Post-Game Talk: Stolen

[14ari13]

It doesn't matter if posters overvalue players, we've still wanted him to try to turn the surplus of forwards we have had into another piece we don't. Poile actually did that. Not sure what you're arguing about.

Which players do you have in mind? I think it is Tatar and Nyquist. But I think the GMs are a bit more conservative than the fans. They want to see a player doing good at least 3-4 seasons before they are sure if the player is for real.
I doubt we could land anything real good for either player without sending good prospects and high draft picks the other way.

I never said anything about core. Just that, while I prefer high picks, there are technically other ways to significantly improve the team.

I will remind you that NYR tried this very hard in the 90s. They bought any FA they could, but they never passed round 2.
Shanahan and Hasek were the biggest names we have traded for, yet I am not sure they are considered the core ( I consider both the core)

 

[Wood Stick]

You do not build the core though trades or FAs.
All our core players were the players we drafted.
Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom, Datsyuk, Z, konstatinov, osgood, Franzen.
Did I forget anyone?



You mean PP points not playoff points, right?

Dallas brought in a core piece in Tyler Seguin via trade. Their core right now is Benn-Seguin-Spezza-Klingberg, two of the four brought in via trade. Minnesota's core for the most part were brought in via signing/trade, and they're fairly legit. Your core is generally 2-3 players or so, and a lot of them are indeed brought in via trade/signing.

Anaheim - Kesler is a core piece right now I suppose but more high end complimentary
Arizona - All system
Boston - Rask was a trade but developed there
Buffalo - Ryan O'Reilly via trade
Calgary - All system
Carolina - All system
Colorado - All system, Johnson a high end complimentary piece IMO
Columbus - Aquired Sergei Bobrovsky and Seth Jones
Dallas - Tyler Seguin via trade, Spezza might be a high end complimentary piece
Detroit - High end complimentary pieces Nielsen/Green
Edmonton - All system IMO. Larsson is not a core piece
Florida - All system, brought in big complientary pieces
Los Angeles - Jeff Carter via trade
Minnesota - Zach Parise/Ryan Suter via signings, Dubynk via trade
Montreal - Shea Weber via trade, to be fair, had Subban who is similar
Nashville - Same as above with Johansen/Subban in their roles trading the same, Forsberg via trade though
New Jersey - Taylor Hall via trade, Corey Schneider via trade (great trades)
Islanders - All system, core kind of sucks (Tavares/Strome/Hamonic?) Was Frans too
Rangers - Eh, McDonagh but a big part of development was NYR, Rick Nash was, along with top complimentary pieces via FA (Hayes/Vesey)
Ottawa - Kyle Turris via trade,
Philadelphia - Jakub Voracek via trade, Wayne Simmonds via trade, highend compliemntary pieces in Couturier/Schenn (traded 2 core pieces)
Pittsburgh - Depends on your view on Kessel, that via trade
St. Louis - Shattenkirk via trade, Steen via trade
San Jose - Burns via trade, Thornton via trade,
Tampa Bay - All developed actually.
Toronto - All developed
Washington - All developed
Winnipeg - Aquired Wheeler/Buff/

You can sign/aquire core pieces. That is very difficult. A lot of the time you're trading potential or for sure core pieces. It's not easy to do so. Some massive trades where spare pieces got you a core piece for now and moving forward are Dallas with Seguin, San Jose with both trades for Burns and Thornton, spare parts Winnipeg did for their guys, and that Turris deal is a steal, though weak core besides Karlsson. Signing some players is super, super hard. Mike Green might actually be Detroit's most valuable player.

Chicago managed to sign a core piece in Marian Hossa though his decline is happening and he's a complimentary piece. Nashville traded two for two but managed to aquire Forsberg for like nothing. Looking at each team, some have a core of like 2 players, others like 5. It's interesting. Winnipeg has Laine/Ehlers/Wheeler/Buff/Schiefele top side pieces in Little/Trouba, with Trouba going either way I suppose. They're going to be ****ing dominant soon.

 

[Wood Stick]

Which players do you have in mind? I think it is Tatar and Nyquist. But I think the GMs are a bit more conservative than the fans. They want to see a player doing good at least 3-4 seasons before they are sure if the player is for real.
I doubt we could land anything real good for either player without sending good prospects and high draft picks the other way.

