Post-Game Talk: Stolen

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

This might draw some ire, but it would have been interesting if we could have gotten back a slightly lesser center+ something else, and maybe been better off in the playoffs if those pieces stayed healthy. Datsyuk could be a helluva player, but there were a few years there where he had something come up with his legs, he'd gut it out and still go out there, but he wouldn't be nearly as effective.

Guys get hurt, it's not really their fault, and just plain bad luck is definitely a part of it. Just another could a been things.

You have an elite of the elite 1C, Selke caliber C who pots PPG on a team that won a Cup and very very easily could have won back to back. This is a hypothetical that doesn't need to be delved into.

What kind of slightly lesser C are you talking? You're talking maybe one or two players in the entire league that would fit your slightly lesser C and the difference between the two would be like a 3rd or 4th round pick... which for playoff contending purposes is basically nothing.

You don't trade Selke, PPG Cs. You don't delve into hypotheticals about trading Selke, PPG Cs. You thank the Lord above that you landed them and you ride them to Cups.

If you have perfect hindsight (know that Patrice Bergeron would become basically Pavel Datsyuk minus 5-10 points in a couple years) and you could get Bergy + 1st or something, you look at it... but at the time, that would have been a damn terrible trade.

 

[jkutswings]

You have an elite of the elite 1C, Selke caliber C who pots PPG on a team that won a Cup and very very easily could have won back to back. This is a hypothetical that doesn't need to be delved into.

What kind of slightly lesser C are you talking? You're talking maybe one or two players in the entire league that would fit your slightly lesser C and the difference between the two would be like a 3rd or 4th round pick... which for playoff contending purposes is basically nothing.

You don't trade Selke, PPG Cs. You don't delve into hypotheticals about trading Selke, PPG Cs. You thank the Lord above that you landed them and you ride them to Cups.

If you have perfect hindsight (know that Patrice Bergeron would become basically Pavel Datsyuk minus 5-10 points in a couple years) and you could get Bergy + 1st or something, you look at it... but at the time, that would have been a damn terrible trade.

I think you're looking at Datsyuk as he turned out, not as he was discussed at the time.

He was definitely already an electric player, but there were also questions about whether he tended to go cold in the playoffs.

I'm not saying it would have been smart to trade him, even if the return was amazing. I'm just saying that, prior to 2006-2007, he had 12 points in 42 playoff games, and it wasn't a given that he'd go on to do what he did in the postseason.

 

[Winger98]

You have an elite of the elite 1C, Selke caliber C who pots PPG on a team that won a Cup and very very easily could have won back to back. This is a hypothetical that doesn't need to be delved into.

What kind of slightly lesser C are you talking? You're talking maybe one or two players in the entire league that would fit your slightly lesser C and the difference between the two would be like a 3rd or 4th round pick... which for playoff contending purposes is basically nothing.

You don't trade Selke, PPG Cs. You don't delve into hypotheticals about trading Selke, PPG Cs. You thank the Lord above that you landed them and you ride them to Cups.

If you have perfect hindsight (know that Patrice Bergeron would become basically Pavel Datsyuk minus 5-10 points in a couple years) and you could get Bergy + 1st or something, you look at it... but at the time, that would have been a damn terrible trade.

Cup. Singular. And the guy we rode to that cup up front was Zetterberg.

And if the slightly lesser guy is healthy, yeah, that matters. If Datsyuk was healthy, he would have likely been more of a factor in those years we came up short. But he wasn't. And we did.

 

[Oddbob]

Hoping are team loses is PATHETIC, end of story! This new generation thing of welcoming tanking on purpose has no integrity, respectability. Quite frankly I would lose respect for my team, the Detroit Red Wings, if they pulled a Sabre and makes trades just to lose.

The Wings can get back to the top by simply starting to dump a bad contract here, and there, and letting our youngsters try and win, while drafting. We don't need to sell off everything for sake of trading, to lose on purpose. Frankly, it is weird that anyone calling themselves a fan of something wants them to lose on purpose.

