Suddenly seeing Peter Horachek in a new light!

[Wafflewhipper]

Just because the roster and management is clearly to blame, doesn't mean Randy wasn't

You were justifiably criticized if you stood up for Carlyle - he was a disaster of a head coach, and one only need to look at the improvement of some of the young players on the roster since PH took over to see how much more comfortable they are playing without Randy.

Holland's comments yesterday on Randy were telling.

Yeah right. This is a loser team and improvements you point to are sketchy. I don't think you have a point that holds water actually. The players were always and still the problem. Admirable you can find improvement in this scrap heap of a team though.

Holland better be careful. Nobody likes a ungrateful rat. Carlyle put him in the Nhl. First thing I thought when I read his comments was he's a weasil. Carlyle apparently got more out of this group of misfits than horachek ever will. Move on dude and find something or someone else to blame,Carlyle is gone.

Thete is a good Clarkson bash thread you would definitely enjoy.

 

[Rufio65*]

Throw the money at Mike Babcock. No?

I think that getting Babcock is a pipe dream. Why would he leave the best organization in hockey to come to an absolute dumpster fire? If Holland says to Mr. Ilitch that they need to keep Babcock then he will open up the cheque book. Ilitch isn't cheap and he wants titles for both his teams at any cost.

Luckily for the Leafs there are several grade "A" candidates that will be available in the off season. Torts, Mike Keenan and Dale Hunter would immediately change the culture IMO. Doug Weight is an up and coming candidate, he was promoted to assistant GM in long island, he is also doing great things as an assistant coach. He is a young, high energy guy that brings credibility.

It is sad to see the state that this franchise is in. They have no pride and Shanny is in way over his head. NJ fired DeBoer and look who they have behind the bench now. 3 guys that bring instant credibility. Horachek is a joke and it's embarrassing that he is our coach. Did Shanny seriously think that the players would respond to this guy? This fan base deserves much better than this.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

I think that getting Babcock is a pipe dream. Why would he leave the best organization in hockey to come to an absolute dumpster fire? If Holland says to Mr. Ilitch that they need to keep Babcock then he will open up the cheque book. Ilitch isn't cheap and he wants titles for both his teams at any cost.

Luckily for the Leafs there are several grade "A" candidates that will be available in the off season. Torts, Mike Keenan and Dale Hunter would immediately change the culture IMO. Doug Weight is an up and coming candidate, he was promoted to assistant GM in long island, he is also doing great things as an assistant coach. He is a young, high energy guy that brings credibility.

It is sad to see the state that this franchise is in. They have no pride and Shanny is in way over his head. NJ fired DeBoer and look who they have behind the bench now. 3 guys that bring instant credibility. Horachek is a joke and it's embarrassing that he is our coach. Did Shanny seriously think that the players would respond to this guy? This fan base deserves much better than this.

Horachek is simply holding them to a game they are not capable of playing and it was always the problem. When teams put the hammer down on this to soft team they wilted. They done with Wilson,with Carlyle and Horachek.

This is going to be broken up because Horachek is exposing them for what they are. Horachek is now another coach driven around the bend with a group that is poorly constructed and very uncompetitive.

The team is one dimensional and if you let them play to their strength (offense) they play well until teams take the body and their space away. They are piss poor character guys really. I wouldn't blame Horry for sticking to his guns any more than I would Carlyle for letting them cheat on defense because they couldn't play that style anyways.

It will get better when we get real character guys with multidimensional tools playing for us.

 

[Hunter74]

True intent of coaching change? It was to put to rest any doubts that it was only the coach or only the players. At first it was obviously the coach who imo blew his opportunity to put it squarely on the players from the beginning of the season by not implementing the system management wanted results be damned.. But now it is squarely on the players no question about that.

I want to know now if it is Phaneuf and Kessel or JVR, Bozak, Lupul, Gardiner or the whole lot?

Doesn't just have to be, Kessel is a selfish baby lets get rid of him or Phaneuf is a jerk lets be rid of him. Next step could be yes Kessel is a baby but the secondary players should have enough character to get over that and a strong coach will break them of it. Or yes Phaneuf is a tool but the secondary guys should still be able to play with passion for each other and the team at the very least. With Phaneuf out of the lineup it shows who has stepped up and shown heart and who hasn't. Maybe nobody could lead these players.