I will remind you that NYR tried this very hard in the 90s. They bought any FA they could, but they never passed round 2.
Shanahan and Hasek were the biggest names we have traded for, yet I am not sure they are considered the core ( I consider both the core)

Brendan Shanahan was definitely a core piece for many years. Wouldn't say the same about Hasek to be honest. Best days were behind him, still great his 02' run.

 

[14ari13]

Dallas brought in a core piece in Tyler Seguin via trade. Their core right now is Benn-Seguin-Spezza-Klingberg, two of the four brought in via trade. Minnesota's core for the most part were brought in via signing/trade, and they're fairly legit. Your core is generally 2-3 players or so, and a lot of them are indeed brought in via trade/signing.

Anaheim - Kesler is a core piece right now I suppose but more high end complimentary
Arizona - All system
Boston - Rask was a trade but developed there
Buffalo - Ryan O'Reilly via trade
Calgary - All system
Carolina - All system
Colorado - All system, Johnson a high end complimentary piece IMO
Columbus - Aquired Sergei Bobrovsky and Seth Jones
Dallas - Tyler Seguin via trade, Spezza might be a high end complimentary piece
Detroit - High end complimentary pieces Nielsen/Green
Edmonton - All system IMO. Larsson is not a core piece
Florida - All system, brought in big complientary pieces
Los Angeles - Jeff Carter via trade
Minnesota - Zach Parise/Ryan Suter via signings, Dubynk via trade
Montreal - Shea Weber via trade, to be fair, had Subban who is similar
Nashville - Same as above with Johansen/Subban in their roles trading the same, Forsberg via trade though
New Jersey - Taylor Hall via trade, Corey Schneider via trade (great trades)
Islanders - All system, core kind of sucks (Tavares/Strome/Hamonic?) Was Frans too
Rangers - Eh, McDonagh but a big part of development was NYR, Rick Nash was, along with top complimentary pieces via FA (Hayes/Vesey)
Ottawa - Kyle Turris via trade,
Philadelphia - Jakub Voracek via trade, Wayne Simmonds via trade, highend compliemntary pieces in Couturier/Schenn (traded 2 core pieces)
Pittsburgh - Depends on your view on Kessel, that via trade
St. Louis - Shattenkirk via trade, Steen via trade
San Jose - Burns via trade, Thornton via trade,
Tampa Bay - All developed actually.
Toronto - All developed
Washington - All developed
Winnipeg - Aquired Wheeler/Buff/

You can sign/aquire core pieces. That is very difficult. A lot of the time you're trading potential or for sure core pieces. It's not easy to do so. Some massive trades where spare pieces got you a core piece for now and moving forward are Dallas with Seguin, San Jose with both trades for Burns and Thornton, spare parts Winnipeg did for their guys, and that Turris deal is a steal, though weak core besides Karlsson. Signing some players is super, super hard. Mike Green might actually be Detroit's most valuable player.

Chicago managed to sign a core piece in Marian Hossa though his decline is happening and he's a complimentary piece. Nashville traded two for two but managed to aquire Forsberg for like nothing. Looking at each team, some have a core of like 2 players, others like 5. It's interesting. Winnipeg has Laine/Ehlers/Wheeler/Buff/Schiefele top side pieces in Little/Trouba, with Trouba going either way I suppose. They're going to be ****ing dominant soon.

And the cup winners?

Brendan Shanahan was definitely a core piece for many years. Wouldn't say the same about Hasek to be honest. Best days were behind him, still great his 02' run.

I consider them both, but being very conservative you don't count either of them.
Hasek played only 2/3 seasons. Shanahan was never on the same level as Yzerman, lidstrom or Fedorov. Though again I consider shanny as good as the others .

 

[RedWingsfan55]

I would think that you were being sarcastic, but this last political cycle has led me not to assume anymore.

Some people like to WIN, others not so much...

 

[RedWingsfan55]

And the cup winners?


I consider them both, but being very conservative you don't count either of them.
Hasek played only 2/3 seasons. Shanahan was never on the same level as Yzerman, lidstrom or Fedorov. Though again I consider shanny as good as the others .

And shanahan is better than everyone currently in the team. Just shows how good the wings used to be.

