Stop focusing on the Negatives

[LickTheEnvelope]

we were focused on the negatives when we were winning president trophies and going to cup finals.

what do you expect?

It was a bad 4th line.

 

[me2]

ORANIZATIONAL NEEDS:
- #1RW Sniper (Necessary to be top tier - at least on the same level as Virtanen)
- #1D (Franchise level)

5. So why are we all butthurt?
1) We didn't get the 10th OA.
2) We didn't get Reinhart.
3) We didn't get TT, Etem, DSP, Lindholm, or Mantha.

Our organizational needs are all there except a 1st line RW and a Franchise D. I think Benning is doing a fine job.

Organization needs

1W 1C 1D 2D/offensive D.

 

[RandV]

And yet still many have come to acceptance that we're in a rebuild and that it'll take time to get a new identity and core from these and future prospects. I think this is the most healthy outcome. We accepted that Benning and Linden were decent hires. We know have to accept that they have a vision and plan to rebuild, and that yes it may occur in fits and starts and setbacks, but that they're building towards something that can entertain and reach success on ice.

Actually we don't know exactly what this vision is yet, as we still need to see what Benning does in free agency. You say we're rebuilding, but Benning could have marching orders to push for an immediate turnaround to get back into the playoffs next season. The current motto is 'change is coming', but the key goal here is targetting season ticket holders for renewal. And this group doesn't have the stomach to rebuild through more losing.

I'm still withholding judgement until the next few days are over, but if we go out and give big contracts to guys like Miller and Bolland that's going to induce a Picard facepalm and lower my opinion of new management to Dave Nonis levels.

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

Organization needs

1W 1C 1D 2D/offensive D.

Org needs:

1. Top line
2. Second line
3. #1 D
4. Powerplay specialist (D)
5. PK Center (unless we think that's Horvat right now)
6. Crease clearing d-man

Some think they need another goalie too, but I don't think that's necessary.

 

[RandV]

Thats not how things work. Anaheim would look at us and just watch us squirm. The offer would get worse as we get more desperate to move him. Offers dont get better as time goes on. Everyone knew we wanted to move him and all they had to do was wait til we were desperate.

I don't know if it would have worked out or not, but the point he's getting after with holding out Kesler is to make him squirm so he'll expand his list, not wait out Anaheim. So it kind of depends on exactly how he was wielding his NTC. If he said only Anaheim or Chicago, and no to interested teams like Columbus, Rangers, St.Louis, etc, then it could work. If his list was always at 6 teams though and only ANA/CHI were really interested, then not much difference.

Still though it's hardly the same as the Luongo situation. The **** storm there was in the media, the players on ice still performed well. Rather than just being a dick you kind of felt sorry for Luongo since he wanted to play closer to his wife & daughter in Florida, and also you wanted to make room for Corey Schneider to become the full fledged starter. On top of that, rather than dealing a highly valued player with just a NTC, you're talking about a veteran starting goalie here which automatically eliminates the majority of teams secure there, and one with a career long contract and a dreaded cap recapture penalty. Made it far more limiting to trade him.

 

[SillyRabbit]

Why do we have to "look at the bright side?"

If our GM was good, we would see the bright side right in-front of our faces because we would have won the trade and acquired better or equal assets to what we gave up.

The fact is, the Vancouver Canucks have not won a trade since 2011, when we acquired Christian Ehrhoff.

Don't believe me? Look it up.

You can post a poll in the polls section asking the HF community about any individual trade that the Canucks have made since 2011, and we will not have "won" any single one of them. (Although we have probably made out even on a few).

It's too early to judge Benning, but to be honest we should've gotten one of Etem, DSP, or the 10th overall, there's just no excuse.

And drafting Virtanen at 6 was a huge reach. The Maple Leafs and Jets are going to be laughing at us for years to come for gifting them 1st line offensive superstars while we're stuck with a 2nd line tweener.

I applaud you all for focusing on the positive, but as a tortured Canuck fan for over a decade, I just can't get excited over mediocrity anymore. I'll be excited when there's something to be excited about.

 

[NoRaise4Brackett]

The part that gets me, is how little thought is actually put into being negative...

