Subban Contract Talk VIII - Always darkest before the dawn...?

[JoelWarlord]

Always amazes me that people are meh or mildly disappointed about signings like Moen, Murray, and Prust all at about 1M too much each, but signing an elite player for 1.5-2M over market value is going to hamstring the franchise.

Cap space doesn't play 25 minutes a night or win Norris trophies.

 

[Le Barron de HF]

Take out PK and Id do it.

I wouldn't do it for PK straight up.

Yeah unfortunately for us I don't think they'd deal that for DD

 

[Ineverplayedthegame]

Common sense would say that if PK is asking for $8.5 million for a RFA year, he is probably asking well above $10 million for his UFA years.

The leftover Cap is around $11. That would hamstring this team and would not give Bergevin an opportunity to improve this team.

We would be in the same situation as last season. Good enough to make the playoffs and a small run. But not good enough to win the Cup. The only difference would be PK enjoying his overflowing wealth.

No thanks.

Emelin+Prust+Moen=8.5M$

Can be replaced by AHLers/prospects/sub 1M UFA and the team barely misses a beat. Lose Subban, try replacing him.

 

[Compile]

to you maybe...

Why is there trades if GMs always were ready to wait for UFA ? It makes total sense... if you're able to grasp it...

Nice try undermining my intelligence.

The fact you think PK will garner a superstar in return is a joke. No team will give up that for a guy that the Habs CANNOT sign.

It's pretty easy to understand. Why break the bank when you can wait for him to be a UFA and lose 0 assets.

Trades happen to IMPROVE a team, not to go sideways (as you think offering superstar for superstar = upgrade).

Please tell me oh wise one, what team would give up their superstar D man for PK, seeing how trading him would leave a MASSIVE hole on this team.

****ing jackass.

 

[Ineverplayedthegame]

Always amazes me that people are meh or mildly disappointed about signings like Moen, Murray, and Prust all at about 1M too much each, but signing an elite player for 1.5-2M over market value is going to hamstring the franchise.

Cap space doesn't play 25 minutes a night or win Norris trophies.

Need to pay for the intangibles.

 

[sheed36]

PK's still saying all the right things to the media but you know he isn't happy with how this is going with the Habs and I don't blame him.

 

[25get]

What makes you think Molson isn't involved as is? It's over 1/20 billion dollar deal. I'd assume he's involved.

Still, I choose Subban over MB any day but Molson could've been in MB's camp the whole time.

Molson was there outside with Bergevin.
I am sure he is heavily involved.

 

[Winter Eclipse]

Looking forward to the 2 big name players we're gonna get wit all dat kapSPACE when Greedy Ol' Subban gets tossed out by Marc-y Bee!!

 

[Frankenheimer]

I guess all that matters is if Geoff Molson wants to give Subban his demands. Molson could wait and see, and if Bergevin doesn't sign him long term by next year, just fire him and get a yes man. So from Molson' perspective, there's really no threat of losing him and Bergevin can act as the bulldog for now.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Common sense would say that if PK is asking for $8.5 million for a RFA year, he is probably asking well above $10 million for his UFA years.

The leftover Cap is around $11. That would hamstring this team and would not give Bergevin an opportunity to improve this team.

We would be in the same situation as last season. Good enough to make the playoffs and a small run. But not good enough to win the Cup. The only difference would be PK enjoying his overflowing wealth.

No thanks.

Your baseless assumption =/= common sense

Subban himself as refuted claims he wants to be the highest paid defenseman, nevermind the highest paid player in the entire league. Based on how Subban has conducted himself, it is far more likely his arbitration demands are close to what he actually wants long term. Furthermore, both Weber and Eller refute this supposed theory of yours.

Weber was awarded 7.5M in arbitration; subsequently signed an offer sheet for 7.8M
Eller's arbitration demands were 3.1M; subsequently re-signed for 3.5M

Therefore, as I said, it is likely Subban would sign at 9M, not 11M+

 

[Bergevillain]

Any chance one of Meehan/MB cracks before Sunday? I wish this organization wasn't so ******* air tight, I need some info leaks.

