TBN: Sullivan: Grigorenko deserves to go pro

[Paxon]

Vanek was benched in the playoffs in his rookie season too....just saying

More relevantly perhaps, Seguin played all season after being drafted but then was scratched a bunch towards the end of the season. Don't think he played in the playoffs until the Bruins were down big in that series.

Agree 100%... it's a short season and the Sabres need goal scorers not grinders... The problem is Lindy Ruff is in love with grinders... playoffs not so much.

Grigs will get five games but for some reason I already think Ruff is determined to send him down so the old German can play...

Gee, where'd you ever get THAT idea? THE ARTICLE HAS BECOME SENTIENT!!#!##!@

What's with the comments saying "I saw him in the WJC...he wasn't impressive" ???

I watched every minute of every game in the tournament. When the Russians were playing, I really watched out for Grigs. I thought he was consistently dangerous in the O zone and very responsible in the D zone.

He strikes me as a future Dale Hawerchuk type. A guy who looks to pass the puck first, but has a knack for making plays and setting people up with a sweet pass. I thought he looked like a future NHL star.

Yakupov, in contrast, looked like a puck hog with blinders on...another Russian who thinks he can do it all on his own with his glorious level of skill. Those guys are worthless in the NHL, especially come playoff time.

Let's see what Grigs can do in camp and in that 5 game tryout! I'm looking forward to it.

Dale Hawerchuck makes a bit of sense. Dale was a great playmaker but that wasn't his entire game. Grigorenko may not be the most dangerous guy (compared to other high-end offensive talents) going in on a goalie but he has a hell of a shot and shows a good awareness for when to use it and when to create for others. He also has a good capacity for a two-way game if he works at it as his stick is more active than you'd expect and he has pretty good awareness already.

Grigorenko and Kucherov were easily Russia's best forwards and made a hell of a pair. Yakupov and Grigorenko are very different players but in this tournament you can sum up the differences like this: one was flashy and entertaining, one was effective.

 

[Paxon]

Are Euros no longer exempt from that? See Girgensons, Zemgus.

Someone already answered but that rule is an agreement between the CHL and the NHL-AHL. It only applies to players who've played in the CHL. As Zemgus came out of the USHL, he had his choice between going pro (NHL/AHL however that worded out), College as planned, or WHL.

Players drafted out of Euro leagues (which Zemgus wasn't actually) of course also do not have to deal with this restriction, though they have the separate issue of often having time remaining on an outstanding contract in that league, plus they generally prefer developing in their home league over the AHL for a bunch of reasons (pay, familiarity, better league usually).

 

[Revo]

Hey, everything's possible... but watching him play with the Remparts, I don't think he is ready, and you'll get the same opinion from most Q people.

I strongly disagree he hasn't anything left to learn in the Q... for one, leading a team in the playoffs is an experience that certainly seems relevant to have, and it is doubtful he could have it until a few years from now if he stays up, at which point fans are going to want him to actually perform, having a few NHL seasons behind him. He has shown signs of wanting to go into the rewarding areas, he has even finished his checks in some games... but it is very much on and off. I doubt he's suddenly going to do it more regularly when it becomes much tougher to do so.

 

[Daz28]

I want Grigs to stay, because his natural mentality is to get the puck to the net, and the coach hasn't ruined that part of his game yet. I think our playoff might ride on his ability to get pucks through, and Otter and Leino's ability to get dirty goals. I def don't want to see him sent down so Hecht can stay. His deficiency in defense will have to be compensated for(and Grigs D leaves A LOT to be desired imo, esp mano-mano around his own net).

 

[Robert]

Ugh... we can debate Grigs till the cows come home but this I can say, the Sabres did not score enough last season and Grigs can score... His biggest hurdle is the Russian persona that does not apply to all Russian players...

We, as Ruff, need to see how he plays at the NHL level.... if he is anywhere near good we must keep him.. Let’s wait and see…

 

[Chainshot]

One of the best playmaking, big centers of the past 15 years had a 7-point rookie year. Joe Thornton didn't set the world alight, much like Seguin. It is possible to break in a rookie in many ways and not ruin the guy.

 

[Havok89]

If he's capable of playing NHL hockey then he will be on the team. Get him some experience for next season.

 

[Jim Bob]

One of the best playmaking, big centers of the past 15 years had a 7-point rookie year. Joe Thornton didn't set the world alight, much like Seguin. It is possible to break in a rookie in many ways and not ruin the guy.

There is another #1 overall pick at center that had a "disappointing" 23 goal rookie campaign that turned out ok.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/players/4471/career;_ylt=Ak_ETe2PPJM2klr7K6S44qpivLYF

 

[flyingpig]

Hey, everything's possible... but watching him play with the Remparts, I don't think he is ready, and you'll get the same opinion from most Q people.

I strongly disagree he hasn't anything left to learn in the Q... for one, leading a team in the playoffs is an experience that certainly seems relevant to have, and it is doubtful he could have it until a few years from now if he stays up, at which point fans are going to want him to actually perform, having a few NHL seasons behind him. He has shown signs of wanting to go into the rewarding areas, he has even finished his checks in some games... but it is very much on and off. I doubt he's suddenly going to do it more regularly when it becomes much tougher to do so.

That is important and should not be understated. However, it and consistency are factors that need to be weighed against what the coaches see in this brief period and how they best feel he will improve and whether he will help the big club in the process.

 

[CrankyJay]

Can someone explain to me how a rookie can be ruined by moving them up to the NHL too early? If they have a difficult time isn't it a matter of them not being ready...why is there permanent damage? Is this a confidence thing or a bad habits thing?

 

[start winnin]

Can someone explain to me how a rookie can be ruined by moving them up to the NHL too early? If they have a difficult time isn't it a matter of them not being ready...why is there permanent damage? Is this a confidence thing or a bad habits thing?

