Winning face offs is not meaningless. We are not a great puck possession team as it is, so face offs are very important. Gordon is solid on the dot, on D, and on the PK. Our weakness in not left wing, and wingers are the least important position and easiest to replace. We are in the top 10 in scoring and our PP is improving. Our Defense men need improvement and this is partly why DM has been adding in this area and why we are carrying 8 D men. Our PK needs improvement. Neither of those holes are patched by having more skill forwards.
Waived: Steve Downie (Cleared and assigned to the AHL)
- Thread starter Mosby
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Winning face offs is not meaningless. We are not a great puck possession team as it is, so face offs are very important. Gordon is solid on the dot, on D, and on the PK. Our weakness in not left wing, and wingers are the least important position and easiest to replace. We are in the top 10 in scoring and our PP is improving. Our Defense men need improvement and this is partly why DM has been adding in this area and why we are carrying 8 D men. Our PK needs improvement. Neither of those holes are patched by having more skill forwards.
Okay, meaningless was the wrong word
While they are an important part of the game, my point was that we can't score, so while winning FOs is wonderful, we end up wasting them because we can't follow through and benefit from them.Our defense is a bit young, but have done okay the past few games, however, we still need someone that can score consistently. We have the potential in Domi and Duclair, but teams have easily shut them down lately. I'm not sure what the solution is, but while I appreciate Gordon's work, I'm wondering how much he'll be expecting to re-sign here. if it's over 1.5 million, I say we move on and look for someone else who can play the defensive/PK role even if we don't get as strong of a FO victor. Typically, Gordon plays about 16-20 shifts per game and around 11-14 minutes. Those stats will most likely go down if we re-sign him
BUX7PHX
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Okay, meaningless was the wrong word
Our defense is a bit young, but have done okay the past few games, however, we still need someone that can score consistently. We have the potential in Domi and Duclair, but teams have easily shut them down lately. I'm not sure what the solution is, but while I appreciate Gordon's work, I'm wondering how much he'll be expecting to re-sign here. if it's over 1.5 million, I say we move on and look for someone else who can play the defensive/PK role even if we don't get as strong of a FO victor. Typically, Gordon plays about 16-20 shifts per game and around 11-14 minutes. Those stats will most likely go down if we re-sign him
Our defense issue is primarily on the PK still. I do feel like we are slightly less aggressive than other teams in our PK setup, which may hurt some. We have improved on rebound opportunities, so that is a positive. Some of that will come with time, but some of that is also a combination of nastiness, physicality, and solid positioning in transition. I don't think we are an easy defense to play against, but certainly not the most difficult to play against.
Faceoff-wise, I am more concerned with defensive zone faceoff wins, which is what Hanzal and Gordon excel at. As you said, we don't score off of faceoffs in the offensive zone a lot, but if we are winning the defensive zone faceoffs, then there is a limited opportunity for the opposition to score.
As I have said before, I am a fan of quality shots - eventually higher quality shots will go in more than lower quality shots. It falls in line with how we have performed this year - we may not be shooting the puck 35-40 times a game, but some of the games where we get 18 shots away - 12 of them are high quality shots. Regardless of whether or not we win or lose a faceoff, we have to take advantage of quality shot opportunities, whether in transition or for prolonged time in the offensive cycle.
For Downie, I think he was the right type of player for the team - a lot of grit, some garbage goals, but a really frustrating player to play against. Don't regret the signing, but you could also tell that a player like Martinook did the work in the corners as well as Downie, if not better. And unfortunately, Downie has had the refs ire for so long, that he was never going to be given a fair shake at times. Sets the team up for negatives, even though he was the exact type of player needed.
Okay, meaningless was the wrong word
Our defense is a bit young, but have done okay the past few games, however, we still need someone that can score consistently. We have the potential in Domi and Duclair, but teams have easily shut them down lately. I'm not sure what the solution is, but while I appreciate Gordon's work, I'm wondering how much he'll be expecting to re-sign here. if it's over 1.5 million, I say we move on and look for someone else who can play the defensive/PK role even if we don't get as strong of a FO victor. Typically, Gordon plays about 16-20 shifts per game and around 11-14 minutes. Those stats will most likely go down if we re-sign him
I agree, Gordon's pay will come down and maybe 1.5 mill is the number. We are 8th in GF and 27th in GAA. Scoring isn't our problem at the moment, our D, mostly defense men is the problem. Our C's are pretty good on D when they are down low. Our wingers are fine usually.