 

[Hoople]

Emelin+Prust+Moen=8.5M$

Can be replaced by AHLers/prospects/sub 1M UFA and the team barely misses a beat. Lose Subban, try replacing him.

I get what you are saying and do not disagree with you at all.

However, we exist in the real world, not in a world of fantasy hockey.

Emelin injured his knee severely and had an off season regarding his standards. Emelin hopefully will be back to his old ways of being physical (yes, we need physical DMen on this team).

Prust and Moen are shot physically. Who are you going to trade them to? The Habs are out of compliance buyouts.

So I get what you are saying in principle and agree. Reality is not going to allow that to happen.

Hindsight is 20/20. If Bergevin would have knows the fates of Prust and Moen, he should not have signed them. But he didnt. No one did.

 

[Mario Lemieux fan 66]

You know why you've never seen a cup in Montreal? Because we haven't had superstars. That's the bottom line. When you don't have superstars, you don't win cups. Now we've got TWO of them and we're ****ing around with this arbitration nonsense.

Doesn't have a Conn Smythe? Are you serious with this? Stamkos hasn't won one either so I guess he can't get paid too?

Nonsense.

.

When i was Young, Habs team were Koivu+ a good goalie + an AHL team. NOw Habs have a good team with depth but play in a salary cap league. Write me without laughing why Subban deserve to be a top 3 paid players.

I don't understand why for some of you Malkin money ( the maximum i would pay Subban if i were GM) is a slap in the face for Subban. There is a limit to overpay Subban and that's mine.

Stamkos has won Rocket Richard trophy and was close to win some Art Ross trophy.

 

[GlassesJacketShirt]

Looking forward to the 2 big name players we're gonna get wit all dat kapSPACE when Greedy Ol' Subban gets tossed out by Marc-y Bee!!

Shoulda tossed out Subban earlier so he could sign Orpik and Niskanen. Oh well

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Craig Button made a good point on the radio that a lot of this has to do with leverage. PK will have more leverage as he gets closer to UFA status, so it wouldn't make sense for Bergevin to bend too much right now.

#1 Craig Button doesn't have a job anymore as NHL gm. There's a reason for that, he was bad.

#2 Any move that would surrender leverage is Pejorative Slured. The closer Subban is to UFA status the more leverage he has. This means that the longer we hold out, the more leverage Subban gets. How is it smart to play hard ball and not make concessions at this point ?

 

[Hoople]

Your baseless assumption =/= common sense

Subban himself as refuted claims he wants to be the highest paid defenseman, nevermind the highest paid player in the entire league. Based on how Subban has conducted himself, it is far more likely his arbitration demands are close to what he actually wants long term. Furthermore, both Weber and Eller refute this supposed theory of yours.

Weber was awarded 7.5M in arbitration; subsequently signed an offer sheet for 7.8M
Eller's arbitration demands were 3.1M; subsequently re-signed for 3.5M

Therefore, as I said, it is likely Subban would sign at 9M, not 11M+

Meehan is an attorney. And with that, he has honed his gift of parsing words with perfect nuance to allow people to think one thing while intending another.

He said "highest paid defenseman" in the League. He expertly excluded any mention of highest AAV.

I could/might/probably be wrong. I have learned over the years to take whatever comes out of the mouth of an attorney with a grain of salt. Especially a hardass like Meehan.

 

[Lebowski]

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-p...-bergevin--montreal-canadiens--211012830.html

What you fail to grasp, along with the author of the article, is that this is a two-way street which involves the relationship you have with the player and the end result of contract negotiations. Bergevin has tried his best to piss off the team's best player, and we might just lose him for that reason at the end of the day.

These cap discussions make me laugh. As if paying Subban 5M on a mid term contract would've screwed the team... We had, and still have, plenty of expendable "assets" to cover for that 2M of cap space. It may had even saved us from that dumb Briere signing to boot.

