they deserved to be told they were out of it. Tavares had every right to choose the Leafs, he earned that right, but he should have handled the situation better.

I don't think that the Maple Leafs are his best chance at winning a cup in the next 5 or 6 years, I think Tampa Bay would have been a better choice.

 

[spintops]

Why does he owe the Islanders anything though? It's not like he was some diamond in the rough prospect who the Isles took a chance on, he was literally the first overall pick. If it wasn't the Isles picking first that year some other team would have taken him there. He was forced to spend the first seven years of his career with the Isles by virtue of a ping pong ball and they were completely incapable of building a competent team around him despite him signing a sweetheart second contract. Honestly teams never show the slightest bit of loyalty to their players. P.K. Subban was traded days before his NTC kicked in, after nearly a decade of being an exemplary player and person on and off the ice for Montreal. NHL players have such little leverage, especially compared to other pro sports, and I just can't blame them for using what little they have to the full extent.

I really don't fault Tavares or have any ill will against him. I'm also skeptical that the "childhood team" thing was as big a factor as he's making it out to be. That's not how adults make these kinds of decisions and he seems like a thoughtful guy. The Leafs give him the best possible chance to win a Cup over the next five years of all six teams he talked to and when you combine that with the fact that he already lives in Toronto in the offseason and his fiancee has a full time job in the area it just made the most sense. The pajama boy stuff is a way to sell it to Islanders fans in a way he thought they could understand and would sting less (although that may have been a miscalculation). If he had become a UFA in the pre-Matthews era I highly doubt he signs with the Leafs.

I wouldn't say he owes it to anyone, but the fans support you / spend their money on your merchandise / etc, if he knew he wasn't going back to NYI he could have left them in a much better situation (getting traded) vs telling them not to trade him. I don't think it's a big deal, but it obviously wasn't the most courteous way of going about it.

It's just nitpicking - but you can even say he led teams on while they missed out on other FAs. If he only had 2 teams in mind he was holding other teams hostage for his own leverage (smart). Plenty of guys are willing to tell teams when they have been crossed off the list