Suddenly seeing Peter Horachek in a new light!

[Giuseppe Sallo]

The players always played harder under Randy. The players are the problem, but as a player it would be pretty hard to take Horachek seriously. He is a terrible coach with absolutely no credibility. His record with 2 different teams speak for itself.

I don't see him in a different light.. he is a stooge, nothing more.

Throw the money at Mike Babcock. No?

 

[Brewsky]

What about Ron Wilson boys? Let's bring him back to get Kessel to run and gun!

 

[member 147413]

The players are making the Carlyle haters look dumb now. Scotty Bowman couldn't help this team.

I don't think that's necessarily true. The players are the major problem in Toronto. Many had that mindset prior to Carlyle's firing, but Carlyle was also a problem, he gave into the players.

Horachek doesn't seem to be listening to the players, he's got the right mentality for this group, he's just not a good coach though.

 

[timlap]

He knows he's history at season's end (possibly even sooner) so he's figured what the heck has he got to lose..... namely take as many of the under-achievers down the tubes with him.

He's making the kind of moves - entirely warranted moves - that previous coaches have been too scared (for whatever reason) to make.

All power to him!

I like Hoarechek. He seems like a good guy. He's got guts. He doesn't seem allergic to the media or to answering direct questions. I can't imagine him surviving as coach past the end of the season, yet he's making a case for himself (despite possibly the worst head coaching record in Leafs history!).

 

[deuce457]

Horachek with this sparkling 2-12-1 and losing 13 of 15 games is daily proving that Carlyle was not the problem.

Now during his pressers he is taking the exact same tone and complaining about the same things as his predecessor.

His 66 NHL games head coaching experience before Toronto is showing through with flying colours.

Carlyle complained about the same things as Wilson and now Horachek is saying the same things as Carlyle. The problem has never been the coaching, its the forwards willingness to play responsible defence.

Kessel, Bozak, Lupul and JVR isn't cutting it.

 

[ULF_55]

Leafs need a teacher, and a timeout room.

I'm hoping Babcock stays in Detroit, and Blashill accepts the challenge in Toronto.

Wings keep graduating players to their team from Grand Rapids, and they're fitting right in and contributing.

Of course that might be due to having good scouting, and coaching in both AHL and NHL. Might not be a fair comparison due to the Wings being a good organization.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Leafs need a teacher, and a timeout room.

I'm hoping Babcock stays in Detroit, and Blashill accepts the challenge in Toronto.

Wings keep graduating players to their team from Grand Rapids, and they're fitting right in and contributing.

Of course that might be due to having good scouting, and coaching in both AHL and NHL. Might not be a fair comparison due to the Wings being a good organization.

I wanted Desjardins last year. He has done a good job in Vancouver. I think Horachek is a good coach for us if we are rebuilding, We could use another high pick next year. Got to give Hunter atleast 2 or 3 drafts to turn this team around.

 

[limeyleafsfan]

The players always played harder under Randy. The players are the problem, but as a player it would be pretty hard to take Horachek seriously. He is a terrible coach with absolutely no credibility. His record with 2 different teams speak for itself.

I don't see him in a different light.. he is a stooge, nothing more.

Sir, your avatar IS the answer! It would probably be a disaster - though could it be much more than it already is - but what a fun ride it would be next season regardless.... Get Torts in!

 

[Mess]

This team checked out long before PH took over and you know that. RC did pretty well with what he had. Face it, flawed collection of players, not the coaches fault. Falls squarely of the shoulders of Burke and Nonis.

You're preaching to the choir.

I've believed this was a player personnel issue from the start which points directly the team builders not the coaches asked to get positive results from flawed players.

Carlyle has 700 games NHL experience and a Stanley Cup and got the most he could out of these flawed players he was given while Horachek's inexperience leads him to naively believe he can get the players to change and to me the results with him as coach is completely expected and predictable.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

This team checked out long before PH took over and you know that. RC did pretty well with what he had. Face it, flawed collection of players, not the coaches fault. Falls squarely of the shoulders of Burke and Nonis.

Hear hear. One would think it was obvious but apparently not.

 

[Raging Bull]

I don't think that's necessarily true. The players are the major problem in Toronto. Many had that mindset prior to Carlyle's firing, but Carlyle was also a problem, he gave into the players.

Horachek doesn't seem to be listening to the players, he's got the right mentality for this group, he's just not a good coach though.

I just meant I thought it was silly some people thought we were going to get rid of Carlyle and suddenly the team would be fixed. I think Randy knew how to get the best out of these players, even though their best usually wasn't near enough. The one thing I do like about Horachek is he is holding players accountable, cutting ice-time and sitting highly played players.

 

[ULF_55]

Carlyle complained about the same things as Wilson and now Horachek is saying the same things as Carlyle. The problem has never been the coaching, its the forwards willingness to play responsible defence.

Kessel, Bozak, Lupul and JVR isn't cutting it.

Top players by cap hit:
1. Kessel
2. Phaneuf
3. Lupul
4. Clarkson
5. van Riemsdyk

6. Bozak
7. Gardiner
8. Franson
9. Robidas
10. Komarov

Top players by compensation:
1. Kessel
2. Phaneuf
3. Lupul
4. Clarkson
5. Gardiner

6. van Riemsdyk
7. Bozak
7. Robidas
9. Franson
10. Kadri
10. Polak

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Top players by cap hit:
1. Kessel
2. Phaneuf
3. Lupul
4. Clarkson
5. van Riemsdyk

6. Bozak
7. Gardiner
8. Franson
9. Robidas
10. Komarov

Top players by compensation:
1. Kessel
2. Phaneuf
3. Lupul
4. Clarkson
5. Gardiner

6. van Riemsdyk
7. Bozak
7. Robidas
9. Franson
10. Kadri
10. Polak

Everyone listed there can go, save for Van Riemsdyk.

