Recalled/Assigned: Strome returned to the OHL

[PhoPhan]

Agreed. Yak moves his feet all the time. Doesn't mean much if you're not where you need to be.

On the other hand, Tipp doesn't seem to believe confidence should effect young players. Which is frightening to me, because we move guys from 20 minutes a night to 8 to the healthy scratch for no real discernible reason. Seen it with Dvo and Chych already this season.

The key word here is "discernible," which is of course relative. Truthfully I don't really give a **** if you or I know what's going on, as long as the parties actually involved (coach, management and players alike) do.

 

[_Del_]

Again, if I saw a healthy history of development under this coach, we'd probably be having a different conversation. In the absense of that, and in light of some high profile failures at evaluation, it bothers me that many people including myself and even some DT supporters don't seem to be able to make sense of decisions.

 

[PhoPhan]

Again, if I saw a healthy history of development under this coach, we'd probably be having a different conversation. In the absense of that, and in light of some high profile failures at evaluation, it bothers me that many people including myself and even some DT supporters don't seem to be able to make sense of decisions.

Turris was obviously botched, but I maintain that goes back to Gretzky (Boedker, too) to some extent or another. More recently, though, he's done a fine job with all of the young defensemen he's worked with, Domi is on pace to score about 60 points in his second season (more if his shooting percentage regresses to the mean a bit), and Martinook has greatly exceeded expectations. Duclair looked good last year, and while he's been extremely snakebitten this year (his shooting percentage dropped from an unsustainably high 19% last season to an unsustainably low 4.5% this season), sophomore slumps are hardly uncommon, and his shots per game have only gone down from 1.30 to 1.22. He'll snap out of it.

The Turris situation looms large in my memory, too, but I think you're letting that and an overly myopic view of usage overshadow solid development curves up and down the lineup. It's simply way too early to tell with this year's crop, but last year set an encouraging precedent.

Keep in mind there's a lot more to developing a young player than what goes on during a game (only some of which we're privy to, anyway). I think Strome had been the main focus developmentally while he was with the team, so sending him back to Erie will make the other rookies a bigger priority.

It would be great if we could have someone step in and light the league on fire the way Marner has this year, but that's really not a fair measuring stick.

 

[_Del_]

If it was just Turris rising like a Phoenix from the ashes, it wouldn't be concerning. If it was just his comments about the NHL not being a development league or old quotes about "don't give me that, 'oh, I don't have my confidence'" in a vacuum, probably not a game breaker though seriously concerning for this rebuilding club.

Eriksson was in and out the lineup, and on the fourth line until Les Jackson intervened. Blossom the same season after the mandate. Coincidence? Probably not given the comments both parties made about confidence and the impact on development.
Mueller had 4 goals, 17 assists in 54 games bounced around the lineup under Tippett. Same season post-trade has 9 goals, 11 assists in 15 games for Colorado before having his brains scrambled. Unreal post-trade bounce? Possibly, but concerning given other incidents.
Passed on Tyler Johnson completely. So did Minnesota (Yeo? Too lazy to look up who it was at the time) who saw him up close, but it's another name for the pyre under Tippett. Not super worrying by itself.
Speaking of funereal pyres, chosing the corpse of Langkow over Turris, only to see Turris explode in Ottawa for more goals, one less point in 49 games than Langkow had in 73 games. Very concerning. Especially since Turris got immediate praise for his two-way play as well. Another eval and usage failure. Possibly the biggest along with Eriksson.
Dvorak is a better two-way player than Waltsson on the same team in London. In the NHL so far, Waltsson looks good getting solid minutes in Calgary. Dave Tippett rules Dvorak not good enough for NHL. Extremely questionable.

Ignoring the "in progress" players, that is still a pretty damning list of failures due to evaluation and/or usage, imo. Can you name another NHL coach who had that many misses on young talent? Lots of coaches have missed on one guy the caliber of Eriksson or Turris. How many missed on more than one under their immediate care? Honest question, because I can't think of one.

