Suddenly seeing Peter Horachek in a new light!

[NiL8r87]

Brady on the Fan mentioned something this morning - yes Kessel needs a kick in the arse, but you don't want to piss him off so much that he demands a trade. Then it becomes much harder to move him.

Might be for the best actually. It could expand the list of teams he'll accept a move to. I don't think it would hurt his value, he's signed long-term and teams know what they are getting with him. The only thing that will hurt his value is if he plays like crap for an extended period.

 

[A1LeafNation]

If there was ever a re-incarnate of the Larry Murphy situation it is Phil Kessel. He will be better and win cups on another team, this one isn't built to win they way it should be.

 

[ULF_55]

Totally agree. They just have to be careful with him, unfortunately, I think. Otherwise he can make things much more difficult.

If Kessel is as good as some claim, he can be traded to one of the teams on his list for a good return.

What is the defense? He's one of the top 5 scorers the last how many years? How could the teams on his list turn that down?

There should be no problem trading him, unless he's overrated.

Should be a bidding war.

 

[hfdshdh]

Oh yes they did - Randy was the prime and only reason this team was not Cup bound according many on this board today.

Examples? I could've just missed it because I only signed up recently, but I did lurk for a while and never saw anybody saying anything remotely like that. That definitely isn't what the advanced stats guys on Twitter were saying throughout Carlyle's tenure anyway. Maybe you just misinterpreted their point?

 

[Trapper]

If Kessel is as good as some claim, he can be traded to one of the teams on his list for a good return.

What is the defense? He's one of the top 5 scorers the last how many years? How could the teams on his list turn that down?

There should be no problem trading him, unless he's overrated.

Should be a bidding war.

Boston got a good deal for him and he wasn't even one of the top 5 scorers back then. We should get plenty of good pieces for a rebuild.
Start the process and the bidding.

 

[Bullseye]

Carlyle was a problem... both in Anaheim at the end, and here in Toronto.

The players are also a problem.

It doesn't have to be one or the other, it can be, and I do believe was both.

Struggling teams have poor possession numbers - I wonder how the Kings compare today to their Cup winning teams of last year and 2 years back? Same coach.

The players ARE the problem. This should be abundantly clear by now.

 

[Bullseye]

Examples? I could've just missed it because I only signed up recently, but I did lurk for a while and never saw anybody saying anything remotely like that. That definitely isn't what the advanced stats guys on Twitter were saying throughout Carlyle's tenure anyway. Maybe you just misinterpreted their point?

Lol go back and search the Randy Carlyle thread and have a good read at what was written there. It'll take you a couple of days to get through it.

 

[MoeMoney]

I agree!

He's doing it his way and I love it. Cutting Phils minutes and putting him on the 4th line...lol....putting Bernier back in the game was hilarious, who does that? And of course benching Clarkson and facing him like a man in practice was nice to see as well. He's doing what's required, tank, play the younger guys, and discipline this team full of soft players. This is is how you build a culture within the team, one day we will look back and thank him for the gorundwork he placed during his time as coach.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Yup - where are the Carlyle bashers now? All the crap about puck possession etc. that was spouted on here for a couple of years was nauseating. In the end I wanted a coaching change cause I couldn't stand the whining anymore. Puck possession is an obvious need - but you need good committed players to achieve it.

At the end of the day Tim Lieweke was the correct one - some of our top players have very questionable character (work ethic). I'm convinced he wanted to do a Kessel trade last summer and was veto'd by the MLSE board.

Yeah its pretty awesome to have that fire Carlyle thread available though. I got patronized right good standing up for him in that thread lol. Its a really good gauge of the degree this group of players is misunderstood by posters though.

Better that Carlyle is gone though if you consider the positioning of our draft pick this year. Carlyle was just working with what he was given,to the best of his ability. I knew that. Maybe its getting tough on fans to accept the losing and they need to blame someone,anyone.

Everyone knows now that its the core and roster makeup to blame finally.

 

[MoeMoney]

Boston got a good deal for him and he wasn't even one of the top 5 scorers back then. We should get plenty of good pieces for a rebuild.
Start the process and the bidding.