"we picked Virtanen just because of where he was born."

or my personal favorite:

"McCann is redundant. He is exactly the same as Horvat and Gaunce."

 

[MrShift4]

The fact is, the Vancouver Canucks have not won a trade since 2011, when we acquired Christian Ehrhoff.

While not a huge move we easily won the Higgins trade.





On topic
I am quite happy with the changes. Last season is one I want to forget in a hurry. Change is needed. Change is happening.
We get rid of a guy that doesn't want to be here and hasn't worked well with teammates for three years.
We get rid of another guy that has underperformed and is not worth his contract value.
And we are getting younger.

It is a fresh start imo.
A fresh start is something I will happily accept after last season.

 

[Canucks5551]

While not a huge move we easily won the Higgins trade.





On topic
I am quite happy with the changes. Last season is one I want to forget in a hurry. Change is needed. Change is happening.
We get rid of a guy that doesn't want to be here and hasn't worked well with teammates for three years.
We get rid of another guy that has underperformed and is not worth his contract value.
And we are getting younger.

It is a fresh start imo.
A fresh start is something I will happily accept after last season.

The Higgins trade was 2011.

 

[Shareefruck]

The part that gets me, is how little thought is actually put into being negative...

"we picked Virtanen just because of where he was born."

or my personal favorite:

"McCann is redundant. He is exactly the same as Horvat and Gaunce."

I'm happy with the pick (because it was a steal even if we could have done better), but how is the latter not a valid concern? He does project to be a player with similar upside/role to Horvat/Gaunce/Cassels, there were comparable/better guys on the board still, and we have several other organization needs that were left unaddressed.

 

[MrShift4]

The Higgins trade was 2011.

Yes, but after the Ehrhoff trade


Edit: and that trade was in 2009 anyway

 

[Hollywood Burrows]

The part that gets me, is how little thought is actually put into being negative...

"we picked Virtanen just because of where he was born."

or my personal favorite:

"McCann is redundant. He is exactly the same as Horvat and Gaunce."

You have obviously not been reading this forum closely, you've missed many many detailed posts from the intelligent posters on this forum. Guys like Tiranis and MS have done a great job pointing out what an utterly disastrous weekend this has been for the Canucks.

 

[Canucks5551]

Yes, but after the Ehrhoff trade

The Ehrhoff trade was in 2009, so I'm not sure what the other poster was referring to, then.

 

[Sharpshooter]

Actually we don't know exactly what this vision is yet, as we still need to see what Benning does in free agency. You say we're rebuilding, but Benning could have marching orders to push for an immediate turnaround to get back into the playoffs next season. The current motto is 'change is coming', but the key goal here is targetting season ticket holders for renewal. And this group doesn't have the stomach to rebuild through more losing.

I'm still withholding judgement until the next few days are over, but if we go out and give big contracts to guys like Miller and Bolland that's going to induce a Picard facepalm and lower my opinion of new management to Dave Nonis levels.

You're right, I don't know what the vision is yet per se. It could be a re-tool or a rebuild. There's no way for me to say it's one or the other with any certainty. My point was that we can say with certainty that the brass does have a plan in place, or a vision of the makeup of the team, either next season or in the years ahead, and that surely they have decided to go with that plan...whether it's theirs or handed down to them by ownership. The point is that the team is heading towards something, and if we know that they are, though we may not know exactly which direction, then at least we ought to see the direction first before getting so down about the first steps in whatever this is. That's all.

Why do we have to "look at the bright side?"

If our GM was good, we would see the bright side right in-front of our faces because we would have won the trade and acquired better or equal assets to what we gave up.

The fact is, the Vancouver Canucks have not won a trade since 2011, when we acquired Christian Ehrhoff.

Don't believe me? Look it up.

You can post a poll in the polls section asking the HF community about any individual trade that the Canucks have made since 2011, and we will not have "won" any single one of them. (Although we have probably made out even on a few).

It's too early to judge Benning, but to be honest we should've gotten one of Etem, DSP, or the 10th overall, there's just no excuse.

And drafting Virtanen at 6 was a huge reach. The Maple Leafs and Jets are going to be laughing at us for years to come for gifting them 1st line offensive superstars while we're stuck with a 2nd line tweener.