 

[tucknroll]

Turris was obviously botched, but I maintain that goes back to Gretzky (Boedker, too) to some extent or another. More recently, though, he's done a fine job with all of the young defensemen he's worked with, Domi is on pace to score about 60 points in his second season (more if his shooting percentage regresses to the mean a bit), and Martinook has greatly exceeded expectations. Duclair looked good last year, and while he's been extremely snakebitten this year (his shooting percentage dropped from an unsustainably high 19% last season to an unsustainably low 4.5% this season), sophomore slumps are hardly uncommon, and his shots per game have only gone down from 1.30 to 1.22. He'll snap out of it.

The Turris situation looms large in my memory, too, but I think you're letting that and an overly myopic view of usage overshadow solid development curves up and down the lineup. It's simply way too early to tell with this year's crop, but last year set an encouraging precedent.

Keep in mind there's a lot more to developing a young player than what goes on during a game (only some of which we're privy to, anyway). I think Strome had been the main focus developmentally while he was with the team, so sending him back to Erie will make the other rookies a bigger priority.

It would be great if we could have someone step in and light the league on fire the way Marner has this year, but that's really not a fair measuring stick.

Agreed, I think Tipp is taking way too much heat right now, he has not had a problem developing rookies for years now and people complain that he's scratching them. Playing 3+ rookies while having 3-4 sophomores is not what a team should want to do. I feel Dvorak being shipped back and forth was just because they could for roster benefits while they were just waiting out Strome's demotion. Lots of other things people have been going crazy because of, but if thought through it's usually understandable.

Personally not a fan of Duclair, always thought he was a Bi-product of Domi last year(who can play with anyone while Duclair struggles without Domi). Always looked at him as a little more skilled and better finishing version of Mason Raymond (straight line skater). He's been trying to do too much in the games i've been able to watch in my opinion. Still a player id like as a 2/3 line player.

It'll be better when the Coyotes get more actual talent in the forward core, from what i've seen its just 3 lines grinding out some goals while Domi has to carry the majority of the talent himself, Dvorak has been nice too though, Vbrata was a solid signing for the price, Hanzal needs to pick up his play or be traded before he loses value though
Sad year so far no doubt, but i doubt anyone thought they'd be fighting for a playoff birth either

 

[tucknroll]

If it was just Turris rising like a Phoenix from the ashes, it wouldn't be concerning. If it was just his comments about the NHL not being a development league or old quotes about "don't give me that, 'oh, I don't have my confidence'" in a vacuum, probably not a game breaker though seriously concerning for this rebuilding club.

Eriksson was in and out the lineup, and on the fourth line until Les Jackson intervened. Blossom the same season after the mandate. Coincidence? Probably not given the comments both parties made about confidence and the impact on development.
Mueller had 4 goals, 17 assists in 54 games bounced around the lineup under Tippett. Same season post-trade has 9 goals, 11 assists in 15 games for Colorado before having his brains scrambled. Unreal post-trade bounce? Possibly, but concerning given other incidents.
Passed on Tyler Johnson completely. So did Minnesota (Yeo? Too lazy to look up who it was at the time) who saw him up close, but it's another name for the pyre under Tippett. Not super worrying by itself.
Speaking of funereal pyres, chosing the corpse of Langkow over Turris, only to see Turris explode in Ottawa for more goals, one less point in 49 games than Langkow had in 73 games. Very concerning. Especially since Turris got immediate praise for his two-way play as well. Another eval and usage failure. Possibly the biggest along with Eriksson.
Dvorak is a better two-way player than Waltsson on the same team in London. In the NHL so far, Waltsson looks good getting solid minutes in Calgary. Dave Tippett rules Dvorak not good enough for NHL. Extremely questionable.

Ignoring the "in progress" players, that is still a pretty damning list of failures due to evaluation and/or usage, imo. Can you name another NHL coach who had that many misses on young talent? Lots of coaches have missed on one guy the caliber of Eriksson or Turris. How many missed on more than one under their immediate care? Honest question, because I can't think of one.

