Statistics Thread
- Thread starter YNWA14
- Start date
Duchene2MacKinnon
In the hands of Genius
- Aug 8, 2006
- 45,300
- 9,465
LOL I mean how can anyone with a straight face say a 30 yard shot that goes way over the goal is a chance get real. I cant even believe this is an argument tbh.
Yes, it's a hockey assist but not necessarily counted every time in soccer.
Here Busquets was the last player to touch the ball before Messi. Did he create the chance?
Duchene2MacKinnon
In the hands of Genius
- Aug 8, 2006
- 45,300
- 9,465
Yes, which stresses the point that it's far from a revealing stat.
If you continue to send great passes to your striker who never one times it but on the contrary fails to control the ball repeatedly, you're doing great but it's not showing.
That doesn’t make it subjective. It’s cut and dry on what the stat exactly is.
Now to argue on its usefulness, that can definitely be debated.
Indeed which is why KdB would have like 300 chances created this season it we took that into account.
Duchene2MacKinnon
In the hands of Genius
- Aug 8, 2006
- 45,300
- 9,465
Hence why the "chance" is subjective. It's a chance created who defines a chance like that... nobody.
YNWA14
Onbreekbaar
- Dec 29, 2010
- 34,543
- 2,560
Because what you're ignorantly doing is looking at the outcome as opposed to the process. Do players score from 30 yard shots? Do you understand what 'chance' means?
If Busquets was not there could Messi have done that? Nobody is putting a weight on this value, but he was certainly important in that play still. Nobody is saying to take stats as the be all end all either, they're meant to be supplementary and provide insight.
Duchene2MacKinnon
In the hands of Genius
- Aug 8, 2006
- 45,300
- 9,465
Nope not at all. You got me.
Literally the stupidest take. Enjoy thinking Willian is the 3rd best chance creator. Same as that guy who tried to convince Ozil was the best play maker of all time.
YNWA14
Onbreekbaar
- Dec 29, 2010
- 34,543
- 2,560
Nobody here thinks Willian is the '3rd best' chance creator. What's stupid is you arguing something is subjective or saying something isn't a chance when there are plenty of examples that define it exactly as that, then having the gall to try and talk down to others about it.
There's plenty better statistics that help break down the quality of these chances, but that's not what this is about.
Duchene2MacKinnon
In the hands of Genius
- Aug 8, 2006
- 45,300
- 9,465
A) it is subjective and B) a 30 yard shot well over the goal is not a chance. But yeah, I couldnt care less about this. I said it in passing but it dragged on. Take care.
YNWA14
Onbreekbaar
- Dec 29, 2010
- 34,543
- 2,560
The outcome of the shot is a miss, but shooting from 30 yards out is what is the chance, not the outcome. It's really not difficult to understand.
Blender
Registered User
- Dec 2, 2009
- 51,399
- 45,290
That tweet is incredibly misleading. For one it's showing key pass stats but calling them "chances created", and secondly it's not a ranking of the top 6 players, it's the top player in key passes from the 6 teams indicated, which aren't even the top 6.
Pepe is 34th in the league in key passes, Fred is 44th for example.
https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...erStatistics/England-Premier-League-2019-2020
Pepe is 34th in the league in key passes, Fred is 44th for example.
https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...erStatistics/England-Premier-League-2019-2020
Duchene2MacKinnon
In the hands of Genius
- Aug 8, 2006
- 45,300
- 9,465
Hoofing the ball 40 feet in the air is never a chance. Even you can comprehend that one. But like I said I don't really care what you define as a chance or about that "stat"
East Coast Bias
Registered User
To some extent yes. But united’s top 2 creative MF played like 13 PL games each. (Pogba and Bruno)
their FBs being useless on offense tho is a real concern.
YNWA14
Onbreekbaar
- Dec 29, 2010
- 34,543
- 2,560
You still just don't get it. It has nothing to do with where the ball ends up, nor does it have anything to do with 'my definition'.
YNWA14
Onbreekbaar
- Dec 29, 2010
- 34,543
- 2,560
Blender
Registered User
- Dec 2, 2009
- 51,399
- 45,290
The stat in that tweet is key passes, and is defined as a pass (or cross) that leads to a shot. It's as objective as counting shots in the game, and if the key pass stat isn't valid than neither is the shot stats you see in a game.
Aladyyn
they praying for the death of a rockstar
Live in the Now
Registered User
Premier League Player Stats - Big chances created
This is the one that actually matters, grading the quality of the chance based on it actually being good. Henderson is quite high on this list btw, but the top two are not surprising.
This is the one that actually matters, grading the quality of the chance based on it actually being good. Henderson is quite high on this list btw, but the top two are not surprising.
Blender
Registered User
- Dec 2, 2009
- 51,399
- 45,290
Mahrez being tied at 2nd isn't surprising either, there is an argument to be made that he's City's 2nd best player.
YNWA14
Onbreekbaar
- Dec 29, 2010
- 34,543
- 2,560
I agree. He also played almost 900 fewer minutes than KdB in the league also (the equivalent of 10 games), though even with that time it seems unlikely that he'd close the gap.
I don't seek out statistical insights, so I'm ignorant of what categories have been studied, but your post crystallised for me the point that none of the data in this thread touches on an essential part of the game - movement off the ball.
This feeds into the earlier debate about 'assists' and 'chances created'.
To use an example that occurred to me for obvious reasons:
In classical terms, the above is an 'individual goal'. However, as the co-commentator (who I won't name because he's in my bad books and I'm happy to be that petty) points out, although Craig Bellamy doesn't touch the ball, his immaculately-timed, precisely-angled run makes a crucial contribution to opening up space for a far slower team mate to move in on goal.
You can lambast the defending, obviously, but creating space is a priceless attribute and I recently happened upon another 'solo' goal to which Bellamy made a similar contribution.
Asking all contributors rather than Evilo specifically, has any attempt been made to find a way of charting what might be called 'off the ball assists'?
Likewise, a couple other things that would be really interesting if they haven't already been quantified would be a stat for blown defensive coverages (for midfielders as much as defenders), and a 'missed creative option' stat, to capture instances where a player doesn't see a pass that would either put a team mate into space or switch the play from the congested side of the field to the opposite side, where the subsequent pass would release someone.
I wonder, too, whether a stat could be attempted along the lines of 'expected offsides', to try and distinguish between moments when the offside player is a victim of circumstances (eg a teammate's ill-timed release, a rapid change of direction in the play that no human could reasonably react to), and instances or sheer carelessness (eg. the many strikers I've spent years screaming 'stay onside, for f***'s sake' at).
If these things exist, someone please let me know.
I wonder, too, whether a stat could be attempted along the lines of 'expected offsides', to try and distinguish between moments when the offside player is a victim of circumstances (eg a teammate's ill-timed release, a rapid change of direction in the play that no human could reasonably react to), and instances or sheer carelessness (eg. the many strikers I've spent years screaming 'stay onside, for f***'s sake' at).
If these things exist, someone please let me know.
Ad
Upcoming events
-
BET ON ONLY ONE HORSE Bewitch Stakes (Gr. 3) - KEENELAND RACE 8Wagers: 7Staked: $2,750.00Event closes- Updated:
-
-
-
-