I applaud you all for focusing on the positive, but as a tortured Canuck fan for over a decade, I just can't get excited over mediocrity anymore. I'll be excited when there's something to be excited about.

Come talk to those of us who went through the rebuild after '81 season, or the years between ;96-'99, or the seemingly endless years of making the playoffs only to get spanked in the 1st round, year after year, in between, if you want to know what actual torture feels like.

"Over a decade"...that's cute.

I applaud you sir, for sticking it out with this team for over a decade, during a cup run, two president trophies, multiple division titles and the emergence/presence of several stars on the team. You sir have been through much indeed.

 

[IComeInPeace]

i know that when i want hockey analysis, i go to "USA Today"

You didn't like USA Today...

Something tells me it would not matter a single iota if I replaced USA Today with the Toronto Sun.

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/06/28/report-card-on-canadian-teams-nhl-drafting

 

[IComeInPeace]

You're right, I don't know what the vision is yet per se. It could be a re-tool or a rebuild. There's no way for me to say it's one or the other with any certainty. My point was that we can say with certainty that the brass does have a plan in place, or a vision of the makeup of the team, either next season or in the years ahead, and that surely they have decided to go with that plan...whether it's theirs or handed down to them by ownership. The point is that the team is heading towards something, and if we know that they are, though we may not know exactly which direction, then at least we ought to see the direction first before getting so down about the first steps in whatever this is. That's all.





Come talk to those of us who went through the rebuild after '81 season, or the years between ;96-'99, or the seemingly endless years of making the playoffs only to get spanked in the 1st round, year after year, in between, if you want to know what actual torture feels like.

"Over a decade"...that's cute.

I applaud you sir, for sticking it out with this team for over a decade, during a cup run, two president trophies, multiple division titles and the emergence/presence of several stars on the team. You sir have been through much indeed.

Well said.

1977.
My team was/is my team, for better or worse.

The last 10 years might be the best 10 year period this franchise has ever seen.

You're ready to give up on your team bc you don't like who we drafted? Or the trades we made?
How about letting the players get on the ice and show you what they do, or dont have before you jump off the wagon.

I live in LA, watch Kings and Ducks games regularly. I'm nowhere near familiar enough with either Vey or Bonino to make any kind of snap judgements.

Every year since I've been on HFBoards coinciding with Gillis as GM, Canuck fans have been in love with Gillis' picks, at how progressive his thinking was/is...


Maybe consider it's better we stuck to simple meat and potatoes. It's not sexy, but sexy got us in this position, where the cupboard is bare, and we are forced to trade assets to get some actual young players in the system.

 

[MS]

I applaud you all for focusing on the positive, but as a tortured Canuck fan for over a decade, I just can't get excited over mediocrity anymore. I'll be excited when there's something to be excited about.

Seriously?

In the past 12 years (since Christmas 2001), Canuck fans have been treated to almost nothing but excellence, and have been one of the 5 best teams in the NHL over that stretch. 8 or 9 division titles in that stretch, two President's Trophy teams, and came 1 game away from the Cup.

Some fans are really, really, really spoiled.

 

[RandV]

Why do we have to "look at the bright side?"

If our GM was good, we would see the bright side right in-front of our faces because we would have won the trade and acquired better or equal assets to what we gave up.

The fact is, the Vancouver Canucks have not won a trade since 2011, when we acquired Christian Ehrhoff.

Don't believe me? Look it up.

You can post a poll in the polls section asking the HF community about any individual trade that the Canucks have made since 2011, and we will not have "won" any single one of them. (Although we have probably made out even on a few).

Here's some more faulty fan mentality 101, judging trades based on who 'won'. It's a fun past time, large majority of fans love trades and will quickly jump on them to decide who won or lost, before a game is even played.


Trades are all about circumstance & timing though, to actually 'win' a trade you have to be the recipient of good fortune, usually through perfect timing, unexpected hindsight, or a rare boneheaded GM move. You list the Ehrhoff as the last trade the Canucks one, but under Gillis that was the only trade we 'won'. And we won ti because of timing, San Jose needed to clear salary quickly before the start of the season and we had the space. It was a necessary move for them, not a bad one.