Happens all the times and players come back down to earth, Stempniak and Wolski are good examples

 

[PhoPhan]

If it was just Turris rising like a Phoenix from the ashes, it wouldn't be concerning. If it was just his comments about the NHL not being a development league or old quotes about "don't give me that, 'oh, I don't have my confidence'" in a vacuum, probably not a game breaker though seriously concerning for this rebuilding club.

Eriksson was in and out the lineup, and on the fourth line until Les Jackson intervened. Blossom the same season after the mandate. Coincidence? Probably not given the comments both parties made about confidence and the impact on development.
Mueller had 4 goals, 17 assists in 54 games bounced around the lineup under Tippett. Same season post-trade has 9 goals, 11 assists in 15 games for Colorado before having his brains scrambled. Unreal post-trade bounce? Possibly, but concerning given other incidents.
Passed on Tyler Johnson completely. So did Minnesota (Yeo? Too lazy to look up who it was at the time) who saw him up close, but it's another name for the pyre under Tippett. Not super worrying by itself.
Speaking of funereal pyres, chosing the corpse of Langkow over Turris, only to see Turris explode in Ottawa for more goals, one less point in 49 games than Langkow had in 73 games. Very concerning. Especially since Turris got immediate praise for his two-way play as well. Another eval and usage failure. Possibly the biggest along with Eriksson.
Dvorak is a better two-way player than Waltsson on the same team in London. In the NHL so far, Waltsson looks good getting solid minutes in Calgary. Dave Tippett rules Dvorak not good enough for NHL. Extremely questionable.

Ignoring the "in progress" players, that is still a pretty damning list of failures due to evaluation and/or usage, imo. Can you name another NHL coach who had that many misses on young talent? Lots of coaches have missed on one guy the caliber of Eriksson or Turris. How many missed on more than one under their immediate care? Honest question, because I can't think of one.

I'm not worried about his usage of Dvorak. I've been saying for a while that he's overrated on these boards and projects as a defensively responsible middle six guy capable of 50ish points in his prime. He put up great numbers in London but always had killer linemates. He'll be a very valuable player, but he's looked fine so far to me.

I'm more than willing to call Mueller's bump in Colorado a flash in the pan. As tucknroll pointed out, Stempniak had a pretty monstrous little streak when he got to Arizona. Are you willing to give the coach credit for that? I'm pretty sure both were just flukes.

Eriksson produced more when Tippett left, but don't ignore the fact that he's been one of the most defensively capable wings in the league for nearly his whole career. Hossa is the only guy I can think of offhand that I'd prefer defensively over that span. He's also been pretty productive offensively, so the idea that Tippett ruined him is plainly false.

I certainly don't think Tippett has a great record of development over his career, but two years ago was likely the very first time his goal was something besides winning as many games as possible, and last year was the very first time he had real prospects to develop in that environment. The truth is he's never really stuck with a given player long enough to prove positive or negative whether he can develop offensive talent. From what I've seen, though, he has adapted his approach to the new circumstances. I can't say the same for the people calling for his head based on past shortcomings.

 

[_Del_]

I've said that I see Dvorak's most likely career to be similar to Vermette's. I'm not saying he's a superstar in the making. I am saying that if you polled 100 scouts this summer about who was more NHL-ready, Dvorak or Waltsson, a heavy number would have taken Dvorak. Now we see Waltsson getting favourable usage and being successful, but Dvorak isn't good enough for Tippett to even make the team. How likely is that? How many teams would have sent him to the AHL?
Tippett didn't ruin Turris or Eriksson, but certainly they didn't score high enough on Tippalytics to play in the top six. Despite that, they were clearly ready because they were immediately successful when given the opportunity.
I'd rather not settle for "didn't ruin Duclair" when Duclair ends up somewhere else and is successful. Or any of our other high skill guys. There is clearly a "Tippett-player" mould, and if you don't fit in, good luck. That's concerning when we have bluechips like Duclair, Strome, and Keller in the fold.
I'm not sure what the big change has been. He still buries skill players. He still is feeding veterans like Doan enormous minutes despite their poor play. He still would rather force Martinook into a center slot than play Dvorak or Strome. What's changed? Our roster is thin enough that now he finally has to play Dvorak because of extenuating circumstances? Yay?

