Statistics Thread

[robertmac43]

I don't seek out statistical insights, so I'm ignorant of what categories have been studied, but your post crystallised for me the point that none of the data in this thread touches on an essential part of the game - movement off the ball.

This feeds into the earlier debate about 'assists' and 'chances created'.

To use an example that occurred to me for obvious reasons:



In classical terms, the above is an 'individual goal'. However, as the co-commentator (who I won't name because he's in my bad books and I'm happy to be that petty) points out, although Craig Bellamy doesn't touch the ball, his immaculately-timed, precisely-angled run makes a crucial contribution to opening up space for a far slower team mate to move in on goal.

You can lambast the defending, obviously, but creating space is a priceless attribute and I recently happened upon another 'solo' goal to which Bellamy made a similar contribution.

Asking all contributors rather than Evilo specifically, has any attempt been made to find a way of charting what might be called 'off the ball assists'?

From my understanding 'run data' is still in it's infancy and no one is really tracking specific runs. There is obviously heat maps, runs, distance traveled, average speed, etc, but nothing overly specific. It's also tough to track because of how subjective it is, and there are obviously a ton of runs that don't lead to anything that would still be considered a good run.

 

[Stray Wasp]

From my understanding 'run data' is still in it's infancy and no one is really tracking specific runs. There is obviously heat maps, runs, distance traveled, average speed, etc, but nothing overly specific. It's also tough to track because of how subjective it is, and there are obviously a ton of runs that don't lead to anything that would still be considered a good run.

Quite so. There'd be some value in being able to measure why good runs don't lead to anything, though.

 

[robertmac43]

Quite so. There'd be some value in being able to measure why good runs don't lead to anything, though.

Could be telling for ball carriers. Are they missing the run? Do they opt for a safer lateral pass? etc.

I think it would be hard to track and then streamline.

 

[Cassano]

 

[YNWA14]

@Stray Wasp

I believe, though it's not accessible to us, this might be along the lines of what you were looking for:

LFC's incredible data investment which identifies potential transfer targets

The company is called SkillCorner and here are a couple excerpts of the data they track:

From being able to analyse the physical output of a player to their ability to act under pressure, pick out the right option or break the lines – all valuable when assessing potential targets.

As per the Training Ground Guru, more than a million data points across one 90-minute game can be obtained through their tool, with Liverpool able to access raw tracking data for every game across 23 competitions – which could soon be 40.

“If there was a pass at 3 minutes 42 in a particular match, then they can look at the tracking data at this exact frame and say: ‘There was this pressing on the player, on the receiver, these were the options he had,'” he explained.

“It is not really interesting to know that a player completed 90 passes during a match, but with our data you can assess every pass – whether there was a better option than the one the player took.”

Advanced analytics are likely progressing a lot right now, and it sounds like Liverpool were very much on top of that (I wouldn't be surprised if this was driven somewhat by FSG's exposure to this concept in baseball) from the onset and are investing heavily in it. Smart.

This is another article on how much it's advancing and what's available to teams already:

Training Ground Guru | Why Liverpool hired a French start-up to turn video into data

 

[Blender]

Lots of analysis on Havertz this morning in this thread. One thing is clear is that his pressing will have to improve a lot to fit in Lampard's system.

 

[Corto]

I don't seek out statistical insights, so I'm ignorant of what categories have been studied, but your post crystallised for me the point that none of the data in this thread touches on an essential part of the game - movement off the ball.

This feeds into the earlier debate about 'assists' and 'chances created'.

This is something that a lot of people don't understand. Not just the so-called casual fans, but a lot of people who are at the games every weekend.
Even people who play sunday 5-a-side etc. Off the ball movement is HUGE.

I'm using Modric as an example, as IMO off-ball movement is the biggest reason why he is (or was) so good, one of the best midfielders IMO of the last 30 years, and definitely one of the most complete ones.
But reason #1 what made him so special is that IMO he was the best midfielder I've ever watched at opening passing lanes for people.

I'm using him as an example as I've watched him his whole career, I love the guy and it's easiest for me to find examples of this, like here:



Starts at 2.10.
He opens himself to a Casemiro pass, then to Kroos, then to Benzema - ball goes to Marcelo, then Kroos again, Benzema scores off the counter.

Now, it seems easy and simple and something that any midfielder would do - but it's not. It's instinct AND the way you learn to move without the ball.
A LOT (and I mean a LOT) of quality players don't have off-ball movement down to instinct, a lot of them either don't read the game well or just don't have the habit of keeping on running after playing the ball.