Yet despite that he still built/managed our most successful team ever, one that was at the top of the league for two years. If you look at our trade wins they are few and far between (this should be perfectly normal for teams), with even our worst GM's cashing in.

Pat Quinn - Stojanov for Naslund - hindsight win
Mike Keenan - Linden for McCabe, Bertuzzi, 3rd (J.Ruutu) - Mike Milbury win
Dave Nonis - Bertuzzi, Allen Auld for Luongo, Krajicek - timing win
Gillis - Rahimi, White(2nd) for Ehrhoff, Lukowich - timing win

In my opinion if you're trying to rate a GM it's better to focus on... let's say not needlessly wasting value. In this regard Nonis and Gillis were night and day, as Nonis would throw picks away at deadlines while Gillis acquired guys that actually stuck around. Every season each team gets value added to the roster through the draft, and a few days later the chance to add or lose more value in free agency. Personally if a GM does well in these two area's and have a clear goal with their trades I don't mind if they bleed a little in trades.

Also I'm kind of biased and ranting because that's my own style as a hobbyist gm, in the hardcore sim leagues I've been playing in for 14 years. Accumulate value where it's given, then make generous offers targetting specific needs or favourite players. Other guys who are constantly trying to 'win' trades just piss me off, and are basically my nemesis'

 

[RandV]

You're right, I don't know what the vision is yet per se. It could be a re-tool or a rebuild. There's no way for me to say it's one or the other with any certainty. My point was that we can say with certainty that the brass does have a plan in place, or a vision of the makeup of the team, either next season or in the years ahead, and that surely they have decided to go with that plan...whether it's theirs or handed down to them by ownership. The point is that the team is heading towards something, and if we know that they are, though we may not know exactly which direction, then at least we ought to see the direction first before getting so down about the first steps in whatever this is. That's all.

To me personally Benning is a blank slate right now, but Aquilini is the enemy. We have no concrete evidence but it just feels to much like his meddling messed with Gillis' vision and pushed us over the edge to where we are now, so really all I want to see is our new guy calling the shots without any interference/pressure from the owner.

That's why while we still had Gillis I was confident we could stay competitive and retool without needing to 'tank', with Benning I'll be very impressed if we go the latter now because it would indicate he does actually have free reign. Isn't exactly what I wanted, but I like how the team is now with maybe a veteran winger like Iginla/Cammalleri/Moulson to help the kids. If he spends like a drunken sailor, I can't help but think ownership is involved and we're in for a Burke in Toronto like 'rebuild'.

You also have to watch for spending in areas that devalue our existing assets, like signing Miller when we're trying to groom Lack or Bolland when we have a plethora of 2-way centers in the pipeline.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

You got to love that the thread about being positive has descended into which generation of Canuck fan has seen the worst team. Here's an answer, all of us. Every decade has seen rock bottom, last years team was putrid by every measurable standard.

But look on the bright side, we're steaming towards 2020 and the next generation to feel that inevitable Canuck disappointment.

 

[GranvilleIsland]

Right now we have five centers who should be NHLers in some capacity. People keep raging on the McCann pick because he's a two-way player and we have centers that are similar in that role. What people aren't realizing is that you win with two-way players you don't win with players who treat their own end like a fire drill.

If we had 23 Keslers on the ice we'd win every single night. It's not like these guys are defensive specialists they're skilled forwards as well. Kesler was projected to be nothing more then a 3rd line center. Let these kids develop into what they will become before slapping labels on them. But right now I love how our team is built for the future.


Kassian
Vey
Jensen
Horvat
McCann
Shinkaruk
Gaunce
Cassels
Grenier


I really like our group going forward and we'll only be adding to this in future drafts.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Right now we have five centers who should be NHLers in some capacity. People keep raging on the McCann pick because he's a two-way player and we have centers that are similar in that role. What people aren't realizing is that you win with two-way players you don't win with players who treat their own end like a fire drill.

If we had 23 Keslers on the ice we'd win every single night. It's not like these guys are defensive specialists they're skilled forwards as well. Kesler was projected to be nothing more then a 3rd line center. Let these kids develop into what they will become before slapping labels on them. But right now I love how our team is built for the future.