Mostly them not being able to handle the rigors of the increased competition and as a result their abilities stagnating as opposed to progressing and increasing their abilities at a lower level of competition, confidence is another issue.

 

[Paxon]

Can someone explain to me how a rookie can be ruined by moving them up to the NHL too early? If they have a difficult time isn't it a matter of them not being ready...why is there permanent damage? Is this a confidence thing or a bad habits thing?

It can be, but I think most of the time it's just confirmation bias and the player in question wasn't going to turn out how he did anyhow.

 

[brian_griffin]

Well, I hope he is as advertised at this level and he forces them to keep him up here. If not Q it is and we wait, no huge deal. But it'll be tough making this call though. You get a good Philly team, but if Bryz is playing bad bryz that could lead be tough to evaluate, not to mention Toronto and Carolina x2 and Wash. I don't have much respect for any of those defenses, so he could look amazing yet it could only be a result of the opponent. We'll see. But if he strikes up an obvious chemistry with Leino, I think getting value out of Ville could be mighty tempting to take a shot. Can't wait til sunday.

And by the way, I heard about the board last year, signed up but never got around to reading and most intelligent fan board of any of the others Bills and NHL I visit. Can't wait to see this place when the games get going.

It just devolves into a cesspool of semi-drunken vitriolic pontification.

Most of all, stay out of ze chat during games - a couple perverts and a perverted couple are known to frequent there...
but, if you must go there:
irc.esper.net
#Sabres

 

[Paxon]

It just devolves into a cesspool of semi-drunken vitriolic pontification.

Most of all, stay out of ze chat during games - a couple perverts and a perverted couple are known to frequent there...
but, if you must go there:
irc.esper.net
#Sabres

I prefer to think of it as The Fun Zone

Also, to the fella you were replying to, if you want the best Bills conversation, try http://buffalorumblings.com

 

[ottsabrefan]

Girgensons didn't play in the CHL (juniors) last year. He played in the USHL.

The CHL-NHL agreement dictates the age restrictions.

Euro's and Americans from what I understand. Has nothing to do with whether you played in the CHL or not.

 

[Old Navy Goat]

Euro's and Americans from what I understand. Has nothing to do with whether you played in the CHL or not.

The CHL is the only junior league with an agreement with the NHL that stipulates a player has to be 20 before being eligible to be assigned to the AHL. It doesn't matter if the player in the CHL is Canadian, European, American or Martian.

 

[jfb392]

Euro's and Americans from what I understand. Has nothing to do with whether you played in the CHL or not.

No, it has everything to do with being drafted out of the CHL and nothing to do with nationality.

If a player is drafted out of the CHL, they either make the NHL or return to junior until their 20 year old season.
If you're drafted from anywhere else, you're free to play in the AHL immediately.
Many European teams have existing contracts with their clubs though and are not allowed to break them to play in the AHL.
Players from other leagues (various junior A leagues like the USHL or Canadian provincial) go to another finishing league and can play in the AHL at 19 if they wish (or if you're Girgensons, 18).

 

[ottsabrefan]

No, it has everything to do with being drafted out of the CHL and nothing to do with nationality.

If a player is drafted out of the CHL, they either make the NHL or return to junior until their 20 year old season.
If you're drafted from anywhere else, you're free to play in the AHL immediately.
Many European teams have existing contracts with their clubs though and are not allowed to break them to play in the AHL.

Fair enough. Thanks for the correction. I kept hearing on the NOOF (OHL Forum) that it didn't apply to Americans in the CHL. I guess they weren't in the CHL when they were drafted.

 

[Ace1963]

Careers are short, he needs to be in the bigs. Pierre Turgeon was awful when he began his first season, but by the playoffs he was the best player on the team.

 

[Boose30]

if itll get Leino off his whatever last season was then keep him up here otherwise we got Hecht or give Adam what I would assume to be his final shot before we turn complete focus on Grigorenko and Girgensons as our future C depth

 

[Fire Lindy]

Ott on Grigorenko "He's ready." Obviously it's a management choice if they keep him or not"

Ott also seems like a great guy..really glad we got him. He gives great interviews.

 

[Robert]

One of the best playmaking, big centers of the past 15 years had a 7-point rookie year. Joe Thornton didn't set the world alight, much like Seguin. It is possible to break in a rookie in many ways and not ruin the guy.

I wish I could cross post this post.....see Johansen...

 

[Ralonzo]

But the thing is, this doesn't jibe with what I saw watching Grigo at WJC and the occasional Q hilite. He sets up his linemates so often it's ridiculous and they do so little with those opportunities at that level. He looks like one of those "thinking man's" players like an Adam Oates, who, when given better players to work with, plays better, and helps them play better by playing to their strengths.

I think I had a little observation about Grig not long after the draft, after reading the story of how he arrived in Canada speaking no English (or French for that matter) only 1 year prior. And here's this guy giving a more coherent interview at the draft than half the imports in the league. It might be that he's just a friggin' smart guy. Maybe he thinks the game at a high level because he just thinks at a high level. Guys like that can get frustrated by dumb***t linemates and tend to look pouty/floaty/lazy (sound familiar from Q?) or think, **** it, I'll do it myself (sound familiar from Q?)

There's precedents in the league, like Ken Dryden. If this is indeed the case, I hope gets some clue linemates and doesn't get bored like Ken did.

 

[Chainshot]

I wish I could cross post this post.....see Johansen...

True. There is undeniably a learning curve at each level and how a player learns the nuances of each level is certainly a big part of maturation. Not everyone is great the first day -- and some are made better by learning what it takes to overcome professional adversity.

 

[1972]

It can be, but I think most of the time it's just confirmation bias and the player in question wasn't going to turn out how he did anyhow.

Exactly