 

[chances14]

And the cup winners?


I consider them both, but being very conservative you don't count either of them.
Hasek played only 2/3 seasons. Shanahan was never on the same level as Yzerman, lidstrom or Fedorov. Though again I consider shanny as good as the others .

shanahan was certainly a core player for the wings conservative or not. led the wings in goals and points the year he was traded to detroit

 

[Wood Stick]

And the cup winners?


I consider them both, but being very conservative you don't count either of them.
Hasek played only 2/3 seasons. Shanahan was never on the same level as Yzerman, lidstrom or Fedorov. Though again I consider shanny as good as the others .

Chicago signed Marian Hossa who was their best defensive forward for many years there. Hossa was awesome during their cup runs. No idea where Toews gets this legacy as being a goat in the playoffs when in 12/13 he wasn't even a top three forward or so. That was a core signing.

Pittsburgh aquired the Leaf's best player and just won the Cup. Phil Kessel was the best forward in the 2016 NHL playoffs. He's a point per game player this season. Dude, Los Angeles just won 2 Stanley Cups. Their second best forward has always been Jeff Carter since his arrival. Jeff Carter was a PPG player during their last cup win, and he's got 15 points more than the second leading scorer this year.

Recent cup winners.

Chicago - Marian Hossa, UFA
Pittsburgh - Phil Kessel, TRADE
Los Angeles - Jeff Carter, TRADE

Hell, take a look at the last Cup winner besides those three teams. It was Boston. They signed Zdeno Chara in free agency who went on to win a Norris and a Stanley Cup as captain. Nathan Horton was a ****ing freak in their Stanley Cup victory run.

You absolutely can find a core piece via trade/signing. It's hard as **** though. Especially when you make a trade without sending another core piece back, or a player that has the potential to be a core piece moving forward.

Detroit's core is Larkin/Zetterberg/Mrazek/Mantha IMO. That's a pretty meh core. Top complimentary pieces now and forward-ish include Mike Green and Frans Nielsen. Z is there based on what he's done/role/etc, while the others with potential. Detroit's best player is Mike Green right now - a free agent signing.

 

[chances14]

Chicago signed Marian Hossa who was their best defensive forward for many years there. Hossa was awesome during their cup runs. No idea where Toews gets this legacy as being a goat in the playoffs when in 12/13 he wasn't even a top three forward or so. That was a core signing.

towes might be the most overrated player of this generation. that's not a knock on him because he is a great player, but the amount of media hype he gets (especially in canada) is ridiculous

 

[Claypool]

Holland basically takes no risks whatsoever and has spent most of his career relying on Nick Lidstrom and other Hall of Famers.

Would have loved to see your reaction if he traded Datsyuk for Gomez back in 2007.

 

[PuckDynasty]

The anti-tankers keep saying there's more than one way to skin a cat, but the organization refuses to give to get.

I'd prefer 3-4 years of top-3 picks, but I could at least see the possibility of doing something like Tatar + AA for Fowler (when Tatar had value last summer), then Larkin for an extended Shattenkirk. You quickly have a much better defense, and you use a couple high picks from an offensively depleted team to draft replacement towards.

But they're stubbornly refusing either path, and the Frans Nielsen's of the world are nice, but aren't ever leading them back to a championship.

The problem is, even if you suck, you might not always get a top 3 pick. There isn't always a generational talent in every draft. The past couple of years have jaded many into thinking that there are 3 or 4 guys like that in every draft. Unless the Wings change their scouting, it won't much matter.

 

[Winger98]

Which players do you have in mind? I think it is Tatar and Nyquist. But I think the GMs are a bit more conservative than the fans. They want to see a player doing good at least 3-4 seasons before they are sure if the player is for real.
I doubt we could land anything real good for either player without sending good prospects and high draft picks the other way.

I'm not sure there's a player I wouldn't include. Right now Mantha looks like our best bet but he's a wing and while he looks good he doesn't look like top3 in the league good.

I'm not opposed to packaging picks/prospects with them, either, for the right player. Really, Holland missed the boat on selling high on some of these guys a couple of years ago before their wheels fell off under Blashill.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

The problem is, even if you suck, you might not always get a top 3 pick. There isn't always a generational talent in every draft. The past couple of years have jaded many into thinking that there are 3 or 4 guys like that in every draft. Unless the Wings change their scouting, it won't much matter.