 

[XX]

The truth is he's never really stuck with a given player long enough to prove positive or negative whether he can develop offensive talent.

NHL coach in his 14th season doesn't have a track record of developing anyone? ... is that supposed to be comforting?

From what I've seen, though, he has adapted his approach to the new circumstances. I can't say the same for the people calling for his head based on past shortcomings.

You're seeing what you want to see as much as the haters are. He is constantly yanking young players around without merit while feeding prime minutes to veterans that haven't earned it.

 

[PhoPhan]

Like I said, there's a lot to development besides what you see during the game. We're in the dark when it comes to process for the most part, so I'm only going to worry about results. If Duclair gets traded and turns into a stud, fine, that's a loss. But that hasn't happened yet. What I've seen since Tippett began focusing on development is Max Domi blossoming into a legitimate top line player, Jordan Martinook exceeding my expectations (from a fourth line grinder to a middle six spark plug), and Anthony Duclair showing flashes of high end offense but looking raw overall at both ends of the ice. Duclair has been the most disappointing of the three, but minutes notwithstanding, he's still taking the risks that offensive players have to take to produce (and which I keep hearing Tippett's system should be choking out of him). He clearly has the green light to keep doing it, so I'm not seeing how Tippett is holding him back creatively.

Domi is up around 17:30 a game this year, and he's far from a defensive stud. There's a lot more to it than "offensive guys get buried," clearly.

I also think it's pretty weak to write off all of the young defenseman Tippett has brought along. OEL is in the conversation for top five in the league at his position, which is something you could not have even said about Teppo Numminen. He leads the league in goals per 60 minutes among defenseman over the last couple seasons. That sounds like offense to me. Yandle was the second highest scoring defenseman in the NHL in his last few seasons in Arizona. Murphy looks like a top four guy, and while I've been critical of Stone's defensive play, his offense is certainly top four worthy. DeAngelo and Chychrun both look like studs in their short stints so far. Overlooking all of this just because Kyle Turris didn't work out is extreme selection bias.

I think all I'm asking you to do is take the long view here.

 

[Plub]

I'm not worried about his usage of Dvorak. I've been saying for a while that he's overrated on these boards and projects as a defensively responsible middle six guy capable of 50ish points in his prime. He put up great numbers in London but always had killer linemates. He'll be a very valuable player, but he's looked fine so far to me.

You've been saying and you would be in a very tiny minority. He was seen as a top prospect by far more than just some Coyote fans on HF-boards.

You also seem to have missed the significant portion of time where he played without key linemates and actually played BETTER.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but some have tangible evidence to support them while others are more of a gut feeling.

 

[XX]

Like I said, there's a lot to development besides what you see during the game.

It's not Tippett vs null. It's Tippett vs literally any other coach in the league. A lot of coaches can be buddy-buddy and have 'good talks' with their players. Managing the squad off the ice is not a talent exclusive to Dave Tippett.

DeAngelo and Chychrun both look like studs in their short stints so far. Overlooking all of this just because Kyle Turris didn't work out is extreme selection bias.

You're going to give Tippett credit for Chychrun and DeAngelo? Who is the one with the selection bias? DeAngelo put in most of his formative work under a completely different organization and then Lamb. Chychrun has played extremely well because of his raw ability, yet he gets benched for his efforts.

Murphy and Stone have basically been in stasis the last few years as players. They haven't developed at all. Domi and Duclair don't look anything like what they did early last year in terms of offense, and that isn't a good thing. They're regressing.

Long view my ass. He has done nothing to earn that much leeway.

 

[lanky]

Turris and Boedker were failures on GMDM and TGO. They really don't belong in the Tippett conversation at all.

