Statistics Thread

[YNWA14]

I figure having a thread like this to house statistics that apply to more than one league, or aren't necessarily current, etc. could go here.

Saw this on another site and thought it was pretty interesting. It's a 'statistical analysis' of a lot of players over the top 4 leagues in Europe.

I think the ratings are a bit skewed toward offence, but really interesting none-the-less.

Click to read more...

 

[Vasilevskiy]

What determines a clearance rating, or a block rating, or a general passing rating?

 

[YNWA14]

What determines a clearance rating, or a block rating, or a general passing rating?

Yeah I was interested in finding this out too. I've inquired and will see what the ratings are composed of.

 

[hatterson]

Are you able to post the raw data for this instead of pictures? Really hard to sort through in image form.

 

[YNWA14]

What determines a clearance rating, or a block rating, or a general passing rating?

So it looks like what the guy did is go to all the 'popular' advanced stats sites (whoscored, understat, squawka, sofascore, maybe others) and compiled on a per 90m basis (scraping and manual). He then weighted the performance by the ELO of the opponent and came up with these scores. Seems like a lot of work, and pretty interesting (so the scores are meant to represent a relative ability taking into account performance vs. level of opponent). He also set the benchmark for each category by giving a 10 to whomever was 'best' in it and then normalizing the other players around that player's value.

Are you able to post the raw data for this instead of pictures? Really hard to sort through in image form.

I requested it so I'll let you know if it comes through.

 

[Havre]

What is "blocks rating"?

And what is x? Normally I would have thought that was "expected"? But that sounds a bit odd considering there is no Assist rating, but only xAssists.

 

[robertmac43]

Love it. I have been trying to get more into the analytical side of the game.

Do you have a link to where the image came from? or a legend for the graph or something like that.

 

[YNWA14]

Love it. I have been trying to get more into the analytical side of the game.

Do you have a link to where the image came from? or a legend for the graph or something like that.

There was no legend posted so I'm not 100% sure on some of the columns where I'm just making an educated guess, and I'm not sure if I'm supposed to link to the site, but I'll PM it to you.

Understat is one that also has x-stats.

 

[robertmac43]

This is definitely something that shows the eye-test and analytics need to be used together. Mustafi has solid stats, slightly better than what would likely be average. Yet if you watch him you would easily notice the errors in his game make him far less effective then some of the defenders with worse defending stats.

 

[YNWA14]

This is definitely something that shows the eye-test and analytics need to be used together. Mustafi has solid stats, slightly better than what would likely be average. Yet if you watch him you would easily notice the errors in his game make him far less effective then some of the defenders with worse defending stats.

Yep, and the guy who put it together did mention that he hadn't yet been able to incorporate certain aspects of the game into his analysis, specifically defensive errors leading to goals or extremely dangerous chances. Mustafi and Xhaka I think are two that we know aren't as good as this chart shows.

But on the other hand I do feel like these kinds of things can help step away a bit from our biases. If we go into a match watching and thinking nothing but negative things of a player we're going to focus on those, and there's always a ton of stuff going on so other more positive things can be easily missed. Despite what some would have you believe nobody is completely objective whether it's their team or not; there are always personal biases even just based on what you think of a player that influences what you see.

So while the eye test is great, and stats are not a replacement for it, it has its many flaws as well.

 

[Havre]

I appreciate the effort and work put in to this, but it is quite useless to me when you don´t have any weighting of categories.

I don´t want this to become a thread about Firmino, I like him a lot, but he is probably the clearest example. His best skill is "blocks" and that makes him the 3rd best forward in the world? Probably the least important category for any forward (assuming it means shot and maybe blocking for passes - even if blocking a pass should/will often become an interception - I presume).

 

[robertmac43]

Yep, and the guy who put it together did mention that he hadn't yet been able to incorporate certain aspects of the game into his analysis, specifically defensive errors leading to goals or extremely dangerous chances. Mustafi and Xhaka I think are two that we know aren't as good as this chart shows.

