Post-Game Talk: Stars 2, Pens 1 - The Razor Made It Bearable Edition

[billybudd]

I hate Scuderi as much as anyone but Sid is the one that followed him into the corner.

Need to watch the video to understand what went wrong here. Scuds and Perron were skating around like someone unplugged their oxygen tanks and everybody got caught up failing to cover for them.

 

[ColePens]

I get that.. I just don't see it happening very often. The average offensive flow these days involves possessing the puck for a prolonged period of time before dishing it off to the point, where Scuderi/Martin invariably fire a weak wrister that either misses the net or gets blocked. Or trying cross-crease passes that invariably get picked off (#87 is biggest offender).

There just aren't that many great offensive opportunities. I mean take the game against NJD the other night - how many truly good opportunities did we generate, despite the fact that we possessed the puck for practically the whole game.

We're a team that thinks pass first - that's painfully evident at this point. And when we do get pucks on the net, it's not a quality scoring chance more often than not.

Well yeah. Your assessment is correct. I think it's insane that we force passes to the weak side d-man all the time. It's pointless. We are 15 feet away from the net.... but make a sick pass to Scuds to throw a weak wrister on net w/ no traffic and the goalie well set. That **** ain't ever going to work.

Nonetheless... it's just a total disconnect of what the coach wants them to do, what they are doing, and we know nothing will happen because we can't bench any of the get along gang.

It's all Despres fault for being inconsistent!

Jesse Marshall @jmarshfof
The Penguins have the highest shot-differential of any team in the NHL in March. They have the highest scoring chance differential as well.

Jesse Marshall @jmarshfof
No team has been better in possession for the month of March than the Penguins. They have the 4th highest number of raw scoring chances.

I recognize that not thinking doomsday thoughts at all times isn't much in vogue on this board, but good lord are people overreacting to a slump.

And this is why I believe stats are ****ing worthless. They are good to keep in mind and definitely review, but should never take over what you see on the ice.

As much as I appreciate Jesse and what he does, I couldn't disagree with the view on hockey more. The eyes tell the story. If you showed those stats to someone who doesn't watch the Pens, you'd think we were on a win streak.

 

[billybudd]

I understand that it is a common scheme, and I think it started either during or right after the California trip.

Johnston's system already had the wings (who aren't great defenders for the most part - Spaling and Winnik as exceptions) covering too much space, playing extremely low, struggling on covering the point, and having a difficult time with the puck in the transition areas of the zone.

Adding more responsibilities to the wingers who are already struggling and confused seems like a poor choice especially because as you said the team had been playing a slightly different zone in that situation the rest of the year.

It seems like the coaches noted in the weaknesses in the previous zone defense and switched to this one to cover the problem of the defenders losing the puck battles in the corners and behind the goal. It has introduced a new weakness into the system especially as the defenders are better defenders than most of the wings.

The scheme itself isn't intrinsically wrong although I think it might be open to more exploitation especially in the Metro. It's more of a problem of does the scheme fit and can the team implement it successfully in a relatively short time period.

The root problem in both cases is that there's not enough speed on the wings. Dupuis getting hurt, Kunitz losing a step, Adams being Adams and Bennett never learning how to skate makes it difficult to cover the entire defensive zone, no matter what scheme you run. If Kunitz, Adams and Bennett were Grabner, Etem and Hagelin, we don't run into these issues, especially the "pinned in our zone forever" thing we were experiencing before we started overloading half the ice.

Although, even though I don't like him, Megna might be able to help us right now if we can figure out some way to call him up.

 

[drpepper]

The root problem in both cases is that there's not enough speed on the wings. Dupuis getting hurt, Kunitz losing a step, Adams being Adams and Bennett never learning how to skate makes it difficult to cover the entire defensive zone, no matter what scheme you run. If Kunitz, Adams and Bennett were Grabner, Etem and Hagelin, we don't run into these issues, especially the "pinned in our zone forever" thing we were experiencing before we started overloading half the ice.

Although, even though I don't like him, Megna might be able to help us right now if we can figure out some way to call him up.

I 100% agree that the problem is speed on the wings. Even the other wingers, Perron, Hornqvist, Bennett, Downie, Spaling, all struggle with less than ideal speed and skating, and Spaling is the only one of the group with good defensive instincts to take the place of repetition and experience in the system at this point. Winnik and Comeau are probably the fastest skaters out of the group of wings.

It's the same reason why the forecheck struggles. The wings aren't fast enough to get in, cover, and get back if they have too.

 

[billybudd]

I 100% agree that the problem is speed on the wings. Even the other wingers, Perron, Hornqvist, Bennett, Downie, Spaling, all struggle with less than ideal speed and skating, and Spaling is the only one of the group with good defensive instincts to take the place of repetition and experience in the system at this point. Winnik and Comeau are probably the fastest skaters out of the group of wings.

It's the same reason why the forecheck struggles. The wings aren't fast enough to get in, cover, and get back if they have too.