It is clear this roster was not constructed properly. A strong team can handle Kessel not being the strongest defensively but to have 4 (Bozak, JVR, Lupul, Kadri) of your top 6 forwards following his cruddy lead is just not going to work at all. Then try and break in two young offensive defensemen at the same time. wow talk about set up for disaster.


For the coaches - What gets me is WHY can they not hold JVR, Bozak, Lupul and Kadri accountable for their weak play? I can understand it being very hard to handle Kessel but these other guys are not super stars and can be press boxed, benched, ice time cut and so forth but yet nothing! Top line sucks take it out on the other two at least!

Playing with Kessel could be used as a reward. In order to play on Kessel's line you have to toe the coaches line or your off. Yet the coaches are so desperate for results they will cling to this toxic line till the end. Heck you could have 3 set pairs of JVR/Holland, Lupul/Kadri, Bozak/Clarkson and make Kessel the floater who jumps from line to line depending on in game opportunity or which line is riding hot. Yet nothing.

Where is the creativity?

 

[Al14]

If Leafs want to tank next season. They should bring him back. Coaches are measured in wins and losses. Horachek's win loss record in Florida and Toronto is tank worthy.

If we can trade Kessel and Phaneuf, next season will end up being much better than expected IMHO. Without these two slackers setting a bad example, the work ethic will likely improve substantially!

I hope we can turn Kessel and Phaneuf into gold, real gold, not the fools gold these two deliver!

 

[The Thin White Duke]

I really hope they promoted him expecting the current results. Makes sense as a tank move and a final test of character of guys they're considering moving. Plus it lets him try things out that a win-oriented coach wouldn't risk, like getting harsher on the top line and giving Reilly/Gardiner free reign on D.

 

[Suntouchable13]

I really hope they promoted him expecting the current results. Makes sense as a tank move and a final test of character of guys they're considering moving. Plus it lets him try things out that a win-oriented coach wouldn't risk, like getting harsher on the top line and giving Reilly/Gardiner free reign on D.

Every coach is win oriented. There is no way that he is coaching to lose. Every move a coach makes it's because in his mind gives him the best chance of winning.

 

[ironhorse384]

He's doing the best he can with what he's been given. He thought maybe a fresh approach was what's been needed to rejuvenate this squad with more communication and such but clearly that's not working either. So, he appears to be only left with benching guys as a way to motivate, even then I doubt that'll seriously work. These players seem pretty impervious to tough love, white gloves love and benchings, so it'll be interesting to see what he eek out of this group before the end of the season.

 

[Teeder9]

I'm not convinced he's gone from the organization. He was only named interm and i think he's doing exactly what they want. Enforce a legit defensive system and see who sinks and who swims.

And lets be real. Nobody wants to say it, but short of setting anymore dubious records i don't think management wants to earn another point this season.

I agree with this. I'm not so sure he's gone unless the players are still here. This org seems like the type to keep changing coaches until they find one that makes the team better. Sadly, they most likely had that and the team wasn't good enough to win anyway

 

[hfman]

He knows he's history at season's end (possibly even sooner) so he's figured what the heck has he got to lose..... namely take as many of the under-achievers down the tubes with him.

He's making the kind of moves - entirely warranted moves - that previous coaches have been too scared (for whatever reason) to make.

All power to him!

who's to say they won't keep him after this season? He might not be coach, but they could certainly assign him to another role. The guy seems too respectable and likeable to just let go. No ego, respects the media, the players seem to like him (awarding him the sweater on his first win). They should keep him around.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

I'm not convinced we will be impressed with dions return.

When you are growing crops you should not worry if you could cash in on the weeds that you have to remove if ever gonna have something to harvest.

I am fine with a good prospect if the other team takes on the whole contract. I am not expecting a blue chipper or multiple firsts.

 

[RadekBong]

Just because the roster and management is clearly to blame, doesn't mean Randy wasn't

You were justifiably criticized if you stood up for Carlyle - he was a disaster of a head coach, and one only need to look at the improvement of some of the young players on the roster since PH took over to see how much more comfortable they are playing without Randy.