But on the other hand I do feel like these kinds of things can help step away a bit from our biases. If we go into a match watching and thinking nothing but negative things of a player we're going to focus on those, and there's always a ton of stuff going on so other more positive things can be easily missed. Despite what some would have you believe nobody is completely objective whether it's their team or not; there are always personal biases even just based on what you think of a player that influences what you see.

So while the eye test is great, and stats are not a replacement for it, it has its many flaws as well.

I would say that I don't hate Mustafi as much as most Arsenal fans, down for a replacement to come in but he is not the be all end all of Arsenal winning championships or getting top 4 in a given season. In the case of Mustafi he has the stats of someone solid, but the mental errors that lead to goals are easy to remember over the little things that prevent goals. Who knows, maybe Arsenal allow the same amount of goals by having a defender who does not have the mental lapses but does lose more duels or battles in the air, etc.

I will say it does not help the eye test seeing Mustafi raise his arms up in the air or point at someone else after an error occurs.

 

[YNWA14]

CB: 1 - van Dijk (3.94), 2 - Boly (3.55), 3 - Laporte (3.31), 4 - Maguire (3.13), 5 - Bamba (2.96)
FB: 1 - Pereira (3.62), 2 - Digne (3.58), 3 - TAA (3.53), 4 - Doherty (3.48), 5 - Alonso (3.4)
DM: 1 - Fernandinho (4.23), 2 - Ndidi (3.63), 3 - Milivojevic (3.13), 4 - Gueye (3.04), 5 - Jorginho (3.04)
CM: 1 - Pogba (3.4), 2 - Moutinho (3.36) 3 - Kante (3.1), 4 - Hojbjerg (2.68), 5 - Cook (2.54)
AM: 1 - D. Silva (4.11), 2 - B. Silva (4.07), 3 - Maddison (3.26), 4 - Sigurdsson (2.96), 5 - Eriksen (2.87)
W: 1 - Hazard (4.09), 2 - Sterling (4.08), 3 - Salah (3.23), 4 - Mane (3.19), 5 - F. Anderson (3.01)
ST: 1 - Aguero (3.49), 2 - Firmino (3.31), 3 - Aubameyang (2.88), 4 - Kane (2.80), 5 - Rashford (2.78)

These were the top 5 in each position in the PL last season based on this sheet, btw. Still crazy how snubbed Hazard seemed.

I appreciate the effort and work put in to this, but it is quite useless to me when you don´t have any weighting of categories.

I don´t want this to become a thread about Firmino, I like him a lot, but he is probably the clearest example. His best skill is "blocks" and that makes him the 3rd best forward in the world? Probably the least important category for any forward (assuming it means shot and maybe blocking for passes - even if blocking a pass should/will often become an interception - I presume).

Blocks, if it's the stat I believe it is, are typically when a player blocks a shot that would be headed on goal (or near). So while you may not value a forward that contributes a ton offensively but is also head and shoulders above his peers in defensive aspects, others might. Weighting would be difficult in that way, though I'm sure it could be done and may be necessary to fully appreciate. Though again, all of these scores are meant to be relative to their peers. Especially on a team like Klopp's where Firmino is expected to do everything and not just score being strong across the board rather than just offensively is a big boon (his chance creation is pretty high also, relative to other strikers, and he isn't the main goal threat so it his xg/goals would be expected to be lower). Obviously role and system will have an influence on these; personally I think a striker that creates a lot of chances, scores, and still makes it back to stop players from getting shots off on net is pretty awesome.

 

[Havre]

I could have accepted interceptions and maybe tackling I guess. Even if that is also a poor metric for a forward. Often forwards will put defenders under pressure allowing you midfield players to make the interception - the better the pressure from forwards the more likely the pass is intercepted by someone else.

I used to coach and rather than the front 3 making a poor interception that might lead to a throw in I would encourage them to allow the defender to make the pass under heavy pressure.

Firmino is obviously very good at that part. Which is important, but that doesn’t really show either in those stats. Blocks for some reason sticks out.