 

[jkutswings]

Hoping are team loses is PATHETIC, end of story! This new generation thing of welcoming tanking on purpose has no integrity, respectability. Quite frankly I would lose respect for my team, the Detroit Red Wings, if they pulled a Sabre and makes trades just to lose.

The Wings can get back to the top by simply starting to dump a bad contract here, and there, and letting our youngsters try and win, while drafting. We don't need to sell off everything for sake of trading, to lose on purpose. Frankly, it is weird that anyone calling themselves a fan of something wants them to lose on purpose.

If you believe that Buffalo's primary motivation for making trades was to lose additional games, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Tatar Shots]

If you believe that Buffalo's primary motivation for making trades was to lose additional games, then I don't know what to tell you.

Their goal was 100% to lose games. Those goalie trades were a joke. Sole purpose was to lose more games. Not to mention they traded a couple of their best producing players for injured ones.

 

[Frk It]

If you believe that Buffalo's primary motivation for making trades was to lose additional games, then I don't know what to tell you.

The season of the McDavid draft that is 100% what they were doing.

 

[PuckDynasty]

Hoping are team loses is PATHETIC, end of story! This new generation thing of welcoming tanking on purpose has no integrity, respectability. Quite frankly I would lose respect for my team, the Detroit Red Wings, if they pulled a Sabre and makes trades just to lose.

The Wings can get back to the top by simply starting to dump a bad contract here, and there, and letting our youngsters try and win, while drafting. We don't need to sell off everything for sake of trading, to lose on purpose. Frankly, it is weird that anyone calling themselves a fan of something wants them to lose on purpose.

I hate to break it to you, but the Detroit Red Wings you know and love got the way they did by......tanking. Jimmy D traded off anything he had of value for draft picks.

It honestly doesn't make sense from a strategic or business angle to keep a team with high paying veterans that aren't winning. So if you can cut the payroll by say 20 or 30 million, get significantly better draft picks and build for the future by finishing 29th or 30th in the league instead of 20th or 21st, why wouldn't you?

The Wings have already proven they can't get back to the top or even progress past the first round of the playoffs with Holland at the helm and rebuilding on the fly. If they had someone in charge who was willing to lose the blind loyalty, make hard decisions, take a few risks by making a trade, it might be a different.

 

[Oddbob]

I hate to break it to you, but the Detroit Red Wings you know and love got the way they did by......tanking. Jimmy D traded off anything he had of value for draft picks.

It honestly doesn't make sense from a strategic or business angle to keep a team with high paying veterans that aren't winning. So if you can cut the payroll by say 20 or 30 million, get significantly better draft picks and build for the future by finishing 29th or 30th in the league instead of 20th or 21st, why wouldn't you?

The Wings have already proven they can't get back to the top or even progress past the first round of the playoffs with Holland at the helm and rebuilding on the fly. If they had someone in charge who was willing to lose the blind loyalty, make hard decisions, take a few risks by making a trade, it might be a different.

I never said they are getting back to the top with overpaid veterans. I said they do not need to tank to improve. They are already at the back as is, so dump one or two bad contracts, and things immediately look much better.

Lets say they could unload Ericsson and Howard without retention, even if they got nothing back, that gives them some flexibility right there, plus the cap generally goes up, not down, season to season, thus the Wings cap situation would and will look much better, allowing them to add proven younger pieces, if they wanted to.

Also, tanking ain't looking so great for Buffalo, they are a "better" team than us, yet where we are in the standings. After next year, they are going to have to pony up huge bucks to resign Jack Eichel, and their cap situation will start to not look so great.

Besides that, Buffalo, Edmonton and Toronto all tanked but got extremely lucky with Franchise players being available. That is nearly never the case, as many drafts feature Nail Yakupov type players at the front. Nolan Patrick may go 1st this year, but he projects to be a solid to pretty good NHL'er, not a player you build your franchise around.

Add on about Devellano and tanking. The Wings in the 80's were a brutal team, other than Yzerman, they were a sorry bunch of players. They weren't some force to be reckoned with that retooled by tanking. They were bad, drafted Yzerman, continued to be bad for another 4 or 5 years, and then got the payoff.