The bottom line is that from the day Subban was forced to sign that ridiculous deal, Bergevin has done nothing but putting his best player on his bad side while not gaining ANYTHING of value in return. We're now sittig here wondering if PK will be gone by the end of next year.

That was all Bergevin's fault. And he just keeps digging deeper and deeper by the looks of it.

 

[RandR]

#1 Craig Button doesn't have a job anymore as NHL gm. There's a reason for that, he was bad.

#2 Any move that would surrender leverage is Pejorative Slured. The closer Subban is to UFA status the more leverage he has. This means that the longer we hold out, the more leverage Subban gets. How is it smart to play hard ball and not make concessions at this point ?

I find Button to very informative on a wide range of matters. I'll leave it at that.

 

[hockeyfan2k11]

Always amazes me that people are meh or mildly disappointed about signings like Moen, Murray, and Prust all at about 1M too much each, but signing an elite player for 1.5-2M over market value is going to hamstring the franchise.

Cap space doesn't play 25 minutes a night or win Norris trophies.

Funny, isn't it? No issue with overpaying Emelin or Gorges...but wait! PK being $1-2M overpaid is a PROBLEM!!!

 

[Cole Caulifield]

I find Button to very informative on a wide range of matters. I'll leave it at that.

And what about #2 ?

 

[beowulf]

I just cannot believe it has come this far. From the sound of it PK was not impressed after the hearing and if this causes him to leave I will lose a certain amount of interest in the Habs.

 

[JoelWarlord]

Funny, isn't it? No issue with overpaying Emelin or Gorges...but wait! PK being $1-2M overpaid is a PROBLEM!!!

And the very fact that Parros and Murray were even on an NHL roster is an inherent overpayment. Between Briere, Murray, Prust, Moen, and Parros, that's something in the range of 10M dollars spent frivolously. Why should PK take a pay cut to enable that kind of decision making?

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

Meehan is an attorney. And with that, he has honed his gift of parsing words with perfect nuance to allow people to think one thing while intending another.

He said "highest paid defenseman" in the League. He expertly excluded any mention of highest AAV.

I could/might/probably be wrong. I have learned over the years to take whatever comes out of the mouth of an attorney with a grain of salt. Especially a hardass like Meehan.

Which is fine, however there is not precedence to assume Subban will go along with it. Given what we know, it is far more plausible Bergevin is trying to keep Subban around 6.5-7M than him wanting 11M+

Frankly, I think you are reading too much into Meehan's comment. Even AAV would have to be under 10.5M, otherwise he's contradicted himself - a possibility sure, just not one I suspect Subban to partake in.

 

[Ineverplayedthegame]

I get what you are saying and do not disagree with you at all.

However, we exist in the real world, not in a world of fantasy hockey.

Emelin injured his knee severely and had an off season regarding his standards. Emelin hopefully will be back to his old ways of being physical (yes, we need physical DMen on this team).

Prust and Moen are shot physically. Who are you going to trade them to? The Habs are out of compliance buyouts.

So I get what you are saying in principle and agree. Reality is not going to allow that to happen.

Hindsight is 20/20. If Bergevin would have knows the fates of Prust and Moen, he should not have signed them. But he didnt. No one did.

Don't need insight to know that signing a relatively unproven player coming off a big injury before he even came back from said injury to a big deal is a bad idea. Don't need insight to know that giving term to fourth liners is a bad idea. Not saying that those moves never ever work out but they rarely do.

 

[habfan1968]

$19,716,667 = Cap space

14 = Roster size

2015-2016

Take away Subban's new cap hit of say $7.7m, we are left with $12m to complete the roster. 15 signed players, 8 to go. Nathan and Jarrod get 2 each on bridge deals, Alex G and Brendan G each get 3 on bridge deals then you still have to address Bournival and Malhotra. We still need a back up goalie, we still need 2 more depth defense men and a another forward. And , we need room to make a move at the trade dead line every year for that guy that helps us. That is the best case, every half million more Subban gets AAV puts in a worse position in contending years.