Will be interesting to see if there are new iterations. Van Dijk, Messi etc being the best makes sense, but so much of the rest makes no sense at all. Mustafi is already mentioned, but there are so many. I believe weighting is part of the issue.

 

[YNWA14]

Those are your personal biases though. Why are interceptions or tackles poor metrics for a forward? The team that just won the CL has arguably the best forward in the world in those aspects while still being effective offensively. It could be systemic or it could be that a team is more effective when they have players that can contribute to all phases of play at a high level. If numbers don't support your personal view of how something should look, or be represented, that doesn't mean the numbers are always wrong...sometimes you need a change of perspective.

Of course that doesn't mean these rankings are the be all end all. They're just another perspective and some additional, incomplete, information. If you're looking for something to tell you that Kane is better than Firmino I guess you'd need to look for something else.

 

[Havre]

I knew this would happen as soon as I brought up Firmino.

I even explained to you why I don´t think it is a good metric. I honestly don´t know what more I could do trying to engage in a reasonable conversation with you? Instead of coming up with a counter-argument you go on about me needing to "change my perspective".

And we are not even talking about those metrics. Two metrics´Firminio is better than most forwards in, but not by any distance, Aguero as an example gets a better score, we are talking about blocks.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

I like quite a lot of StatsBombs work:

Articles | StatsBomb

 

[Havre]

StatsBombs is brilliant.

Apart from their radar scores for forwards do not include blocks. So with my new perspective I find that page pointless. I should delete my bookmark.

 

[YNWA14]

I knew this would happen as soon as I brought up Firmino.

I even explained to you why I don´t think it is a good metric. I honestly don´t know what more I could do trying to engage in a reasonable conversation with you? Instead of coming up with a counter-argument you go on about me needing to "change my perspective".

And we are not even talking about those metrics. Two metrics´Firminio is better than most forwards in, but not by any distance, Aguero as an example gets a better score, we are talking about blocks.

I offered a counter argument, which you ignored, and then you went on about how other defensive stats are not a good metric for a forward (without explaining why, again). I never said you needed to change your perspective or that these metrics were what should be accepted.

If you actually have a reason as to why tackles, interceptions and blocks are poor metrics for forwards I'm all ears and always looking to learn.

 

[robertmac43]

I was surprised to see Dunk so low on the list, especially considering Duffy is decently rated here. They really seem to like Duffy's aerial presence which is well deserved. I just thought the two would be more similarly rated.

 

[Havre]

Muller better than Salah. Xhaka better than Busquets.

I already described why - in quite some detail.

I like the idea of making such a list, but this one is just bad. Worse than I thought at first glance. And one of the reasons might be the lack of weighting.

 

[YNWA14]

This is just a compilation of categories weighted by opposition and ranked relative to their peers. I don't believe it's meant to say one player is better than another, but just their performance level in each category for last season. Weighting would need to be done on a case by case basis since what each manager expects from their players and finds important is different for each of them. Big Sam and Klopp looking at this list may take two very different things from it. Hence why I said additional, incomplete information.

 

[robertmac43]

Would tend to agree that this data is not good for comparing who is the best player but it solid for comparing individual stats of players to each other. Just look at it one stat at a time.

 

[Havre]

Would tend to agree that this data is not good for comparing who is the best player but it solid for comparing individual stats of players to each other. Just look at it one stat at a time.

Yeah. That is fine.

Would have made more sense to me that way if the list was grouped according to type of player instead of ranked based on the total sum.

Tifo football (youtube channel) and StatsBombs will often back up a recommendation by comparing some key stats for a specific position. Especially the people at StatsBombs I think are generally very good at picking up key aspects of a player. Whenever I read about Spurs or Spursplayers on there (a team and players I know well) I more or less always find myself in agreement with their assessment.

 

[YNWA14]

Oof, the image was deleted. Lame.

Here's a new one though:

Progressive defined as a dribble or pass that moves the ball forward at least 10 yards, or that goes into the penalty area.