Exactly, Phil is a hot commodity depite his lack of effort at times. Fleece Edmonton for two of their young stars and a 1st rounder before MacTavish gets fired and they hire somone who knows what they're doing.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Nobody's argument was ever that Carlyle was the only problem and this team would be a contender with a different head coach.

The fact that the team's possession numbers shot up almost immediately after Carlyle's firing (as Anaheim's did when he was fired) would suggest that he was, in fact, part of the problem, and that's not even taking into account the piss-poor relationships he had with a number of players.

He was letting the lazy,no back check players cheat on offense to try winning with high scoring. He knew this team couldn't defend and was amazing at getting the best out of them for what they are. This is a rotten to the core team.

 

[Bullseye]

Yeah its pretty awesome to have that fire Carlyle thread available though. I got patronized right good standing up for him in that thread lol. Its a really good gauge of the degree this group of players is misunderstood by posters though.

Better that Carlyle is gone though if you consider the positioning of our draft pick this year. Carlyle was just working with what he was given,to the best of his ability. I knew that. Maybe its getting tough on fans to accept the losing and they need to blame someone,anyone.

Everyone knows now that its the core and roster makeup to blame finally.

Agreed

 

[ULF_55]

He was letting the lazy,no back check players cheat on offense to try winning with high scoring. He knew this team couldn't defend and was amazing at getting the best out of them for what they are. This is a rotten to the core team.

Kessel, Phaneuf trades should replenish the prospects pool.

The other players should provide some swings for the fence picks.

 

[hockeyes]

The players are of course the biggest problem. The coach doesn't tell you to lose 1on1 battles and let players blow by you in the neutral zone without even attempting to impeded them.

The biggest difference is, Carlyle was trying to get wins with what he had so that meant letting players get away with things and letting them play their way. Horachek is more concerned about everyone pulling their weight on all ends of the ice rather than winning. Horachek is the best coach for this group today and I wouldn't be upset if he came back next year to continue drilling this into the heads of the players who aren't moved. Carlyle was building a house of cards, Horachek is trying to build with a foundation.

If Carlyle was still here through the rest of the year, this team was still going to miss the playoffs, at least now some players are being held accountable.

 

[Fogelhund]

The players are of course the biggest problem. The coach doesn't tell you to lose 1on1 battles and let players blow by you in the neutral zone without even attempting to impeded them.

The biggest difference is, Carlyle was trying to get wins with what he had so that meant letting players get away with things and letting them play their way. Horachek is more concerned about everyone pulling their weight on all ends of the ice rather than winning. Horachek is the best coach for this group today and I wouldn't be upset if he came back next year to continue drilling this into the heads of the players who aren't moved. Carlyle was building a house of cards, Horachek is trying to build with a foundation.

If Carlyle was still here through the rest of the year, this team was still going to miss the playoffs, at least now some players are being held accountable.

This is my point, and this I agree with. Carlyle was coaching to get the best results out of what he had, in a manner that was never going to achieve anything. In the offseason they brought in new Assistants, with the plan to change that play, and become more defensively responsible. Ultimately, being defensively responsible is what wins. These players did not respond at all to Carlyle and they weren't becoming what was desired from the top.

I'd like to see now after a few games the stats for Horachek's team, in shots against, shots differential, possession, etc... (compared to Carlyle) I know the team isn't winning, but it feels like they are playing a style that with the right players, it is something to build on.

We needed a new style of play, and new players. It wasn't just Carlyle, it was a lot of things... Nonis, the players.. it's been bad from top to bottom.

 

[HockeyThoughts]

I just meant I thought it was silly some people thought we were going to get rid of Carlyle and suddenly the team would be fixed. I think Randy knew how to get the best out of these players, even though their best usually wasn't near enough. The one thing I do like about Horachek is he is holding players accountable, cutting ice-time and sitting highly played players.

You fire Randy Carlyle like he deserved to be this offseason and hire Peter Laviolette and I have no doubt we'd be in a lot better position then we are now.

The problem with this team is we continually try to stick a square peg in a round hole. We have quick, skilled offensive team that was being coached with no real system under Carlyle. He certainly wasn't defensive, and while we scored a lot of goals the man has no idea how to close out a game, play a possession game (which is less taxing on your players over the course of a season) or utilize his best players appropriately.

None of this is hindsight either, I've been saying the same thing since the offseason much before Carlyle was deservedly fired and Laviolette's Nashville Predators rose to the top of the league.