We aren't quick enough on D to stand guys up at the blue line and still be able to recover the puck and make a good first pass. oel is the only D man that can stand a guy up, retrieve the puck, and make a quick first pass. This is where our possession and D problems lie primarily.
Part of the solution is Murphy continuing to improve but in the off season we need Yandle and/or a veteran 1st or second pairing RHD, somebody better then Stone/Murphy. If we can fix that, with all our forwards coming, we will be a great shape next year.
Bonsai Tree
Turning a new leaf
- Feb 2, 2014
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I think that some people might be too obsessed with certain stats, as if fantasy hockey wereplayed out on the ice. A great face off man may not generate any stats except for the team's face off percentage. He wins a face off and leaves the ice. One sees it time and again and the value of a good face off man should not be undervalued. Gordon's value should not be undervalued.
I'm also surprised at all the calls for Yandle to return. Sure I'd love to have him on the team for his offense, but really, he is not the answer to shore up a defense that's leaky.
I'm also surprised at all the calls for Yandle to return. Sure I'd love to have him on the team for his offense, but really, he is not the answer to shore up a defense that's leaky.
BUX7PHX
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Agreed - I think that there is some over-rating of offense from the back end. Remember how everyone said that once Yandle was traded, our offense would go in the tank? Given that we didn't necessarily have the forwards, but we have done fairly well this year without that. Yeah, PP has had its moments of awful, but we have been through that before. Speaking my opinion here, but there are a lot of moments where our puck movement and ability to keep possession on the PP is as good, if not better than when Yandle was here. The only difference is that the shooting percentage is down on the PP this year, but if the scoring chances are there, that is all that can be asked for.
If you play good defense, you can transition out of the zone much more easily. Creating stops, bad shots, turnovers will most likely put you in a position to have open ice to skate to. Good defense can create offense, but good offense does not necessarily create defense. Our forwards have been pretty good about getting back in transition and taking care of the 3rd man. Much more impressive than what I was expecting.
Yandle is not a great D when the other team has control of the puck in his own D zone. It just seems like to me from watching the games, that our D is slow to get to the puck or gets to the puck first sometimes on a dump, but can't make that first clearing pass quick enough. I think Yandle would help with his quickness to the puck on a dump and his first pass too.
I have shared this story before but about 3 years after Wheeler was drafted I attended a game between UND and Minnesota and was sitting beside a Calgary Flames scout who was literally drooling over Toews who he said was #1 on his list by a landslide. I asked him for thoughts on Wheeler and the feedback wasn't complimentary. Maybe a 3rd liner type stuff. Certainly made it sound like he wasn't a guy high on their radar screen. Project player. Looking back his numbers were never jaw dropping at the NCAA level. Hell, he struggled with the USHL. Goal total sales dropped in his 3rd year of college. Lots of red flags.
My point though is it took years before Wheeler put it all together to the point where he is a first line player on virtually every team in the league. Perlini has the skill set but has struggled putting it all together. All hope is not lost though provided you give him that time to develop.
BUX7PHX
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Hate to break this to you, but Yandle wouldn't really go into the corners all that much. That is one reason why he stayed so healthy.
Go back to some games from last year and even previous years. I am not saying that Yandle avoided the puck, but there were quite a few times in transition and on dump-ins where the first place that Yandle would go is directly to the crease area, even when he was still positioned well enough and had the speed to chase down the puck first. I recall games where he would literally point Stone to play the corners or walls while he was happy with settling into the middle. Also makes you available to take that pass and lead the puck up the ice - being in that slot area really means that you have the shortest path to a coughed up puck just about anywhere in the defensive zone. That was part of the reason why he brought the puck up the ice so often and had such good zone exit stats (outside of exiting the zone on the PP, which brought his stats up considerably as well).
And don't get me wrong, going to the crease area as the 2nd defender in is fine, but that also doesn't play up to one of our strengths either, which was having a big body in the middle to prevent traffic for rebounds or quick plays to the slot areas.
Basically, we would be solving some of the issue, as he would be available to help move the puck out for certain plays. But it could also lead to us getting hemmed into our own zone if the defense failed to disrupt the dump-in and did not establish possession. Like what happened last year and why we struggled at it without a stable veteran presence (Morris, Klesla, or Aucoin) playing with Yandle. There is a reason why Yandle's +/- started to go down, and that is a strong reason. Big, young players were taking care of the puck on dump ins and plays in the corners, where veteran forwards on the opposing team can make the Stones and Murphys look silly in the early parts of their careers.