Holland's comments yesterday on Randy were telling.

What did Holland say, can't find it in the news.

 

[hockeywiz542]

What did Holland say, can't find it in the news.

According to Jonas Siegal, Toronto Maple Leaf players feel the environment and culture around the team has changed greatly since Horachek replaced Randy Carlyle as the club's interim head coach.

http://www.tsn.ca/leaf-culture-has-changed-post-carlyle-losing-continues-1.204870

Even as the losing continues – now 20 in the past 24 games – the operation is being run differently in areas that go beyond simple x's and o's – though that's changed, too.

"The leash is a little bit longer on guys that had choke-collars on before, I think," observed Peter Holland ahead of the Tuesday tilt with New York.

Communication has suitably improved between coach and players.

Under Carlyle, errors could be harped on, grilled over and punished with a selected seat on the bench. All of which led to a culture of tension, a culture where emphasis tended toward not making the wrong play as opposed to making the right one.

"I think there was a little bit of a fear to do the right thing all the time with Randy," Holland said, choosing his words carefully as not to disparage the coach who offered him his first respectable NHL opportunity this fall. "And I think with Pete, it's a little bit more of play hockey and yes, play the right way and do the right things, but mistakes are going to happen, you just need to move on from it."

 

[TL12]

I think that getting Babcock is a pipe dream. Why would he leave the best organization in hockey to come to an absolute dumpster fire? If Holland says to Mr. Ilitch that they need to keep Babcock then he will open up the cheque book. Ilitch isn't cheap and he wants titles for both his teams at any cost.

Luckily for the Leafs there are several grade "A" candidates that will be available in the off season. Torts, Mike Keenan and Dale Hunter would immediately change the culture IMO. Doug Weight is an up and coming candidate, he was promoted to assistant GM in long island, he is also doing great things as an assistant coach. He is a young, high energy guy that brings credibility.

It is sad to see the state that this franchise is in. They have no pride and Shanny is in way over his head. NJ fired DeBoer and look who they have behind the bench now. 3 guys that bring instant credibility. Horachek is a joke and it's embarrassing that he is our coach. Did Shanny seriously think that the players would respond to this guy? This fan base deserves much better than this.

Canucks fan here, you don't want torts. He was an embarrassment to the organization

 

[TLeafsFan]

My respect meter for Horachek has gone through the roof!

Anyone see Kessel in a red 4th line practice jersey before?

Red looks good on him.

Are you seeing this Burke?!

 

[WilliamNylander]

Hope they give him another year.

We could really use another lottery pick

 

[-DeMo-]

Brady on the Fan mentioned something this morning - yes Kessel needs a kick in the arse, but you don't want to piss him off so much that he demands a trade. Then it becomes much harder to move him.

no it really doesn't become harder to trade him, if Kessel wants a trade he might be more willing to add teams to his list of teams he would go to actually making it easier to trade, look at E Kane and his issue's there were still lots of teams interested in him, if Kessel was put on the market a lot of teams would be interested and we would get a very good return.

 

[4evaBlue]

Randy is an idiot who alienated Reimer and Grabs to name a few. He is not innocent in all of this.

And what a gem we let slip through our fingers:

2012-2013: 48 GP, 8G, 7A, 16 Pts => 0.33 PPG (27 point pace)
2013-2014: 58 GP, 13G, 22A, 35 Pts => 0.60 PPG (49 point pace)
2014-2015: 46 GP, 9G, 8A, 17 Pts => 0.37 PPG (30 point pace)



I wonder how he'll do on the 4th team in his 4th consecutive season.

Both RC and PH can be blamed for plenty, but these annual collapses don't seem to be on them. The fact that the team went on an 10-0-1 streak right before collectively dropping the ball, which lead to RC's firing was a clear indication of it.

I don't know how Gardiner is receiving as much playtime as he's gotten under either coach, considering how braindead he acts in the defensive zone most of the time. There's also 0 excuse for the pathetic PP system currently employed by the Leafs.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Hope they give him another year.