But if you don't suck, you probably won't get a top 6 player at all. How many more Sheahans does this team need? At some point you need to add the core pieces to build around. Depth is just no substitute for talent.

That's what I don't get about this argument. Even if you say it's a crapshoot to draft a great player, that should mean it's even more doubtful to draft that great player much later. Where are the players this team needs going to come from? It seems like there's some weird assumption in this scenario that the Wings are going to do as well or somehow even better in the late teens than the early single digits, and that's just not true. Draft evidence over the years absolutely does not indicate that.

and even then, who's talking about generational players? I think most of us are talking about first line players. Nolan Patrick can be a first line guy. Liljegren can be a top pair. Even Gabe Vilardi has a chance at being a first line guy. Detroit doesn't need the next McDavid to make it worthwhile to rebuild.

 

[jkutswings]

Would have loved to see your reaction if he traded Datsyuk for Gomez back in 2007.

Delicious strawman, there.

Detroit in 2007 wasn't well out of contention, pushing 9 years since their last title, with half a decade of standing pat as they continued to slide out of relevancy and towards the end of the streak.

The consideration of trading Datsyuk was over his regular season versus playoff performances thus far in his career, not with the team falling apart and needing a new core.

 

[jkutswings]

But if you don't suck, you probably won't get a top 6 player at all. How many more Sheahans does this team need? At some point you need to add the core pieces to build around. Depth is just no substitute for talent.

That's what I don't get about this argument. Even if you say it's a crapshoot to draft a great player, that should mean it's even more doubtful to draft that great player much later. Where are the players this team needs going to come from? It seems like there's some weird assumption in this scenario that the Wings are going to do as well or somehow even better in the late teens than the early single digits, and that's just not true. Draft evidence over the years absolutely does not indicate that.

and even then, who's talking about generational players? I think most of us are talking about first line players. Nolan Patrick can be a first line guy. Liljegren can be a top pair. Even Gabe Vilardi has a chance at being a first line guy. Detroit doesn't need the next McDavid to make it worthwhile to rebuild.

On point.

Here's to hoping they start landing better players ASAP.

 

[Bench]

The consideration of trading Datsyuk was over his regular season versus playoff performances thus far in his career, not with the team falling apart and needing a new core.

Actually there was a real concern he was going to sign with the team again. They were only going to trade him if they couldn't reach an extension.

 

[Winger98]

Delicious strawman, there.

Detroit in 2007 wasn't well out of contention, pushing 9 years since their last title, with half a decade of standing pat as they continued to slide out of relevancy and towards the end of the streak.

The consideration of trading Datsyuk was over his regular season versus playoff performances thus far in his career, not with the team falling apart and needing a new core.

This might draw some ire, but it would have been interesting if we could have gotten back a slightly lesser center+ something else, and maybe been better off in the playoffs if those pieces stayed healthy. Datsyuk could be a helluva player, but there were a few years there where he had something come up with his legs, he'd gut it out and still go out there, but he wouldn't be nearly as effective.

Guys get hurt, it's not really their fault, and just plain bad luck is definitely a part of it. Just another could a been things.

 

[PuckDynasty]

Would have loved to see your reaction if he traded Datsyuk for Gomez back in 2007.

So let's not make a single trade ever in the past 15 years of a roster player because of a rumored trade that never happened. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. That's how all the Cup teams do it. Keep adding old free agents to a core of 3rd line grinders with a coach where he's managed to have every single player under him regress. Sounds like their on the right track!

 

[AD1066]

Chicago signed Marian Hossa who was their best defensive forward for many years there. Hossa was awesome during their cup runs. No idea where Toews gets this legacy as being a goat in the playoffs when in 12/13 he wasn't even a top three forward or so. That was a core signing.

Pittsburgh aquired the Leaf's best player and just won the Cup. Phil Kessel was the best forward in the 2016 NHL playoffs. He's a point per game player this season. Dude, Los Angeles just won 2 Stanley Cups. Their second best forward has always been Jeff Carter since his arrival. Jeff Carter was a PPG player during their last cup win, and he's got 15 points more than the second leading scorer this year.