 

[Bullseye]

Horachek with this sparkling 2-12-1 and losing 13 of 15 games is daily proving that Carlyle was not the problem.

Now during his pressers he is taking the exact same tone and complaining about the same things as his predecessor.

His 66 NHL games head coaching experience before Toronto is showing through with flying colours.

Yup - where are the Carlyle bashers now? All the crap about puck possession etc. that was spouted on here for a couple of years was nauseating. In the end I wanted a coaching change cause I couldn't stand the whining anymore. Puck possession is an obvious need - but you need good committed players to achieve it.

At the end of the day Tim Lieweke was the correct one - some of our top players have very questionable character (work ethic). I'm convinced he wanted to do a Kessel trade last summer and was veto'd by the MLSE board.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Yup - where are the Carlyle bashers now? All the crap about puck possession etc. that was spouted on here for a couple of years was nauseating. In the end I wanted a coaching change cause I couldn't stand the whining anymore. Puck possession is an obvious need - but you need good committed players to achieve it.

At the end of the day Tim Lieweke was the correct one - some of our top players have very questionable character (work ethic). I'm convinced he wanted to do a Kessel trade last summer and was veto'd by the MLSE board.

Carlyle's coaching stock has probably risen since Horachek took over. In retrospect, he overachieved with this flawed team.

 

[ULF_55]

I just meant I thought it was silly some people thought we were going to get rid of Carlyle and suddenly the team would be fixed. I think Randy knew how to get the best out of these players, even though their best usually wasn't near enough. The one thing I do like about Horachek is he is holding players accountable, cutting ice-time and sitting highly played players.

Randy was operating under a win scenario.

I think Horachek is operating under a fix it scenario.

In the summer we had a long discussion about Kessel, and there was quite a support group quite happy for him to be a useless turd on 100 feet of ice if he was scoring. RC admitted Kessel had his own set of rules, and it seems Horachek might not be in the Kessel is good enough to float camp.

Too bad, I had hope for Kessel. Effort defending has zero to do with who is on his the ice with Kessel. When Kessel looks in the mirror he sees where his problems lie.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Brady on the Fan mentioned something this morning - yes Kessel needs a kick in the arse, but you don't want to piss him off so much that he demands a trade. Then it becomes much harder to move him.

 

[A1LeafNation]

Randy is an idiot who alienated Reimer and Grabs to name a few. He is not innocent in all of this.

 

[hfdshdh]

Yup - where are the Carlyle bashers now? All the crap about puck possession etc. that was spouted on here for a couple of years was nauseating. In the end I wanted a coaching change cause I couldn't stand the whining anymore. Puck possession is an obvious need - but you need good committed players to achieve it.

Nobody's argument was ever that Carlyle was the only problem and this team would be a contender with a different head coach.

The fact that the team's possession numbers shot up almost immediately after Carlyle's firing (as Anaheim's did when he was fired) would suggest that he was, in fact, part of the problem, and that's not even taking into account the piss-poor relationships he had with a number of players.

 

[crkkh]

I would imagine that a lot of Horacheks direction is coming directly from Shanahan...he is approaching the players with more "tough love" all the time...playing the ones who work the hardest and squeezing the players who are not...have a feeling that this may be Shanahan telling the players who really runs this show...not Kessel and Clarkson...the Leafs may have to pay them but they don't have to be nice to them...
Wouldn't be surprised if Horachek got another season to continue this process...as old players are discarded and new ones are brought in to the "new attitude"...then see Horachek either given the job (if the team responds) or put back into an assistant role when a new coach is put in place...I believe that Shanahan likes Nonis and Horachek (mostly the players and an age old attitude problem are the problems) and that their roles with the Leafs will continue in some capacity ...

I will root for Horachek and a collection of players that give a ***** as the last thing we need is another season of a new Coach/GM/President assessing this core...

 

[Mess]

Leafs have only won 4 of their last 24 games under 2 different coaches.

This roster is loaded with coach killers.

Horachek is simply lucky the team has already fired one coach this year otherwise if you lose 12 of your last 13 games you likely are heading for unemployment.

Horachek is now insulated against being fired as a result and can virtually do anything he wants to try and get the best out of the coach killers at his disposal, and that is likely the reason behind Carlyle's removal. This was to see how the coach killers would respond and Shanny even entered the dressing room and told the players as much directy that they were on notice.

 

[Trapper]

Brady on the Fan mentioned something this morning - yes Kessel needs a kick in the arse, but you don't want to piss him off so much that he demands a trade. Then it becomes much harder to move him.

Kessel has a list of teams and I would be working on trading him now. I do not want to be stuck with 7 more years of not caring, conditioning concerns etc. etc. He should be moved this summer.

 

[Bullseye]

Nobody's argument was ever that Carlyle was the only problem and this team would be a contender with a different head coach.

The fact that the team's possession numbers shot up almost immediately after Carlyle's firing (as Anaheim's did when he was fired) would suggest that he was, in fact, part of the problem, and that's not even taking into account the piss-poor relationships he had with a number of players.

Oh yes they did - Randy was the prime and only reason this team was not Cup bound according many on this board today.

 

[Fogelhund]

Carlyle was a problem... both in Anaheim at the end, and here in Toronto.

The players are also a problem.

It doesn't have to be one or the other, it can be, and I do believe was both.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Kessel has a list of teams and I would be working on trading him now. I do not want to be stuck with 7 more years of not caring, conditioning concerns etc. etc. He should be moved this summer.

Totally agree. They just have to be careful with him, unfortunately, I think. Otherwise he can make things much more difficult.