We could really use another lottery pick

We could really use a coach who develops players, is not afraid to put $5.5m in the pressbox or play the sulking star forward on the 4th line. I hope he sticks around next season, it is not as if what ever coach comes in after him will have a team who can make the playoffs anyway. It should be all about developing players next season and about trying to establish a healthy culture. Small steps.

 

[Parkdale]

We could really use a coach who develops players, is not afraid to put $5.5m in the pressbox or play the sulking star forward on the 4th line. I hope he sticks around next season, it is not as if what ever coach comes in after him will have a team who can make the playoffs anyway. It should be all about developing players next season and about trying to establish a healthy culture. Small steps.

Agree with this. I think this is a viable option that should be seriously considered. Randy was clearly not capable of this. You have to wonder about any player who has a problem playing his best for this coach.

 

[RadekBong]

According to Jonas Siegal, Toronto Maple Leaf players feel the environment and culture around the team has changed greatly since Horachek replaced Randy Carlyle as the club's interim head coach.

http://www.tsn.ca/leaf-culture-has-changed-post-carlyle-losing-continues-1.204870

Thanks.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Agree with this. I think this is a viable option that should be seriously considered. Randy was clearly not capable of this. You have to wonder about any player who has a problem playing his best for this coach.

Randy did well with a veteran team with 3 HHOF on it. He was a bit "laissez faire" in his approach. I really noticed it when watching 24/7. If he is given a team with grown ups who already know what it takes to be successful and get things to work he let them run things and he just coaches. But with a team like the Leafs who has a lot of immature players and not enough leadership to straighten them out he will quickly lose the dressing room.

Horacheck seem to be a bit more pro-active and not afraid to make changes. If that is because he see this as his last chance to prove him self at the NHL level so he say F it, I will coach the way every coach wants to coach. Just as Wilson had regrets that he did not put down his foot or made the tough decisions since he was did not have the balls for it, I think Horacheck wants to come out of this with his head held high no matter the results. The team had already checked out when he took over and every one knows this. They are some of the young ones who seem to play for him, the others play for them self or dont play at all.

But I do think he is some one we should consider keeping around, not because he has the great pedigree but because he seem to be a coach who finally had enough of the bs from certain players and who is not afraid to make changes. If LA had only interviewed successful coaches they would not have hired Sutter and Boston would not have hired Julien. Some times a coach who is fed up with player power and just wants to be in charge with out having to walk on egg shells around star players is just what a franchise needs.

 

[senor martinez]

The players always played harder under Randy. The players are the problem, but as a player it would be pretty hard to take Horachek seriously. He is a terrible coach with absolutely no credibility. His record with 2 different teams speak for itself.

I don't see him in a different light.. he is a stooge, nothing more.

Truth. Horachek is gone, after the season. Wise decision by the shanahan. Not. Horachek should be fired, yesterday.

 

[4evaBlue]

We could really use a coach who develops players, is not afraid to put $5.5m in the pressbox or play the sulking star forward on the 4th line. I hope he sticks around next season, it is not as if what ever coach comes in after him will have a team who can make the playoffs anyway. It should be all about developing players next season and about trying to establish a healthy culture. Small steps.

He's not afraid because he's got no leg to stand on. Based on what transpired, I would be surprised to see him back behind the bench in any capacity for next season. Maybe he's just playing the role of the bad cop before the good cop shows up in town.

Granted the timing for the passing of the torch was somewhat awkward, but Kessel could have deservedly been scratched for any of the games under PH's tenure. Same goes for about a quarter of the roster, but Phil is definitely leading by example.

 

[The Thin White Duke]

Every coach is win oriented. There is no way that he is coaching to lose. Every move a coach makes it's because in his mind gives him the best chance of winning.

Might have been the wrong way to word it. He's not under pressure to have a good looking win-loss record, he won't get fired even if we lose every game from here on out. He knows he's a place-holder until we find the right guy and it gives him freedom to do things that a coach worried about getting fired wouldn't.

Giving young guys more responsibility and more freedom to do what they want is better for them long term but is risky on a game-to-game basis. Taking the kid gloves off with the top line is better for the team long term, but not something that a coach hoping to win a game today or stay employed this year would risk doing.

It saves whoever they have in mind for the head coach long term the trouble of having to clean up the existing mess and get to implementing his system right away next year.