 

[Bullseye]

Yes to all the sensible arguments above.

My problem is with posters that think Bruce Boudreau could walk in here and turn the Leafs around just like he did with the Ducks after Carlyle. It's not the same situation. And Randy is not the reason we didn't succeed and went into massive tail-spins. I guess neither was Wilson by implication - I just hated Wilson more personally in a completely arbitrary way.

Anyway - old dead argument.

 

[Bullseye]

You fire Randy Carlyle like he deserved to be this offseason and hire Peter Laviolette and I have no doubt we'd be in a lot better position then we are now.

The problem with this team is we continually try to stick a square peg in a round hole. We have quick, skilled offensive team that was being coached with no real system under Carlyle. He certainly wasn't defensive, and while we scored a lot of goals the man has no idea how to close out a game, play a possession game (which is less taxing on your players over the course of a season) or utilize his best players appropriately.

None of this is hindsight either, I've been saying the same thing since the offseason much before Carlyle was deservedly fired and Laviolette's Nashville Predators rose to the top of the league.

It's this thinking that is flawed. Laviolette took over and excellent team that needed a slightly different approach to get them over the top.

The Leafs are not the Preds.

 

[Faltorvo]

Leafs have only won 4 of their last 24 games under 2 different coaches.

This roster is loaded with coach killers.

Horachek is simply lucky the team has already fired one coach this year otherwise if you lose 12 of your last 13 games you likely are heading for unemployment.

Horachek is now insulated against being fired as a result and can virtually do anything he wants to try and get the best out of the coach killers at his disposal, and that is likely the reason behind Carlyle's removal. This was to see how the coach killers would respond and Shanny even entered the dressing room and told the players as much directy that they were on notice.

ding ding ding

we

have

a


winner.

 

[Faltorvo]

Kessel, Phaneuf trades should replenish the prospects pool.

The other players should provide some swings for the fence picks.

I'm not convinced we will be impressed with dions return.

 

[Pilky01]

Horachek is a weird looking guy.

 

[Mess]

Carlyle was a problem... both in Anaheim at the end, and here in Toronto.

The players are also a problem.

It doesn't have to be one or the other, it can be, and I do believe was both.

Agreed

So the Leafs changed the coach & the system and the team results got worse.

So that means Carlyle with this roster >>> Horachek with this roster.

So what was the true intent of the coaching change, was it to make the results worse and the draft pick better, or expose the players?

 

[Tak7]

Yeah its pretty awesome to have that fire Carlyle thread available though. I got patronized right good standing up for him in that thread lol. Its a really good gauge of the degree this group of players is misunderstood by posters though.

Better that Carlyle is gone though if you consider the positioning of our draft pick this year. Carlyle was just working with what he was given,to the best of his ability. I knew that. Maybe its getting tough on fans to accept the losing and they need to blame someone,anyone.

Everyone knows now that its the core and roster makeup to blame finally.

Just because the roster and management is clearly to blame, doesn't mean Randy wasn't

You were justifiably criticized if you stood up for Carlyle - he was a disaster of a head coach, and one only need to look at the improvement of some of the young players on the roster since PH took over to see how much more comfortable they are playing without Randy.

Holland's comments yesterday on Randy were telling.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Just because the roster and management is clearly to blame, doesn't mean Randy wasn't

You were justifiably criticized if you stood up for Carlyle - he was a disaster of a head coach, and one only need to look at the improvement of some of the young players on the roster since PH took over to see how much more comfortable they are playing without Randy.

Holland's comments yesterday on Randy were telling.

This exactly.
But what were Holland's comments?

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Kessel, Phaneuf trades should replenish the prospects pool.

The other players should provide some swings for the fence picks.

Yeah and we would get to rebuild the right way like it should have been all along. I am seriously more interested in building the team than watching the games. I definitely shrug like nothing when we lose. I just go check how many places we dropped in the standings. The only thing I am wanting is the third slot going into the lottery.

I want a top notch rebuild though. Not just what Kessel and Phaneuf get us. They will get a great haul as you suspect I think. Only keep the young guys. It allows us to look longer at Gardiner and Kadri.

I want the quality of the organization to raise alot,top to bottom.