Off the top of my head, Mateo Kovacic, a fantastic talent, probably Chelsea's best player this season, and a very good player as it is - just doesn't have it.
He doesn't KNOW where to move without thinking, he doesn't "feel" it.
(again, I'm using Kovacic as I've watched him his whole career)

Anyway, while I do appreciate all the stats and the web sites we have these days, I really don't think they tell the whole story and NOTHING comes close to actually watching the games.
Dudes just citing stats and watching highlights miss out on a lot of what makes football... Football.
(this isn't directed at anyone here btw, just my general opinion)

 

[Blender]

Off the top of my head, Mateo Kovacic, a fantastic talent, probably Chelsea's best player this season, and a very good player as it is - just doesn't have it.
He doesn't KNOW where to move without thinking, he doesn't "feel" it.
(again, I'm using Kovacic as I've watched him his whole career)

Have you watched Kovacic this year? I don't think anyone would argue that Kovacic is a top attacking talent, he just doesn't have that as part of his game, but as that deep playmaker that acts as a pivot between the defenders and the attackers he performed at a world class level this year. His movement on and off the ball were incredible this year, his ability to press and to always be open for a pass, his ability to progress the ball was better than any midfielder in the EPL. He was doing stuff like in 2:10 of that video all season and showed that he was a press resistant deep midfielder that we desperately needed.

I think with Kovacic is that he's played too high up the pitch for a lot of his career on the expectation that he'd be an attacking player, and I agree he doesn't have it there. His movement and ability in attacking the box just isn't good enough. I can't praise Lampard enough for shifting him into a deep role, as he was incredible back there.

 

[Stray Wasp]

@Stray Wasp

I believe, though it's not accessible to us, this might be along the lines of what you were looking for:

LFC's incredible data investment which identifies potential transfer targets

The company is called SkillCorner and here are a couple excerpts of the data they track:





Advanced analytics are likely progressing a lot right now, and it sounds like Liverpool were very much on top of that (I wouldn't be surprised if this was driven somewhat by FSG's exposure to this concept in baseball) from the onset and are investing heavily in it. Smart.

This is another article on how much it's advancing and what's available to teams already:

Training Ground Guru | Why Liverpool hired a French start-up to turn video into data

Thanks for this!

 

[Corto]

Have you watched Kovacic this year? I don't think anyone would argue that Kovacic is a top attacking talent, he just doesn't have that as part of his game, but as that deep playmaker that acts as a pivot between the defenders and the attackers he performed at a world class level this year. His movement on and off the ball were incredible this year, his ability to press and to always be open for a pass, his ability to progress the ball was better than any midfielder in the EPL. He was doing stuff like in 2:10 of that video all season and showed that he was a press resistant deep midfielder that we desperately needed.

I think with Kovacic is that he's played too high up the pitch for a lot of his career on the expectation that he'd be an attacking player, and I agree he doesn't have it there. His movement and ability in attacking the box just isn't good enough. I can't praise Lampard enough for shifting him into a deep role, as he was incredible back there.

Yeah, I saw a lot of Chelsea games this season, partly because of Kova, partly because their games were exciting... The anti-Sarriball, if you will.
Lampard needs to sort out his defensive scheme, but offensively, his team is exciting and potent - and should only get better with Werner, Havertz and Ziyech coming in.

Part of the problem with Kovacic is that he seems to be artificially limited to one area of the pitch. Right now, he's a great deep-lying playmaker, who is actually very good defensively.
Like I said, I thought he was possibly Chelsea's MVP last season, or at least top-3 with Azpi and maybe Mount.

When he started out, he was basically played as a '10'. At Inter, he was mostly playing as the classic trequartista and he was making runs and scoring goals.
He moved to Madrid, he grew better and better in his role as either a box-to-box mid or a mix of regista and a defensive midfielder (he was the alternative to Casemiro).

However, as he grew into that deeper role, his offensive instincts seem to have drained away. He'll do wonders up until he gets to about 25m from the opposition goal... And then just stops.
Not always, not entirely, but you can tell that the instinct to run into empty pockets of space, to open himself up for a scoring chance... Isn't there.

However, if Chelsea play 4-2-3-1 next season, with Kovacic and Kante as double pivot, that's as good a pairing as you can get IMO. Like you said, at that actual role, he can be absolutely top tier.
With Ziyech, Havertz, Pulisic/Mount and Werner up front, they could be a serious threat. Maybe not to win the title just yet, but a real good exciting young team.

 

[Blender]

 

[Evilo]

Hey I told you all of this already

 

[Vasilevskiy]

Then you have this comment:

 

[Evilo]

Damn people, I told you all of this !!!

 

[Blender]

Then you have this comment:

Probably why Chelsea are loaning him to Germany, still needs to improve and isn't good enough to play here.

 

[Blender]

 

[Stray Wasp]

Never mind Neuer, turning him into Ben Foster would be a signal improvement, and helpful to Chelsea's progression.

 

[Blender]

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Yes, the first thing to describe Kai is his height lol.

 

[Blender]

Yes, the first thing to describe Kai is his height lol.

Well he is 6'2"

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Well he is 6'2"

When you are wizard you height is irrelevant.

 

[robertmac43]

Interesting graphic; Solly March being here was surprising to me!

 

[robertmac43]

Let's go Webster!

 

[Blender]

 

[Jersey Fresh]

They added that note regarding Wolves about letting teams come on to them, but I think the same applies to West Ham. Also needs to take into account West Ham's fixtures where they've already played Arsenal, Tottenham, City, Liverpool, and United (plus Leicester/Wolves).