Confirmed with Link: Subban wins the Norris!!!!! (per Reality)

[groovejuice]

No, you're not. He's a 24 year old Norris winner with impeccable progression. Luckily for us, his best is yet to come.

Can't imagine how dominant he'll be at 30.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Off the top of my head, LJV and Patches.

I think we can lose the "J" now, he hasn't been called that since at least a year ago

Now it's just Le Pauvre Veber

 

[Habs]

Can't imagine how dominant he'll be at 30.

He'll either be similar to Dan Boyle, or... Mike Green. I don't think he has the defensive awareness to be a Niedermayer clone ( I know that's a pretty big player to live up to)

 

[Claimed Off Waivers]

at the main board. One week later and people are still crying.

 

[chaosrevolver]

He'll either be similar to Dan Boyle, or... Mike Green. I don't think he has the defensive awareness to be a Niedermayer clone ( I know that's a pretty big player to live up to)

He is already better than Green and I would argue as good as Boyle.

 

[Habs]

He is already better than Green and I would argue as good as Boyle.

Wasn't long ago Green was the talk of the hockey world, he had more praise than anyone. My point is, it can all come crashing down on dmen, look at Brian Campbell.

 

[Forsead]

Wasn't long ago Green was the talk of the hockey world, he had more praise than anyone. My point is, it can all come crashing down on dmen, look at Brian Campbell.

Green was bashed by so many people you would have thought he was worse than Traverse.

 

[Gally11]

Wasn't long ago Green was the talk of the hockey world, he had more praise than anyone. My point is, it can all come crashing down on dmen, look at Brian Campbell.

100%


Can even throw Drew Doughty in there to an extent he's still a solid amazing D but people don't talk about him as much except for his playoff run last year.. Other than that he hasn't been on same upward projection over last few years, sure Subban has had better numbers over last 3 seasons

 

[Mrb1p]

100%


Can even throw Drew Doughty in there to an extent he's still a solid amazing D but people don't talk about him as much except for his playoff run last year.. Other than that he hasn't been on same upward projection over last few years, sure Subban has had better numbers over last 3 seasons

You're wrong if you think Doughty is not a top 10 dman in the league.

 

[Dr Gonzo]

Wasn't long ago Green was the talk of the hockey world, he had more praise than anyone. My point is, it can all come crashing down on dmen, look at Brian Campbell.

Green's big knock was his defensive game, which was shown to be fairly weak, whereas Subban's defensive game is top notch. So there are a few similarities between the two, but there are obvious and distinct differences.

 

[PricePkPatch*]

Probably one of the best and fairest description of Subban's talent I've seen on the main forum (or this forum, to be fair)

Yes...big time, those should be alot of fun.

My opinion on Karlsson has always been the same, he's as good of an offensive talent as i've seen on the blueline in all my years of watching hockey. The guy's hockey sense is just off the charts, he thinks the game 1 and sometimes 2 steps ahead.

Defensively, he's improved every year...though I don't ever think he'll be a stalwart defensively, he's just not physically strong enough and really struggles with his pivots.

As far as Subban goes...I think he's very underrated defensively. He's almost never beat in 1 on 1 situations and he excels at retrieving pucks in his own end to either clear the zone or start the rush himself. His defensive game is way ahead of his offensive game as far as I'm concerned, although he made some big strides in this aread this year. He learned how to harness alot of his athletic abilities and started showcasing more hockey sense and knowing when to turn it on/off...

They are two great defensman, no matter what either fanbase says and the comparison between both is probably a lot closer then either fanbase would care to admit.

That being said, I think where Karlsson has the edge at this point in his career is that he's a bit more refined...he understands how to manage the tempo of the game a bit better then Subban does for now. Subban is just full of great intentions, which is great sometimes but he's got to learn when/how/where to turn it on...

I remember watching the WJC's a few years ago and thinking to myself that both of these guys will win the Norris one day, didn't think it would happen so soon (assuming Kypreos is right)

Subban's main strength on defense is his clever use of his great athletic abilities. He engage the opposition's forward in a puck battle near the walls, but always position himself to have a clear getaway and anticipates their reaction. Basically, it's about to know when to struggle physically to get the upper hand.