Hornqvist and, to a lesser extent, Downie, make up some ground with anticipation, but yeah. Not a big group and not a quick group. That Winnik and Comeau are the closest thing you have to burners at wing is pathetic.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Hornqvist and, to a lesser extent, Downie, make up some ground with anticipation, but yeah. Not a big group and not a quick group. That Winnik and Comeau are the closest thing you have to burners at wing is pathetic.

Yep we are a slow team

 

[Gurglesons]

Yep we are a slow team

Haven't we been a slow team since 2013 when we purposefully traded for slow players?

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

"Slow, soft and no talent is no way to go through life, son."

 

[MtlPenFan]

You are partially right and partially wrong. You are right in saying the team is not playing for MJ. If I played you the quote from Tocchet about how to get this powerplay working, you'd think he writes on HF and we'd all be screaming "YES!" He is preaching it that way and the team isn't listening. They refuse to move. Sid refuses to move off that half wall.

And this is where you are wrong. It's not a ******** system. That's how the NHL is. Everything is so schematic. However, MJ cannot coach his system in a way the players will play and holds nobody accountable. Accountability is JUST as important as being able to coach your system to a team and have them actually go out and play it.

In a simplistic way - that's the big issue. Coach is coaching - players aren't listening - coaches aren't holding anyone accountable for not listening (thus demanding no respect) - and the organization refuses to do anything up top. It's an endless cycle.

It still amounts to bad coaching.

 

[AquaticBirdman]

Shooting from the middle on the PP could be a radical idea for them to explore.

Would make sense if our point shooters didn't need about 24-48 hours of pondering in order to actually get a shot off. Why do you think other teams are so good at blocking our shots?

 

[Sam Spade]

Why? Aren't you a Caps fan?

Ovechkin fan.

As much as I love Malkin my dream would have been Ovechkin in '04 and Crosby in '05.

 

[Sideline]

Well yeah. Your assessment is correct. I think it's insane that we force passes to the weak side d-man all the time. It's pointless. We are 15 feet away from the net.... but make a sick pass to Scuds to throw a weak wrister on net w/ no traffic and the goalie well set. That **** ain't ever going to work.

Nonetheless... it's just a total disconnect of what the coach wants them to do, what they are doing, and we know nothing will happen because we can't bench any of the get along gang.

It's all Despres fault for being inconsistent!



And this is why I believe stats are ****ing worthless. They are good to keep in mind and definitely review, but should never take over what you see on the ice.

As much as I appreciate Jesse and what he does, I couldn't disagree with the view on hockey more. The eyes tell the story. If you showed those stats to someone who doesn't watch the Pens, you'd think we were on a win streak.

I defy any advanced stats acolyte to tell me how we're playing well when we only have 3 defencemen capable of making a breakout pass. Explain to me how the goals are going to come for Kunitz and Sutter when they're won the same number of puck battles this month as Mario.

This team is beyond lucky that Fleury just so happened to have a career year this season. They'd miss the playoffs by a mile with average goal tending.

 

[ColePens]

[/B]

It still amounts to bad coaching.

Coaching, yes. Players, yes. Organization, yes.

All are accountable.

 

[Gurglesons]

Ovechkin fan.

As much as I love Malkin my dream would have been Ovechkin in '04 and Crosby in '05.

Would be nice to see Malkin win more than one cup with the Caps having Backstrom and Malkin down the pivot?

But, hey regular season trophies!

 

[Gurglesons]

Coaching, yes. Players, yes. Organization, yes.

All are accountable.

Are we the Vancouver Canucks from last year?

Or are we the Washington Capitals from the last couple years?

 

[MtlPenFan]

I defy any advanced stats acolyte to tell me how we're playing well when we only have 3 defencemen capable of making a breakout pass. Explain to me how the goals are going to come for Kunitz and Sutter when they're won the same number of puck battles this month as Mario.

This team is beyond lucky that Fleury just so happened to have a career year this season. They'd miss the playoffs by a mile with average goal tending.

I'd settle for defensemen that can do more than fire cream puffs at the net.

And Christ almighty do I ever hate Scuderi being a mouthpiece after games. Can't ****ing stand it.

 

[ColePens]

Are we the Vancouver Canucks from last year?

Or are we the Washington Capitals from the last couple years?

I would say the Pittsburgh Penguins of the last 5 years

 

[Gurglesons]

I would say the Pittsburgh Penguins of the last 5 years

I guess you're right. I want to be a blind fan and just think that some of these situations are just teams outplaying us, but we are really sabotaging our roster nearly every year.

 

[SEALBound]

I 100% agree that the problem is speed on the wings. Even the other wingers, Perron, Hornqvist, Bennett, Downie, Spaling, all struggle with less than ideal speed and skating, and Spaling is the only one of the group with good defensive instincts to take the place of repetition and experience in the system at this point. Winnik and Comeau are probably the fastest skaters out of the group of wings.