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Fyreman
Ret FD Batt Chief
- Jul 19, 2013
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Are you talking about Blake Wheeler? If you are, read this:
"After the Coyotes drafted him, Wheeler attended the University of Minnesota. When his collegiate career ended, however, he refused to come to terms with the Coyotes, despite being offered the maximum entry-level deal allowed under the collective bargaining agreement."
**** Blake Wheeler. That's why Doan takes a run at him every chance he gets...
Oh there's hate for what he did. That being said he's a hell of a hockey player today.
- Oct 26, 2006
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RemoAZ
Let it burn
Sure we can while we have so many young guys on their ELCs. It actually makes sense to stock the roster with more young talent on the scoring lines and have higher priced solid veterans below them. Much better than those average guys manning top lines and scrap heap vets filling the other spots as we've done in the past.
Bonsai Tree
Turning a new leaf
- Feb 2, 2014
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Yeah but karma's a real *****. He thought he had his deal with an original 6 in a great city with plenty of outside income possibilities and a ton of ways to spend his money. He promptly got traded to Atlanta and then ended up in a frozen little town where he lives life in a fishbowl without any of the amenities of Boston.
We also fired the entire scouting staff that selected Wheeler due to his lack of development.
zerekstar
Registered User
I agree. I think the Coyotes value Gordon much more than us posters do. I love the work that Gordon does, and besides being good in the dot we can't forget his PK abilities.
No we can't. If we pay a 4C 3 million a year, what will players like Hanzal and others want. Just because you can afford to pay him that, you have to be careful to what that does to other players contracts and what the agents are going to start asking for their clients.
RemoAZ
Let it burn
That's crap. This team has never had designated lines. If Vermette centers a line with Doan and Martinook while the young, lesser paid players man scoring lines, no one will call it the 4th line. When the younger guys finish their ELCs, those vet's contracts will be up anyway. Hanzal's next contract will be impacted by his health and production, not what we're playing Vermette. Two completely different players and scenarios.
I disagree. If you start paying 4th liners 3 mill/yr who averages .24 pts./ game, how much are you going to pay the Domi, Duclair, Strome etc. when their ELC expires. Forget about them, what about OEL,Stone, Murphy, Richardson, Martinook etc. I love Gordon and how he plays and what he brings, but all those players I just mentioned are worth more and will command more money than Gordon. It' a snowball affect and it might not bite you in the ass today but it will tomorrow.
CC96
Serious Offender
If one of your veteran players is making $3 million and is playing on th 4th. line, it just means he's not living up to expectations. I don't see how it has any bearing on contract values for unrelated young players coming off their ELC's. The AAV of said contracts will exclusively be based on the young players' performance, not the salary of underperforming veterans.
For example, Martinook's agent probably wouldn't go into contract negotiations saying "Vermette plays on the fourth line and makes $3.75 million but Jordan plays on the THIRD line, so he should be making $5 million".
If Vermette is playing on the fourth line, it just means he's not living up the expectation that he would come back and continue to play as a solid, all situations, top-9 center in our line-up, as he did in year's past. That's it.
Scott Gomez used to make $7.5 million playing on Montreal's fourth line. It didn't mean that Montreal had to start paying their quality young players coming off rookie deals $9 million a season.
For example, Martinook's agent probably wouldn't go into contract negotiations saying "Vermette plays on the fourth line and makes $3.75 million but Jordan plays on the THIRD line, so he should be making $5 million".
If Vermette is playing on the fourth line, it just means he's not living up the expectation that he would come back and continue to play as a solid, all situations, top-9 center in our line-up, as he did in year's past. That's it.
Scott Gomez used to make $7.5 million playing on Montreal's fourth line. It didn't mean that Montreal had to start paying their quality young players coming off rookie deals $9 million a season.
I am pretty sure Gordon is making 3 mill+ as our 4th line center. The trade made sense because we got rid of Korpi making 2.5 mill. So, for 500k more, I think it is worth it to have Gordon. Now Gordon is over paid, and we can likely sign him for 2 mill or less this summer and I think we should.
Salary comparisons are always with other like players on an ELC. You can't compare salaries between a ELC contract and an RFA contract or a UFA contract.
Salary comparisons are always with other like players on an ELC. You can't compare salaries between a ELC contract and an RFA contract or a UFA contract.
CC96
Serious Offender
Gordon has 2 points this year, and we have oodles of good center prospects coming up the pipeline. Additionally, it's almost certain that one of Strome and Dvorak, or possibly even both will make the team next year. We should cut bait with Gordon.
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