Domi and Martinook are a couple successes of the GMDM and Tippett era. There will be more successes to come under Tippett (Dvorak and Dauphin very soon), we just have to wait because Tippett takes a slow approach to giving kids responsibilty.

 

[kihekah19*]

Turris and Boedker were failures on GMDM and TGO. They really don't belong in the Tippett conversation at all.

Domi and Martinook are a couple successes of the GMDM and Tippett era. There will be more successes to come under Tippett (Dvorak and Dauphin very soon), we just have to wait because Tippett takes a slow approach to giving kids responsibilty.

While correct (imo), that's not a popular stance around here. Please note however that some of us appreciate the level headed, realistic and positive thinking.

 

[kihekah19*]

Like I said, there's a lot to development besides what you see during the game. We're in the dark when it comes to process for the most part, so I'm only going to worry about results. If Duclair gets traded and turns into a stud, fine, that's a loss. But that hasn't happened yet. What I've seen since Tippett began focusing on development is Max Domi blossoming into a legitimate top line player, Jordan Martinook exceeding my expectations (from a fourth line grinder to a middle six spark plug), and Anthony Duclair showing flashes of high end offense but looking raw overall at both ends of the ice. Duclair has been the most disappointing of the three, but minutes notwithstanding, he's still taking the risks that offensive players have to take to produce (and which I keep hearing Tippett's system should be choking out of him). He clearly has the green light to keep doing it, so I'm not seeing how Tippett is holding him back creatively.

Domi is up around 17:30 a game this year, and he's far from a defensive stud. There's a lot more to it than "offensive guys get buried," clearly.

I also think it's pretty weak to write off all of the young defenseman Tippett has brought along. OEL is in the conversation for top five in the league at his position, which is something you could not have even said about Teppo Numminen. He leads the league in goals per 60 minutes among defenseman over the last couple seasons. That sounds like offense to me. Yandle was the second highest scoring defenseman in the NHL in his last few seasons in Arizona. Murphy looks like a top four guy, and while I've been critical of Stone's defensive play, his offense is certainly top four worthy. DeAngelo and Chychrun both look like studs in their short stints so far. Overlooking all of this just because Kyle Turris didn't work out is extreme selection bias.

I think all I'm asking you to do is take the long view here.

Another realistic and positive viewpoint!

As a noteworthy point the "other organization" that had DeAngelo, let him go.

 

[WrinkledPossum]

Agreed, I think Tipp is taking way too much heat right now

Way too much. Every negative about the team, big or small is blamed on him. Every positive is either ignored, deemed to be luck, or is because of Chayka. Tipp has 5 rookies on the team. Lots more with only 3 or less years. Most of them are getting good minutes, but people choose to focus only the negative and say that Tippett doesn't believe in developing players because he scratched Strome and sent him down, or that a struggling player is getting limited minutes, an 18 year old is scratched because they think he needs to have a little break....

As a noteworthy point the "other organization" that had DeAngelo, let him go.

And I don't think once I've seen anyone give Tippett credit for that trade. But if we do make a bad trade we all know there will be multiple threads talking about how he is ruining this team..

 

[ClassLessCoyote]

Turris and Boedker were failures on GMDM and TGO. They really don't belong in the Tippett conversation at all.

Seeing that both were coached under Tippett, then yes, Tippett does deserve to be part of the conversation.

 

[kihekah19*]

Way too much. Every negative about the team, big or small is blamed on him. Every positive is either ignored, deemed to be luck, or is because of Chayka. Tipp has 5 rookies on the team. Lots more with only 3 or less years. Most of them are getting good minutes, but people choose to focus only the negative and say that Tippett doesn't believe in developing players because he scratched Strome and sent him down, or that a struggling player is getting limited minutes, an 18 year old is scratched because they think he needs to have a little break....



And I don't think once I've seen anyone give Tippett credit for that trade. But if we do make a bad trade we all know there will be multiple threads talking about how he is ruining this team..

Indeed, it's what I term the "Nascar mentality", in that folks love to focus on one aspect (driver in Nascar), as it's simplistic.