It's the same reason why the forecheck struggles. The wings aren't fast enough to get in, cover, and get back if they have too.

Absolutely. A lot of people mention the "identity" of the team. Are we a puck possession team, are we a hard forechecking team? What are we. We need to identify that, then build. I put that on the coaches. The inability to build a system around your players.

What we've done is mismatched the players and the system. If the intent is to have a puck possession team, we need the skill sets to accomplish such...we don't. If the intent is to have a dump and chase, we need speedy wingers...we don't. If the intent is to have a hard nosed forecheck team, we need big tough gritty players...we don't.

Essentially what we have is a 4 year old playing in their room dressed as a cowboy astronaut that wondering why no one takes him seriously as a fireman.

Perron can be any of the above.
Hornqvist can be the rough tough gritty guy but lacks serious speed.
Comeau can be the speedy guy maybe...but can't be the bruiser.
Kunitz is awful at all three.
Spaling could be the speedy guy maybe but lacks skill for puck possession and the size and strength to be gritty
Bennett could be the skill guy but lacks speed and grit
Winnik could be the be any of the above at a reduced 3rd line level
Adams is awful at all three
Downie could be any of the above minus maybe the speed. He's got decent speed.

Point being...we don't have the right combo of players to have any sort of effective system. No real speed to speak of, not enough skill for puck possession, not enough grit to forecheck hard.

 

[Shrimper]

7 points ahead of Ottawa. They have a game in hand. Eek.

 

[drpepper]

Hornqvist and, to a lesser extent, Downie, make up some ground with anticipation, but yeah. Not a big group and not a quick group. That Winnik and Comeau are the closest thing you have to burners at wing is pathetic.

I think the other failure of the wings on defense is having issues with puck battles on the wall (and likely one of the reasons that they changed the zone). Again, Winnik and Hornqvist are among the best on the wall. Spaling is decent, Downie is decent, Comeau is ok but frequently gets out-muscled and it goes downhill from there.

Having Comeau and Winnik as the faster skaters and Hornqvist and Winnik as the best on the boards is depressing. (Again board battles and speed explain problems on the forecheck and in the neutral zone too.)

The one good thing about the new scheme is that the centers are now released to work the boards. One of Crosby's and to some extent Malkin's talents is competing along the board which they were previously not allowed to do.

EDIT:

Absolutely. A lot of people mention the "identity" of the team. Are we a puck possession team, are we a hard forechecking team? What are we. We need to identify that, then build. I put that on the coaches. The inability to build a system around your players.

What we've done is mismatched the players and the system. If the intent is to have a puck possession team, we need the skill sets to accomplish such...we don't. If the intent is to have a dump and chase, we need speedy wingers...we don't. If the intent is to have a hard nosed forecheck team, we need big tough gritty players...we don't.

Essentially what we have is a 4 year old playing in their room dressed as a cowboy astronaut that wondering why no one takes him seriously as a fireman.

Perron can be any of the above.
Hornqvist can be the rough tough gritty guy but lacks serious speed.
Comeau can be the speedy guy maybe...but can't be the bruiser.
Kunitz is awful at all three.
Spaling could be the speedy guy maybe but lacks skill for puck possession and the size and strength to be gritty
Bennett could be the skill guy but lacks speed and grit
Winnik could be the be any of the above at a reduced 3rd line level
Adams is awful at all three
Downie could be any of the above minus maybe the speed. He's got decent speed.

Point being...we don't have the right combo of players to have any sort of effective system. No real speed to speak of, not enough skill for puck possession, not enough grit to forecheck hard.

The one thing I do really like about Johnston is that the goal of all of his systems is flexibility.

With the different styles and skill sets of Crosby and Malkin and the inevitable downgrade to the 3C & 4C (regardless of who they are), it seems like asking the whole team to plays a single style doesn't make sense.

Allow Crosby to play to his strengths of quick passes through the neutral zone or chip and chase if the neutral zone plays aren't there. Allow Malkin to carry the puck east-west and come up with his back-up plan if the neutral zone is problematic (quick passes, stretch passes, etc). Find a style or styles that the third (rush offense) and fourth lines (cycling) play relatively well and use that.

A single identity for the team in playstyle would be nice but doesn't fit Crosby and Malkin. Instead have a shared philosophy (puck possession and relentless work to re-establish possession) rather than forcing the whole team into an ill-fitting style.

 

[Sam Spade]

7 points ahead of Ottawa. They have a game in hand. Eek.

The Pens are fine, now if I was a Bruins fan…….

 

[ColePens]

Well if the trend continues of no scoring and no pts... then yes that 7 pt window will close quickly.

 

[Gurglesons]

Well if the trend continues of no scoring and no pts... then yes that 7 pt window will close quickly.

If they miss, I would love to see the fluff pieces about why we missed.

 

[IcedCapp]

Sens have three games against the Maple Leafs,too