Kassian
Vey
Jensen
Horvat
McCann
Shinkaruk
Gaunce
Cassels
Grenier


I really like our group going forward and we'll only be adding to this in future drafts.

Kesler sucked in the playoffs, so if we had 23 Keslers we wouldn't win every night.

You win with elite talent down the middle, an elite defenseman, and an elite goalie. We don't have any of that. Horvat projects as an elite 3C or a good 2C. McCann will likely be a 3rd liner. Gaunce is a 3rd liner. We have way too many prospects who project as 3rd liners. That's great, we can have a very nice 3rd line, but nobody will be able to score from our first or second lines.

I was excited for the draft because of the potential for the Canucks to build a future for themselves. We had the opportunity to trade up to bring in a future franchise C. We didn't do that (and in fact people were more in favour of keeping our mediocre 3rd line talent than packaging some to move up for an elite talent...go figure). We didn't get anything of value for our most valuable trade chip. We gave away a pick in the second round (which turned out to be a very good defense prospect) to an AHLer essentially turning the Garrison trade into nothing. We wasted our second first round pick on a guy who we have way too many players of his type. This is a team that will suck in the present and has nothing in the future to get anyone excited. We have essentially become the Calgary Flames.

 

[huntison]

Right now we have five centers who should be NHLers in some capacity. People keep raging on the McCann pick because he's a two-way player and we have centers that are similar in that role. What people aren't realizing is that you win with two-way players you don't win with players who treat their own end like a fire drill.

If we had 23 Keslers on the ice we'd win every single night. It's not like these guys are defensive specialists they're skilled forwards as well. Kesler was projected to be nothing more then a 3rd line center. Let these kids develop into what they will become before slapping labels on them. But right now I love how our team is built for the future.


Kassian
Vey
Jensen
Horvat
McCann
Shinkaruk
Gaunce
Cassels
Grenier


I really like our group going forward and we'll only be adding to this in future drafts.

What about Virtanen?

 

[Rex Banner]

What about Virtanen?

Who?

 

[GranvilleIsland]

Kesler sucked in the playoffs, so if we had 23 Keslers we wouldn't win every night.

You win with elite talent down the middle, an elite defenseman, and an elite goalie. We don't have any of that. Horvat projects as an elite 3C or a good 2C. McCann will likely be a 3rd liner. Gaunce is a 3rd liner. We have way too many prospects who project as 3rd liners. That's great, we can have a very nice 3rd line, but nobody will be able to score from our first or second lines.

I was excited for the draft because of the potential for the Canucks to build a future for themselves. We had the opportunity to trade up to bring in a future franchise C. We didn't do that (and in fact people were more in favour of keeping our mediocre 3rd line talent than packaging some to move up for an elite talent...go figure). We didn't get anything of value for our most valuable trade chip. We gave away a pick in the second round (which turned out to be a very good defense prospect) to an AHLer essentially turning the Garrison trade into nothing. We wasted our second first round pick on a guy who we have way too many players of his type. This is a team that will suck in the present and has nothing in the future to get anyone excited. We have essentially become the Calgary Flames.

TL;DR

Linden Vey has a lot of upside
LA is a gritty two-way team. You don't need Malkin and Crosby to win a cup. You need a team that plays to win not for individual statistics as most flashy players do.
Anyone would take Kopitar over Ovechkin if they want to win.
We may not a have a number 1 defenseman but we have a good foundation thus far and we can't judge it yet.
People want a rebuild then complain because we're not building a team that they wanted.
HF is turning into CDC.

Garrison an overrated defenseman who was quite honestly terrible last season. Guys got a great shot but when you miss the net as much as he does it because irrelevant. We were quite honestly lucky to get a 2nd for that contract considering the term and play he's shown thus far. Luca Sbisa is just as useful as him at a much lesser salary in my opinion. We moved Jason for a guy who has top 6 upside and is only 22 in Linden Vey.

We now have two centers who are under 27 in Bonino and Vey who may not become first line centers but easily have the potential to be 2nd if not 3rd line centers going forward. Kassian and Jensen are ready to step into bigger roles. Shinkaruk and Horvat might get a shot. Are forward corps went from stale and aging to developing with a ton of potential. I really like the way our depth stacks up behind the Sedins before we sign any UFAs.