Recent cup winners.

Chicago - Marian Hossa, UFA
Pittsburgh - Phil Kessel, TRADE
Los Angeles - Jeff Carter, TRADE

Hell, take a look at the last Cup winner besides those three teams. It was Boston. They signed Zdeno Chara in free agency who went on to win a Norris and a Stanley Cup as captain. Nathan Horton was a ****ing freak in their Stanley Cup victory run.

You absolutely can find a core piece via trade/signing. It's hard as **** though. Especially when you make a trade without sending another core piece back, or a player that has the potential to be a core piece moving forward.

Detroit's core is Larkin/Zetterberg/Mrazek/Mantha IMO. That's a pretty meh core. Top complimentary pieces now and forward-ish include Mike Green and Frans Nielsen. Z is there based on what he's done/role/etc, while the others with potential. Detroit's best player is Mike Green right now - a free agent signing.

The rule of thumb seems to be that 1 out of 3 core players or so can be found with smart trading, but even then a fair amount of assets are usually needed to send the other way. I don't see Ken Holland fleecing another GM in a Forsberg-esque trade, and I don't think we have much to offer up outside of guys like Larkin or Mantha.

Also I think worth mentioning that from your list, Seguin, Hall, Thornton, Nash, Turris, Spezza, Voracek, Carter, Wheeler were all top-15 and mostly top-10 picks to begin with. Whatever various reasons they were traded for, they were originally the property of teams with high draft picks and in some cases would have been held on to had management had better foresight. What I'm trying to say is that while these players do become available and a number of teams have trade acquisitions as part of their core, I'd rather rely on us drafting comparable talent with our own high picks than rely on the odds of Holland taking advantage of another GM.

 

[14ari13]

I'm not sure there's a player I wouldn't include. Right now Mantha looks like our best bet but he's a wing and while he looks good he doesn't look like top3 in the league good.

I'm not opposed to packaging picks/prospects with them, either, for the right player. Really, Holland missed the boat on selling high on some of these guys a couple of years ago before their wheels fell off under Blashill.

We have Larkin and AA, so maybe Mantha would bring back the most.
Maybe we missed the chance with Tatar and Nyquist.

I do not think other GMs want to trade with Holland. Why should anyone help us?

 

[14ari13]

Chicago signed Marian Hossa who was their best defensive forward for many years there. Hossa was awesome during their cup runs. No idea where Toews gets this legacy as being a goat in the playoffs when in 12/13 he wasn't even a top three forward or so. That was a core signing.

Pittsburgh aquired the Leaf's best player and just won the Cup. Phil Kessel was the best forward in the 2016 NHL playoffs. He's a point per game player this season. Dude, Los Angeles just won 2 Stanley Cups. Their second best forward has always been Jeff Carter since his arrival. Jeff Carter was a PPG player during their last cup win, and he's got 15 points more than the second leading scorer this year.

Recent cup winners.

Chicago - Marian Hossa, UFA
Pittsburgh - Phil Kessel, TRADE
Los Angeles - Jeff Carter, TRADE

Hell, take a look at the last Cup winner besides those three teams. It was Boston. They signed Zdeno Chara in free agency who went on to win a Norris and a Stanley Cup as captain. Nathan Horton was a ****ing freak in their Stanley Cup victory run.

You absolutely can find a core piece via trade/signing. It's hard as **** though. Especially when you make a trade without sending another core piece back, or a player that has the potential to be a core piece moving forward.

Detroit's core is Larkin/Zetterberg/Mrazek/Mantha IMO. That's a pretty meh core. Top complimentary pieces now and forward-ish include Mike Green and Frans Nielsen. Z is there based on what he's done/role/etc, while the others with potential. Detroit's best player is Mike Green right now - a free agent signing.

Wood stick, you joined the board in 2015. Was it your 5th or 10th time?

This is real stupid.
LA is kopitar, doughty, king.
Pens is Crosby and Malkin.

Your argument is stupid. Very stupid.

The cup winner is built around #1 dman and #1 centre. Period

The only team which won the cup by adding the core player is Boston.

 

[jkutswings]

Wood stick, you joined the board in 2015. Was it your 5th or 10th time?

This is real stupid.
LA is kopitar, doughty, king.
Pens is Crosby and Malkin.