 

[Flowah]

Besides that, Buffalo, Edmonton and Toronto all tanked but got extremely lucky with Franchise players being available. That is nearly never the case, as many drafts feature Nail Yakupov type players at the front. Nolan Patrick may go 1st this year, but he projects to be a solid to pretty good NHL'er, not a player you build your franchise around.

There have been tons of franchise quality players in the top10 since the lockout. You can't say it's "nearly never the case."

 

[chances14]

If you believe that Buffalo's primary motivation for making trades was to lose additional games, then I don't know what to tell you.

i think the notion that teams tank every year for better draft position is overblown by a lot of people, but buffalo in the mcdavid draft was one of the most obvious tanks I have ever seen.

 

[Oddbob]

There have been tons of franchise quality players in the top10 since the lockout. You can't say it's "nearly never the case."

I mean, more Generational types, which since Ovechkin and Crosby, we have now only seen potentially three since, McDavid, Eichel, and Matthews. Most years are much less promising.

 

[Oddbob]

i think the notion that teams tank every year for better draft position is overblown by a lot of people, but buffalo in the mcdavid draft was one of the most obvious tanks I have ever seen.

Yeah I agree, most teams don't go full tank, but as you said Buffalo did indeed, and they didn't even hide it well. They traded goalies every other week it seemed. One would get hot, and then he was gone for nothing in return. Also, their GM complains in front of the media, about last place deserving 1st, and acted quite babyish when they lost out and had Eichel as their pick.

 

[SoupNazi]

If you believe that Buffalo's primary motivation for making trades was to lose additional games, then I don't know what to tell you.

That's exactly what they were doing.

 

[Syckle78]

Hoping are team loses is PATHETIC, end of story! This new generation thing of welcoming tanking on purpose has no integrity, respectability. Quite frankly I would lose respect for my team, the Detroit Red Wings, if they pulled a Sabre and makes trades just to lose.

The Wings can get back to the top by simply starting to dump a bad contract here, and there, and letting our youngsters try and win, while drafting. We don't need to sell off everything for sake of trading, to lose on purpose. Frankly, it is weird that anyone calling themselves a fan of something wants them to lose on purpose.

All of our youngsters that are worth anything are up and guess what? We suck! This team is a mess from top to bottom. Current roster? A mess. Prospect pool? A mess. Cap management? A mess. This team isn't going to turn around by doing anything simply. It needs a complete tear down and rebuild including the team building philosophy at the top.

 

[InjuredChoker]

most teams picking in top 5 don't intend to be bad or even intend to lose games/tank; they just sell their veterans, go with their younger players in an attempt to change the core. sometimes they get a top pick and get lucky, sometimes they don't.

only real true tank job, as in season had no other purpose except finish dead last this past decade belongs to sabres.

Enroth on Sabres: ‘Only goal was finish last’

 

[Pavels Dog]

All of our youngsters that are worth anything are up and guess what? We suck! This team is a mess from top to bottom. Current roster? A mess. Prospect pool? A mess. Cap management? A mess. This team isn't going to turn around by doing anything simply. It needs a complete tear down and rebuild including the team building philosophy at the top.

Svechnikov isn't worth anything? Hronek and Cholowski aren't worth anything? Mantha/AA/Larkin/Mrazek can't develop into more than they are in their rookie/sophomore seasons? A competent coach can't get more out of these players or get our powerplay to more than 30th in the league?

This team has a lot of skill coming up. Almost every d-man we're developing now is in the puck-moving, high hockey IQ mold. Russo/Hicketts/Hronek/Saarijarvi/etc. Svechnikov is an Abdelkader with more skill. Bertuzzi has been very promising. This roster will get more skilled in the coming years no matter what. Our draft picks this year will help too, no matter if it's top 5 or top 15. But our biggest problem going forward is going to be goaltending if Mrazek doesn't bounce back. And goalies aren't usually drafted in the top 10.

 

[jkutswings]

I mean, more Generational types, which since Ovechkin and Crosby, we have now only seen potentially three since, McDavid, Eichel, and Matthews. Most years are much less promising.