 

[ClassLessCoyote]

I can just see the comments from the Pro-Tippett crowd should Tippett get canned. "This a stupid move by ownership that they're going to regret because of Tippett did for us in 2012."

Anyways, Strome is back in the OHL. Let's see how he does from there.

 

[cobra427]

Way too much. Every negative about the team, big or small is blamed on him. Every positive is either ignored, deemed to be luck, or is because of Chayka. Tipp has 5 rookies on the team. Lots more with only 3 or less years. Most of them are getting good minutes, but people choose to focus only the negative and say that Tippett doesn't believe in developing players because he scratched Strome and sent him down, or that a struggling player is getting limited minutes, an 18 year old is scratched because they think he needs to have a little break....



And I don't think once I've seen anyone give Tippett credit for that trade. But if we do make a bad trade we all know there will be multiple threads talking about how he is ruining this team..

It's only a handful of posters that constantly bash Tip. He is playing way more young guys then I ever thought he would and gave Strome every opportunity to make the team. The young guys not developing is a myth. Reider/Crouse/Deangelo were all in other systems, came here and their development picked up. Does Tip get any credit for that? He should.

The only young player that has left here and played better was Turris. We all know he wanted out of AZ, so we can't blame Tip for his development and maybe we should credit him at least a little. Name another young player that left and did well with another club? Runblad/Gormley were eventually traded and low and behold, they were both busts Bods left and he is not playing well elsewhere either, played better here. Tip was getting raked over the coals by the same few posters when Gormley/Runblad were here.

Tip not developing young players is BS if you stand back and look at the facts.

 

[lanky]

Other teams can do a good job developing young talent with less time. Tip takes it slower, which seems to frustrate a lot of fans. I don't blame them for those frustrations, especially considering we're still a losing team and some of those fans pay big money for seasons.

I appreciate the slow approach but I also don't want to defend some of the weird decisions Tip makes.

 

[_Del_]

The only young player that has left here and played better was Turris. We all know he wanted out of AZ, so we can't blame Tip for his development and maybe we should credit him at least a little

Even granting the first sentence, and I don't, you'd still have to explain why Tippett is getting credit for Turris when he is the one creating the conditions that made Turris "want out".

If an employee wants to quit precisely because of their boss, it seems strange to say, "That guy went on and became great with an opportunity, but he wanted to leave here anyway, so the boss should still get some credit for his success".

 

[_Del_]

which seems to frustrate a lot of fans

And players...

 

[kihekah19*]

Other teams can do a good job developing young talent with less time. Tip takes it slower, which seems to frustrate a lot of fans. I don't blame them for those frustrations, especially considering we're still a losing team and some of those fans pay big money for seasons.

I appreciate the slow approach but I also don't want to defend some of the weird decisions Tip makes.

9.9 times out of ten it's the ones who aren't paying a dime to watch the team that **** and moan the most.

There doesn't seem to be many (if any) that defend all DT does. I think some are more apt to however, in response to the prevailing burn him at the stake mentality.

 

[tucknroll]

Strome's first period tonight has been better than last games, moving his feet more for sure, still needs to bring some more speed but it's nice to see the change, had a nice but fairly easy pass for his assist (his passing in general is no doubt looking better so far tonight than on thursday). Still winning faceoffs too and he looks more focused
A couple bad plays, one being a pass and the other being a turnover leaving the defensive zone but nothing serious since both d were in position to stop the North bay player. Still isn't battling much either.
He also wiffed on an easy goal so should have 2 points right now
Raddysh and Debrincat are great linemates though, Debrincat brings great speed and offence while Raddysh does so many little things right at all areas on the ice.
Best chances so far have come from them which isn't want i'm wanting to see, but still just Strome's 4th period in the O and so far getting better


Cam Dineen has been playing very responsible, which i credit to Stan Butler style hockey. I know Cam wanted to improve defensively but it seems to be preventing him from taking risks that you want and offensive D to take. Having a good game, but not in the way i'd be hoping from him.