Obviously, he's also good at passing and his speed to recover the puck is great. But his main strength is the combination of smart play and physicality.

Also, Subban's desire to change the flow of the play is, like 417 says, not perfect. He is filled with enthusiasm, but it's my assessment that he is getting better and better at it. Still not up to par with the bests (Karlsson and Markov, let's not fool ourselves, Karlsson is an elite 4th attacker during transition plays) but he is progressing leaps and bounds. As good as he currently is, unless he hits a mental wall somewhere, he will just mature and get better at knowing when to pitch and when to be conservative.

I suspect Subban will probably hit his physical peak in 2-3 years, but will still improve for a while after that.

 

[Habs]

Green's big knock was his defensive game, which was shown to be fairly weak, whereas Subban's defensive game is top notch. So there are a few similarities between the two, but there are obvious and distinct differences.

I guess this is where you and I will never agree. Stating his defensive game is 'top notch' is something I can't even begin to debate with you, if you have this iconic view of his play already.

 

[PricePkPatch*]

I guess this is where you and I will never agree. Stating his defensive game is 'top notch' is something I can't even begin to debate with you, if you have this iconic view of his play already.

I will be perfectly honest. I have a hard time seeing how Subban could improve further his defensive game. He is already very active and physical. Beside growing 4 more inches and becoming a crease-clearer as effective as Chara, or suddenly developing a perfect defensive IQ, what could he do better?

(I may sound sarcastic/aggressive, but do not perceive this post as an attack. )

 

[Slew Foots]

Probably one of the best and fairest description of Subban's talent I've seen on the main forum (or this forum, to be fair)



Subban's main strength on defense is his clever use of his great athletic abilities. He engage the opposition's forward in a puck battle near the walls, but always position himself to have a clear getaway and anticipates their reaction. Basically, it's about to know when to struggle physically to get the upper hand.

Obviously, he's also good at passing and his speed to recover the puck is great. But his main strength is the combination of smart play and physicality.

Also, Subban's desire to change the flow of the play is, like 417 says, not perfect. He is filled with enthusiasm, but it's my assessment that he is getting better and better at it. Still not up to par with the bests (Karlsson and Markov, let's not fool ourselves, Karlsson is an elite 4th attacker during transition plays) but he is progressing leaps and bounds. As good as he currently is, unless he hits a mental wall somewhere, he will just mature and get better at knowing when to pitch and when to be conservative.

I suspect Subban will probably hit his physical peak in 2-3 years, but will still improve for a while after that.

I agree with both 417 and you. I would rate Subban's defensive game higher than his offensive game. His offensive decision-making, while rapidly improving, is still one of his weaker points.

I don't understand how people can think Subban is weak defensively. When physically engaging opposing forwards, the way he always positions his body relative to the opposing player, the puck and the net is simply incredible. He's not perfect defensively, but he's already great.

 

[Dr Gonzo]

I guess this is where you and I will never agree. Stating his defensive game is 'top notch' is something I can't even begin to debate with you, if you have this iconic view of his play already.

Do you have any arguments on why it's not? Or how he could improve his defensive game?

I can state all the advanced stats, basic stats and plays I have witnessed if you'd like.

But if you already have a flawed negative perception of his defensive play, then perhaps you are right and it's not worth the time it would take to show you how wrong you are.

 

[417]

As a few have mentioned, I don't know how much more Subban's game defensively can improve much more from here on out...i happen to think that's he's clearly the Habs best defensive dman, by a landslide no less...he's really underrated in this aspect of the game.

He can certainly stand to improve in terms of reading the play and his defensive positioning, but one vs one, few dmen come out on top of their matchup as much as Subban does...

The guy is a rock defensively as far as I'm concerned

Offensively is where I think his game has the most room for improvement

 

[Bob Lemoche]

I guess this is where you and I will never agree. Stating his defensive game is 'top notch' is something I can't even begin to debate with you, if you have this iconic view of his play already.

To keep it simple :

You're wrong, he's right.

Unless you interpret top notch as top 5 in the league defensively.... I believe he's top 10-15% right now in the league as far as his defensive play is concerned. His biggest strength in his own zone right now is how involved he is and how he's able to counter an aggressive forecheck with his skills, balance and strength. He's also very good at getting the puck back and excellent at making good passes when he has little time. His athletic abilities helps him in one on one situations and with battle along the boards.