The very term generational implies that such a caliber of player, however acquired, only comes along once every 20-30 years.

The Wings are, right now, a bad hockey team. They lack high-end talent.

High draft picks, statistically, are the best way to find high-end talent.

Stop kicking the can down the road, sell the assets you can get value for, and start rebuilding.

only real true tank job, as in season had no other purpose except finish dead last this past decade belongs to sabres.

Enroth on Sabres: ‘Only goal was finish last’

I stand corrected.

But good for Buffalo. When you're in that market, a player like McDavid is about the only way you're not gonna be pushing irrelevance.

Svechnikov isn't worth anything? Hronek and Cholowski aren't worth anything? Mantha/AA/Larkin/Mrazek can't develop into more than they are in their rookie/sophomore seasons? A competent coach can't get more out of these players or get our powerplay to more than 30th in the league?

This team has a lot of skill coming up. Almost every d-man we're developing now is in the puck-moving, high hockey IQ mold. Russo/Hicketts/Hronek/Saarijarvi/etc. Svechnikov is an Abdelkader with more skill. Bertuzzi has been very promising. This roster will get more skilled in the coming years no matter what. Our draft picks this year will help too, no matter if it's top 5 or top 15. But our biggest problem going forward is going to be goaltending if Mrazek doesn't bounce back. And goalies aren't usually drafted in the top 10.

Huh. I seem to remember hearing similar things said about guys like Nyquist and Tatar. And Smith and Kindl. And how DeKeyser was gonna totally invigorate the defense. And on and on and on.

There is plenty to be encouraged about with regards to their youth. But realistically, they have a collection of potentially very good 2nd tier players. There's nobody with the pedigree and pace that's setting the world on fire to such a degree that they definitely look like a cornerstone in the making.

Now, if Detroit manages to land a core piece or two ON TOP of all those guys...now we're cooking. But the earliest that can realistically happen is this summer, with a whole lot of luck. We'll see.

 

[Frk It]

Svechnikov isn't worth anything? Hronek and Cholowski aren't worth anything? Mantha/AA/Larkin/Mrazek can't develop into more than they are in their rookie/sophomore seasons? A competent coach can't get more out of these players or get our powerplay to more than 30th in the league?

This team has a lot of skill coming up. Almost every d-man we're developing now is in the puck-moving, high hockey IQ mold. Russo/Hicketts/Hronek/Saarijarvi/etc. Svechnikov is an Abdelkader with more skill. Bertuzzi has been very promising. This roster will get more skilled in the coming years no matter what. Our draft picks this year will help too, no matter if it's top 5 or top 15. But our biggest problem going forward is going to be goaltending if Mrazek doesn't bounce back. And goalies aren't usually drafted in the top 10.

Our biggest problem is not goaltending. Relatively speaking; a solid starting goalie is one of the easier pieces to acquire. See: Dubnyk, Jones, Talbot, Bishop, etc.

Our biggest problem is the absence of a 1C and a 1D, and most likely no one you are listing is going to fix that. I can more than understand being against that type of thing.

Hoping are team loses is PATHETIC, end of story! This new generation thing of welcoming tanking on purpose has no integrity, respectability. Quite frankly I would lose respect for my team, the Detroit Red Wings, if they pulled a Sabre and makes trades just to lose.

The Wings can get back to the top by simply starting to dump a bad contract here, and there, and letting our youngsters try and win, while drafting. We don't need to sell off everything for sake of trading, to lose on purpose. Frankly, it is weird that anyone calling themselves a fan of something wants them to lose on purpose.

I mean, more Generational types, which since Ovechkin and Crosby, we have now only seen potentially three since, McDavid, Eichel, and Matthews. Most years are much less promising.

I don't advocate doing a tank in the fashion that the Sabres did. That is taking it to a pretty unflattering extent. I can more than understand being against that particular type of thing.