Your argument is stupid. Very stupid.

The cup winner is built around #1 dman and #1 centre. Period

The only team which won the cup by adding the core player is Boston.

Aside from being rude, your response is a gross oversimplification. Carter and Hossa made major contributions to their respective teams. And while Chara was the biggest piece on the blue line, Boston traded for almost their entire defense. And their run was also significantly on the back of Tim Thomas playing out of his mind...a player originally brought in as a free agent.

I agree that 1C and 1D are the top pieces, but plenty of Cup winners - including Detroit - have had critical acquisitions via trade or free agency at lots of positions.

It feels so long ago that Ray Bourque got traded to chase The Cup...

 

[Reddwit]

Aside from being rude, your response is a gross oversimplification. Carter and Hossa made major contributions to their respective teams. And while Chara was the biggest piece on the blue line, Boston traded for almost their entire defense. And their run was also significantly on the back of Tim Thomas playing out of his mind...a player originally brought in as a free agent.

I agree that 1C and 1D are the top pieces, but plenty of Cup winners - including Detroit - have had critical acquisitions via trade or free agency at lots of positions.

It feels so long ago that Ray Bourque got traded to chase The Cup...

Sure, but I think the point is that neither of those teams are winning Cups where those major FA or trade acquisitions are the key players. We aren't talking about Hossa if Keith or Toews or Kane aren't there. We aren't talking about Carter if Kopitar or Doughty aren't there. We aren't talking about Kessel if Crosby or Letang or Malkin aren't there.

Hell, we aren't even talking about Chara if Bergeron isn't already there and Krejci on the way. And lets not revise history either. When the Bruins got Chara, they thought they were getting another top pairing defenseman after adding what was considered a premier two-way #2 defenseman via trade the year before.

As easily as you can say that every team who has won a Cup with core players acquired via free agency and trade, you can just as easily say "no team has won the Cup in recent years without at least 2 homegrown players becoming elite in the most essential of positions."

With respect to Detroit, I think they have one guy who could become "elite" in an essential position: Larkin. And I say "elite" because I think he could become a center of the Toews/Bergeron variety where they may not be capable of 80 points but they can still put up 60 and give you great defensive hockey to boot. Other than that, you have Mrazek and Mantha, but regardless of whether Mantha becomes an 80 point winger or Mrazek becomes a Vezina-worthy goaltender, we still aren't winning anything without another elite player in an essential position.

 

[jkutswings]

Sure, but I think the point is that neither of those teams are winning Cups where those major FA or trade acquisitions are the key players. We aren't talking about Hossa if Keith or Toews or Kane aren't there. We aren't talking about Carter if Kopitar or Doughty aren't there. We aren't talking about Kessel if Crosby or Letang or Malkin aren't there.

Hell, we aren't even talking about Chara if Bergeron isn't already there and Krejci on the way. And lets not revise history either. When the Bruins got Chara, they thought they were getting another top pairing defenseman after adding what was considered a premier two-way #2 defenseman via trade the year before.

As easily as you can say that every team who has won a Cup with core players acquired via free agency and trade, you can just as easily say "no team has won the Cup in recent years without at least 2 homegrown players becoming elite in the most essential of positions."

With respect to Detroit, I think they have one guy who could become "elite" in an essential position: Larkin. And I say "elite" because I think he could become a center of the Toews/Bergeron variety where they may not be capable of 80 points but they can still put up 60 and give you great defensive hockey to boot. Other than that, you have Mrazek and Mantha, but regardless of whether Mantha becomes an 80 point winger or Mrazek becomes a Vezina-worthy goaltender, we still aren't winning anything without another elite player in an essential position.

Oh, I was never claiming that building EXCLUSIVELY via trade and/or free agency was a good way to go. Just that it's a very important, even vital part of the team building arsenal.

 

[Winger98]

We have Larkin and AA, so maybe Mantha would bring back the most.
Maybe we missed the chance with Tatar and Nyquist.

I do not think other GMs want to trade with Holland. Why should anyone help us?

I doubt any GM wants to help us, but they all want to help themselves. We're really down on this team right now, but we have guys who either had or currently have some value in the right trade situation, it's just about finding those situations we can take advantage of and slip into.