There's not much to dislike about Subban's defensive play and even his decision making has been top notch over long stretches in the last two years with a few hiccups along the way (generally over short stretches of games). And that's despite being only 23 years old. The fact that he still has room to improves only makes it more impressive.

To compare his potential to Green and Boyle is mindboggling to me considering he already surpassed them both at 23.

I've been preaching his talent for the last 2 - 3 years and I'm always surprised when people can't see it. I guess there's always a few that can't even see greatness when it hit them.

 

[Mrb1p]

I guess this is where you and I will never agree. Stating his defensive game is 'top notch' is something I can't even begin to debate with you, if you have this iconic view of his play already.

Quick! When was the last time you saw Subban make a glaring mistake in his own zone?!?!?!? Find a video! GO.

Subban is a better defensive Dman than he his an offensive.

 

[Born in 1909]

In the new season, when the Habs play out west, people will be blown away by PK and how his game has grown.

 

[GlassesJacketShirt]

Quick! When was the last time you saw Subban make a glaring mistake in his own zone?!?!?!? Find a video! GO.

Subban is a better defensive Dman than he his an offensive.

I agree in general, and I think people take every mistake Subban does make too seriously. To put it in context, imagine if Subban put up Chara's performance in the recent game four. People would be calling him ECHL quality for the screwups he made.

 

[Halifaxhab*]

Wasn't long ago Green was the talk of the hockey world, he had more praise than anyone. My point is, it can all come crashing down on dmen, look at Brian Campbell.

Green was bashed by so many people you would have thought he was worse than Traverse.

100%


Can even throw Drew Doughty in there to an extent he's still a solid amazing D but people don't talk about him as much except for his playoff run last year.. Other than that he hasn't been on same upward projection over last few years, sure Subban has had better numbers over last 3 seasons

Expectations/injuries(in Green's case) are what caused their downgrading. Once they signed their big money deals, their play took a little dip...but because they were making 7M or close to it instead of 2M it was a kiss of death for many.

Doughty is definately a top 10 dman....maybe top 5. Campbell is solid, and Green would be better if not for a glass skull

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Subban's game has improved every single year since we have drafted him.

It's hard to believe it can improve more after he has just won the Norris. But I await with baited breath the next season to see if it has. And I've seen a lot of NHL hockey in my life. That is how good Subban is to think he can improve some more even after having won a Norris.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

You're wrong if you think Doughty is not a top 10 dman in the league.

He certainly is. Guy is a monster back there. Not sure what happened to the point production but he's just awesome on the back end.

Quick! When was the last time you saw Subban make a glaring mistake in his own zone?!?!?!? Find a video! GO.

Subban is a better defensive Dman than he his an offensive.

Subban makes the occassional glaring mistake but it comes with the territory.

Two years ago those mistakes were far more frequent. Last year less so. This season you didn't see it much. He's improved year over year in an almost linear progression. Lots of kids start of with great raw skills but never develop them and for Subban, everything has gone right. It's more than I ever expected from him. He's among the best blueliners in the league right now.

Subban's game has improved every single year since we have drafted him.

It's hard to believe it can improve more after he has just won the Norris. But I await with baited breath the next season to see if it has. And I've seen a lot of NHL hockey in my life. That is how good Subban is to think he can improve some more even after having won a Norris.

He is pretty scary. I can't remember seeing a blueliner with his speed. He's still improving defensively but he's already very good on that side. Offensively he's pretty sick.

 

[Whitesnake]

Seabrook, this overtime Hawks hero keeps making a whole lot of mistakes out there...yet is also perceived as quite solid. But the day PK makes a couple...he is suddenly overrated. Again....this is getting freakin old. Chara is a beast defensively, and yet can look totally stupid in some occasions and so on.....

 

[Wats]

Seabrook, this overtime Hawks hero keeps making a whole lot of mistakes out there...yet is also perceived as quite solid. But the day PK makes a couple...he is suddenly overrated. Again....this is getting freakin old. Chara is a beast defensively, and yet can look totally stupid in some occasions and so on.....

Subban has had something none of the others ever had - preconceived notion of being bad defensively/purely offensive player + the ire of the general masses for just being himself.