That said -- there is a direct correlation between drafting high and PPG. I know it is a very endearing thought to think that you don't have to succumb to being bad to get impact players in the NHL, but statistically speaking that is simply just a very difficult thing to do. Sounds nice in theory. In practice, it's frankly not a very viable strategy. And teams that don't want to attempt it, understand that. I'd actually say that thinking you can do it any other way is akin to having your cake and eating it too. "I want to remain good AND I want to get elite players in the draft." Well, yeah... who wouldn't? The unfortunate truth is that it is almost impossible to pull that off nowadays. Kudos to us for even doing it once.

 

[wings95]

Hoping are team loses is PATHETIC, end of story! This new generation thing of welcoming tanking on purpose has no integrity, respectability. Quite frankly I would lose respect for my team, the Detroit Red Wings, if they pulled a Sabre and makes trades just to lose.

The Wings can get back to the top by simply starting to dump a bad contract here, and there, and letting our youngsters try and win, while drafting. We don't need to sell off everything for sake of trading, to lose on purpose. Frankly, it is weird that anyone calling themselves a fan of something wants them to lose on purpose.

I wish there was a like button. I agree lots with your post!

 

[PuckDynasty]

I wish there was a like button. I agree lots with your post!

What you're forgetting is that we HAD cap space, and plenty of it, at end of last season. What did Holland do with it? So, we get rid of a few bad contracts, then what? Is Holland going to do anything wise with it? He's never shown that he can.

 

[Flowah]

I mean, more Generational types, which since Ovechkin and Crosby, we have now only seen potentially three since, McDavid, Eichel, and Matthews. Most years are much less promising.

Why do they have to be generational? Kopitar and Toews aren't generational, but you can damn well build a winning team around them. Since 2005, there have been lots of elite franchise players in the top10.

Crosby, Price, Toews, Backstrom, Kane, Stamkos, Doughty, Tavares, Hedman, OEL, Seguin, Hall, Matthews, Laine, McDavid, Eichel.

There's a bunch of other players you could make a strong case for like Ekblad, Nylander, Forseberg, Lindholm and so on.

Generational? No. But franchise nonetheless. The Kings won 2 cups with Doughty/Kopitar leading their core. Is Kane/Toews generational? Kane, Toews, Keith led their team to 3 cups.

You don't need generational. You don't need a Crosby. But you definitely need a bonafide 1C and 1D, both of which we lack, and both of which can be found in significantly higher percentages in the top10.

 

[14ari13]

Why do they have to be generational? Kopitar and Toews aren't generational, but you can damn well build a winning team around them. Since 2005, there have been lots of elite franchise players in the top10.

Crosby, Price, Toews, Backstrom, Kane, Stamkos, Doughty, Tavares, Hedman, OEL, Seguin, Hall, Matthews, Laine, McDavid, Eichel.

There's a bunch of other players you could make a strong case for like Ekblad, Nylander, Forseberg, Lindholm and so on.

Generational? No. But franchise nonetheless. The Kings won 2 cups with Doughty/Kopitar leading their core. Is Kane/Toews generational? Kane, Toews, Keith led their team to 3 cups.

You don't need generational. You don't need a Crosby. But you definitely need a bonafide 1C and 1D, both of which we lack, and both of which can be found in significantly higher percentages in the top10.

There are different ways to build the winner, but the most common is around 1C and 1D and then you have to give them the supporting cast.

One thing is that a red hot dominant player can take the team on his shoulders and carry the team a long way. This is mostly the goalie.
Boston and LA, Ducks.

When we had a hall of fame roster in 02, bertuzzi almost won the series against us. He was the most dominant player in the league at the time.

NJDs won their cups thanks to Stevens. He was a beast and he terrorised forwards in his zone. I remember McCarty said to hit Stevens was like hitting a brick wall.

 

[HockeyinHD]

You don't need generational. You don't need a Crosby. But you definitely need a bonafide 1C and 1D, both of which we lack, and both of which can be found in significantly higher percentages in the top10.

How many teams who have that kind of 1C and 1D are sufficiently competitive in your opinion, and which aren't?

 

[silkyjohnson50]

How many teams who have that kind of 1C and 1D are sufficiently competitive in your opinion, and which aren't?

Do you argue just for the sake of arguing?

You can go back half a century or more if you'd like. A #1C and D are vital. Winning without one of them is rare.